Pressurised to transition.

[Merlin]

Alot of butches I know are going through gender re-assignment surgery to become male,they are at varying stages of this.

My question is this :
Butches have you ever felt pressurised to have a sex change?

Have you ever felt it off other butches/transguys who want you to follow the path they have set ?

Everyone welcome to answer but I would like to hear off the butches too.

[dark_crystal]

Originally Posted by Merlin

Alot of butches I know are going through gender re-assignment surgery to become male,they are at varying stages of this.

My question is this :
Butches have you ever felt pressurised to have a sex change?

Have you ever felt it off other butches/transguys who want you to follow the path they have set ?

Everyone welcome to answer but I would like to hear off the butches too.

You go first! Do you feel pressured?

[Corkey]

First Butch is a gender and so is Transgendered, they are not the same. So if a Butch feels they want to transition to an FtM, then their gender is fluctuating.

I don't feel pressured by any of my TG or FtM friends. We're all individuals and we all have different life knowledge.

[Dreamer]

None of my TG or FtM friends have ever pressured me into transitioning. They have all spoken openly and honestly about what they have been through or what they are going through.
As Corkey said we are all individuals and everyone I know respects the choices made as well as respecting everyone for who they are.

[Strappie]

I have a few FTM and TG friends. I can honestly say they have NEVER even spoken to me in such a manor. That would be like someone telling me I should become straight. Nobody has ever asked me to become straight.

In my opinion: If someone is putting pressure on you to "transition" they are NOT right in the head.

Now if they are asking me questions about "who" I am, that is much different then pressuring me to "transition."

[Lynn]

Not a butch, but...

my partner, who considers herself to be a butch woman, considers her gender to be female, not butch. It really depends upon the person. I am femme, but that isn't *my* gender. Others may identify differently. My partner is a butch woman whose sexual preference is feminine women or femmes.

As a butch woman, with very masculine qualities, she felt pressured to transition when she was in her twenties. Not from peer pressure from others, but due to her religious upbringing. She felt that it was sinful for her to be a woman, desiring other women. She felt that if she transitioned she would then be a man, and her desire for women wouldn't be a sin. Simplistic view, maybe, but that was her reality at the time. Fortunately, as she came to develop her own truths and beliefs, she became more accepting of herself, and now says she's glad that she didn't transition, as she loves being a woman who partners with other women.

[AtLast]

This is a very sensitive issue. Personally, I have not felt this pressure from trans guys online or in real time. I have had an association with transgendered people since the 1960's. And I have an intergendered first cousin. This has been part of my life for a very long time. Yet, as a non-trans FIB, I claim no expertise around issues such as this.

I have, however, felt some pressure from femmes to transition. Now, these are femmes from real-time dating and not one of them (there are 3) are members here. I know that this is also a sensitive statement, as well. I mean no negativity toward any femme by this.

I can also say that I have dated a couple of femmes that wanted to know if I had considered transitioning and were very clear that if I was, they were not for me (again, not members here). LOL, dating again has been pretty crazy! Right now, I ham taking a break from it.

To be honest, I have never quite been able to come to any conclusions about this. It might be related to my living in a region where there are greater numbers of queers of every kind and a center for a lot of services for transgendered people. The question might just come up more because of this. And perhaps many femmes here are just more familiar with transitioning overall and have just thought more about relating to a Transperson. I don't know.

I used to be troubled by this. I'm not any longer. As gender is more understood outside of the traditional binary, I believe there will be more conversation about it. I view this as positive. Seems like a natural occurrence to me. But, these are only my thoughts from personal experience up to this point in my life. I can be upset if the nature of my butch identity as a woman is negated by someone.

I do, however, feel it is very important for anyone that feels any type of pressure about transitioning (or anything else, for that matter) speak out and hold their personal boundaries in place. That does not mean being rude or relying on or perpetuating any stereotypes about transgendered people.

[Corkey]

I have to also say that there are Stone Butches, some of who have top surgery and some who don't. They are not transitioning either.
I hope you take a look in the forums on the gender threads to get a better understanding of how genders are thought and discussed. It's very useful to folks who are new to the site.

[atomiczombie]

Before I started my transition, no one every pressured me or suggested to me that I should do so. And I have never, and will never pressure or suggest to anyone that they be anything other than who they feel they are.

Sorry for responding since I'm not a butch, but I used to ID as one a few years ago.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I have to also say that there are Stone Butches, some of who have top surgery and some who don't. They are not transitioning either.
I hope you take a look in the forums on the gender threads to get a better understanding of how genders are thought and discussed. It's very useful to folks who are new to the site.

So true. And I know FIBs that have had or are considering top surgery.

