Changing last names

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

but the husband changing his name to the wife's is not heteronormative. that's kinda my point. that's really a big fat option that men don't really do very often. and neither do the butches on this board. am I wrong?

I'm starting to feel like I'm speaking Russian here...

people say its just to come together, to have a common bond, a common name. OK. then butches can obviously take femmes names. soooo why is that the much rarer option? hello? if its ONLY a matter of sharing a name, then why is it so rare for butches here to take the femmes name? I'm not buying that "its a common name" is the *only* reason." it is*a* reason, but its not the only one or there would be far more butches with femme's last names.

OK. this was silly to try and come back to. I'm going to turn off phone and sit on hands and go to school.

My thoughts and feelings on this particular question are this: But first before I type it all out I want to clarify that these *ARE MY THOUGHTS* and they do not reflect nor are they are general blanket statement to all things marriage, butch, femme, queer, etc.


Unless femmes start taking a more aggressive approach on how they want to be viewed in the relationship be it marriage/dating/fucking the feminine part of the equation is going to automatically assumed to be less than and the props/achillades are going to be given to the masculine part of the relationship. Until Femmes/ Feminine folk start saying "hey, I don't want to follow the antiquated ritual of taking on your last name, and insist that thing go their way with their name sake or any other kind of thing then things won't change... Butches/Men/Guys are going to balk at the idea and their machismo isn't going to allow them to see beyond the *I gotta have it, own it, it's mine,* mentality. Until Femme/Women/Feminine folk start insisting that their lineage is just as important if not MORE important than their counterparts this isn't going to change. I feel butches/men/guiys/male identified folk balk at the idea or don't even consider it because we (femmes/women/femininefolk) aren't valued enough and we don't set a standard to how valuable we are. *I* personally do not care how people marry, bond, make a family. It's what makes them happy. As long as it works for them then it's all good in the hood!


I also don't think that butches/guys/men want to take on the Femme's name because it's not deemed as important/ valued/ mainstream and sometimes people don't want to stand out more than they already do so we become complacent.

As Ms Tinkerbelly pointed out, the Latino community doesn't do the last name thing much because women keep their family name, their own name and it's not shaming or looked upon as less than. I am glad I had that choice when coming into my own...

[Gráinne]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

My thoughts and feelings on this particular question are this: But first before I type it all out I want to clarify that these *ARE MY THOUGHTS* and they do not reflect nor are they are general blanket statement to all things marriage, butch, femme, queer, etc.


Unless femmes start taking a more aggressive approach on how they want to be viewed in the relationship be it marriage/dating/fucking the feminine part of the equation is going to automatically assumed to be less than and the props/achillades are going to be given to the masculine part of the relationship. Until Femmes/ Feminine folk start saying "hey, I don't want to follow the antiquated ritual of taking on your last name, and insist that thing go their way with their name sake or any other kind of thing then things won't change... Butches/Men/Guys are going to balk at the idea and their machismo isn't going to allow them to see beyond the *I gotta have it, own it, it's mine,* mentality. Until Femme/Women/Feminine folk start insisting that their lineage is just as important if not MORE important than their counterparts this isn't going to change. I feel butches/men/guiys/male identified folk balk at the idea or don't even consider it because we (femmes/women/femininefolk) aren't valued enough and we don't set a standard to how valuable we are. *I* personally do not care how people marry, bond, make a family. It's what makes them happy. As long as it works for them then it's all good in the hood!


I also don't think that butches/guys/men want to take on the Femme's name because it's not deemed as important/ valued/ mainstream and sometimes people don't want to stand out more than they already do so we become complacent.

As Ms Tinkerbelly pointed out, the Latino community doesn't do the last name thing much because women keep their family name, their own name and it's not shaming or looked upon as less than. I am glad I had that choice when coming into my own...

Lady Snow sees what HoneyBarbara was trying to say and speaks fearlessly. I too thought it was a valid and great question, one we're hesitant to face.

This isn't going to be an issue for me (as I know now), but I had another thought: If I were to marry into another culture or background, Latino, Chinese, etc., I'd be concerned that my partner's last name would have meaning and significance that I should not take on for myself. I hope someone understands what I'm getting at. Of course, were I to hypothetically consider marriage with anyone, that might be a moot point anyway. And, as HB and Snow said, why automatically my name in the hopper?

I reluctantly changed my name when I got married. Now, my kids, my career, and my life are all in that name. I haven't had my maiden name for 20 years, and I haven't "been" that woman for even longer, so I don't feel a need to "go back".

[bright_arrow]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

My thoughts and feelings on this particular question are this: But first before I type it all out I want to clarify that these *ARE MY THOUGHTS* and they do not reflect nor are they are general blanket statement to all things marriage, butch, femme, queer, etc.


Unless femmes start taking a more aggressive approach on how they want to be viewed in the relationship be it marriage/dating/fucking the feminine part of the equation is going to automatically assumed to be less than and the props/achillades are going to be given to the masculine part of the relationship. Until Femmes/ Feminine folk start saying "hey, I don't want to follow the antiquated ritual of taking on your last name, and insist that thing go their way with their name sake or any other kind of thing then things won't change... Butches/Men/Guys are going to balk at the idea and their machismo isn't going to allow them to see beyond the *I gotta have it, own it, it's mine,* mentality. Until Femme/Women/Feminine folk start insisting that their lineage is just as important if not MORE important than their counterparts this isn't going to change. I feel butches/men/guiys/male identified folk balk at the idea or don't even consider it because we (femmes/women/femininefolk) aren't valued enough and we don't set a standard to how valuable we are. *I* personally do not care how people marry, bond, make a family. It's what makes them happy. As long as it works for them then it's all good in the hood!


I also don't think that butches/guys/men want to take on the Femme's name because it's not deemed as important/ valued/ mainstream and sometimes people don't want to stand out more than they already do so we become complacent.

As Ms Tinkerbelly pointed out, the Latino community doesn't do the last name thing much because women keep their family name, their own name and it's not shaming or looked upon as less than. I am glad I had that choice when coming into my own...

So to sort of sum it up: Unless we (femmes) voice and take a stand against something that's been ingrained in most of us since we were young, we basically "default" to it?

In psychology we were discussing how there are things we "know" that we can't say how we know, things that were ingrained in us when we were young that we never question. This thread reminds me of that reading.

I obviously can't answer for why butches "laugh" at the option of taking their partner's name. I think it just depends on the person. Same way there are femme's that would prefer to keep their last name. Perhaps some butches view themselves as masculine and equate masculinity in part with retaining their own identity. I can call my wife Daddy all I want and we can have sex using toys resembling phallic symbols that some would scoff at (lesbians? toys that looks like dicks? oh my, say it isn't so! imo - i rather use one that looks like a dick instead of a dolphin, but i regress..), but she is female-identified at the end of day and okay with that. Does that explain why she would consider the option of taking my last name had I suggested it? I don't know. I don't think being masculine-identified automatically means you won't change your last name, but does it mean the majority of masculine-identified won't? I don't have an answer for that.

I think there are other factors to take into account as well, such as if they have a connection to their last name (only sibling with it, family has strong roots and is proud of their name, it's a cultural 'thing'- could not think of the appropriate word here). I just don't think it's as cut and dry as "you're butch/transman/masculine-identified/whatever" and that is why you're less likely to take your partner's name. That might be part of it, might not, but I think there are other factors to look at too.

That is the extent of my picking it apart.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Conditioning, we've all been conditioned that male = superior. The engrained lack of value in women is normal and we somehow have become accepting. Blood lineage to some folks is important, if you ask a group of women what sex they would prefer if they had a child most would say "a boy" because it's thought and believed that male carries more weight in the passing of the name, which to me makes zero sense since women are givers of life.

There are probably hundreds of factors as to why we take on the name of the spouse but the one I keep coming back to is that whole primal Clan of the Cavebear stuff where women mean nothing unless someone/something else is attached to them be it via marriage, child bearing or feminine presentation...

Great dialogue!



P.S. - I'm still on camp do what makes you and your family feel good, the other stuff is going to take lifetimes to change/pick apart/ examine/etc

[bright_arrow]

I've noticed since I've gotten married, when I have to give my last name the person requesting it often tilts their head, furrows their brow and says "Isaac? But you're a redhead, surely you're Irish, so you must be married!"

I've never looked at someone and even questioned their last name and how it did/didn't match their appearance.

Though, we had a regular customer at Lowe's and her last name was Shoemaker. That did tickle me a little bit.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

P.S. - I'm still on camp do what makes you and your family feel good, the other stuff is going to take lifetimes to change/pick apart/ examine/etc

-- Me too --

[Martina]

Pretty much every tradition associated with marriage is heteronormative, if not outright patriarchal. So, do what works for you, what feels yummy.

I like my name fine, but it's my father's name, not my mother's. If I want to get cultural feminist about it all, I should change it to some name reflecting the history of women in my family. Not sure what it would be.

Using the word "wife" a lot can get to me actually, referring to a wife of any gender. It suggests appendage, help-mate and all that stuff. And sometimes the way some people use and overuse it gives me the shivers. I have never used it. I like partner. But I see the joy it brings others, of every ilk, and I am all for their using it. My reaction is mine.

But, strangely, the name change doesn't bother me. And I would consider it in either direction. I like family. It's magic to me how they form and seem inevitable, as if they have always been since the beginning of time.

[bright_arrow]

Originally Posted by Martina

Pretty much every tradition associated with marriage is heteronormative, if not outright patriarchal. So, do what works for you, what feels yummy.

I like my name fine, but it's my father's name, not my mother's. If I want to get cultural feminist about it all, I should change it to some name reflecting the history of women in my family. Not sure what it would be.

Using the word "wife" a lot can get to me actually, referring to a wife of any gender. It suggests appendage, help-mate and all that stuff. And sometimes the way some people use and overuse it gives me the shivers. I have never used it. I like partner. But I see the joy it brings others, of every ilk, and I am all for their using it. My reaction is mine.

But, strangely, the name change doesn't bother me. And I would consider it in either direction. I like family. It's magic to me how they form and seem inevitable, as if they have always been since the beginning of time.

Bard often introduces me as "This is my wife Shannon/Have you met my wife Shannon?" but it is not ownership as much as she is just so happy I said yes (or so I think) And, it helps alleviate issues that could arise when we are at places like the doctor's.. With our age difference, it is also a way to clarify I am her spouse. I think sometimes it is also like a shield - so who you are talking to doesn't get the chance to ask our relation to each other. I have used it with creepy people at work when she has stopped by "Oh, that's my wife."

I understand some people do not go the marriage route for similar reasons as well, and I have absolutely no opinion or judgement on what others deem appropriate for themselves, but for us it is more out of love (we were going to have a ceremony before it was deemed legal anyways). Now I see perks - combined auto insurance, joint access to our bank account, being able to include her income with my measley one for home purchases.. alas, that is a whole different

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Martina

Pretty much every tradition associated with marriage is heteronormative, if not outright patriarchal. So, do what works for you, what feels yummy.

I like my name fine, but it's my father's name, not my mother's. If I want to get cultural feminist about it all, I should change it to some name reflecting the history of women in my family. Not sure what it would be.

Using the word "wife" a lot can get to me actually, referring to a wife of any gender. It suggests appendage, help-mate and all that stuff. And sometimes the way some people use and overuse it gives me the shivers. I have never used it. I like partner. But I see the joy it brings others, of every ilk, and I am all for their using it. My reaction is mine.

But, strangely, the name change doesn't bother me. And I would consider it in either direction. I like family. It's magic to me how they form and seem inevitable, as if they have always been since the beginning of time.

<complete aside>

Wife just means "woman." that's the orgin/meaning for the word. It's dutch. I got called "wife" in holland even before getting married. Other people put ownership on it.

In Medieval times in the UK, marriage was never ownership unless you had standing and money. This was before the church got involved. It was two people saying "I marry you". That's it. The only time it was about "arrangement" or ownership was for the people who owned substantial property, and needed standing. To Divorce? you were basically fucked.

I think we can reclaim it back to what it was before the church - if we are talking white european marriage. Personally, I'm white euro, so that's really
the only one I can actually talk about. My marriage was way less "normal" than most people's "not married" live together in a house with kids and a car. So I did get a bit arsey about people (not you Martina, I meant some well meaning but idiot friends of mine) telling me I was "buying into the unconsidered lifestyle of sexist marraige" when they moved in with their partner, got a bank loan, got another car, had a kid, and were talking about how they were going to do their garden. Fucking mind blowing. I'm living in a genderqueer political house with 11 people, stuffing holes in the walls with socks, the window sash ripping off when I close the window, mold down the walls, yet ANOTHER FUCKING HOUSE MEETING about fucking BEANS, some yoga retreat traveler from germany I don't know the name of sleeping on the couch, I'm making a living from sex work cause the recession is killing us and I can't find a contract job, and my wife is trying to get to amsterdam to help with her dad dying of cancer. We have no cars, no kids, and no pets. So... REALLY?

This is why I'm not trying to pick on individuals. I'm only trying to talk about a trend.

If anyone wants a great docu on the history of marriage in the UK during medieval times, let me know and I'll send you the link to download. BBC program.
</complete aside>

[~ocean]

hmmm I can see why so many ppl have issues with taking someone's last name as yours as a unified couple ~ I took my wife's last name , she was proud to share ~ and yes she bought all kinds of things w. our last name on it ~ the feeling I felt was not being owned but more as an honor ~ may not be right for everyone soooooooo grls do the - < system and stay connected )) ~