It sure can be confusing- plain complicated. The Planet gives space to so many issues, topics, processes, and gender ideology. I hope new members take a look and I also hope we all understand that many folks may just not have had much about transgender and intergender information or people around them. I know I have to be careful not to assume that every person on the site has this experience or knowledge.

I am always learning something from the site and our diverse membership. And hell, I'm old!!

Addition- there is a thread about the upcoming Butch Voices Conference in Oakland. I went to the first one a couple of years ago. I will attend this one and I highly recommend this to members. The organization has multuple events around the US (or has in the past). Really covers all aspects of gender and a good way to learn about trans issues as well as butch issues- covers all of us!! www.butchvoices.com

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

This is a very sensitive issue. Personally, I have not felt this pressure from trans guys online or in real time. I have had an association with transgendered people since the 1960's. And I have an intergendered first cousin. This has been part of my life for a very long time. Yet, as a non-trans FIB, I claim no expertise around issues such as this.

I have, however, felt some pressure from femmes to transition. Now, these are femmes from real-time dating and not one of them (there are 3) are members here. I know that this is also a sensitive statement, as well. I mean no negativity toward any femme by this...

I'm really sorry this happened to you, ALH. To be honest, I've heard conversations amongst femme women in which they changed preferred pronouns to male against the expressed preferences of the butch woman they were discussing. I've also heard femmes put subtle pressure on butches to ID as male. It's not quite the same thing as pressuring a butch to transition, but I think it's on the continuum. If I witness this I never let it go. It's my nature to challenge that kind of disrespect.

The worst incidences I've witnessed of pressuring butches to transition came from a very good FTM friend of mine who has transitioned and lives his life fully as a male. I have heard him tell butch women that they should transition because T is such a great drug, or because their lives would be easier as men, etc. He's even suggested that I take T. No, he was not joking. He seems to believe that T is some kind of health tonic. We've had huge fights over this, and I've warned him not to risk losing my respect. Hopefully I've heard the last of it. We're still friends because I consider him family, but his relentless pressure against butch women has occasionally endangered his status in my life.

I've also witnessed very young people pressuring each other to transition. Because it's cool. Yes, it's true. I live in NYC where there's a subculture and plenty of information about how to obtain street T.

So, the answer is YES. It happens, and it sucks. Just like Strappie wrote, it's no different than pressuring a person to be straight.

[Heart]

I don't know if butches feel pressured by the transmen they encounter, but I do know that more than one butch in my life has expressed feeling pressure to just "be a man," rather than maintain the complex identity of butch or butch woman. This pressure emanates from many places in many ways, not least of which is the the way butch is conflated with male/masculine/man in both queer and non-queer communities.

Add to this the ongoing sexism, homophobia, and misogyny butches face as visible queer females, and the pressure rises. Throw in hierarchies of more/less butch, based upon how "manly" one is, and it can feel like a pressure cooker. So much so that one person I know opted to let go of the identity (at least the label) and have less contact with the B/F/T community, rather than continue to feel evaluated based upon standards she felt no resonance with.

I will say that I have, over the years, witnessed online a kind of pressure from some femmes towards butches to be the "men of the community," which horrified me. (What is wrong with being the BUTCHES of the community??)

I will also say that I know numerous transmen who get it -- who have no interest in "converting" butches and respect and honor them for who they are.

And the last thing I'll say is that some butches I know are 3rd gender and others are women. Woman and butch are not, have never been, and never will be mutually exclusive of each other.

Heart

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I'm really sorry this happened to you, ALH. To be honest, I've heard conversations amongst femme women in which they changed preferred pronouns to male against the expressed preferences of the butch woman they were discussing. I've also heard femmes put subtle pressure on butches to ID as male. It's not quite the same thing as pressuring a butch to transition, but I think it's on the continuum. If I witness this I never let it go. It's my nature to challenge that kind of disrespect.

The worst incidences I've witnessed of pressuring butches to transition came from a very good FTM friend of mine who has transitioned and lives his life fully as a male. I have heard him tell butch women that they should transition because T is such a great drug, or because their lives would be easier as men, etc. He's even suggested that I take T. No, he was not joking. He seems to believe that T is some kind of health tonic. We've had huge fights over this, and I've warned him not to risk losing my respect. Hopefully I've heard the last of it. We're still friends because I consider him family, but his relentless pressure against butch women has occasionally endangered his status in my life.

I've also witnessed very young people pressuring each other to transition. Because it's cool. Yes, it's true. I live in NYC where there's a subculture and plenty of information about how to obtain street T.

So, the answer is YES. It happens, and it sucks. Just like Strappie wrote, it's no different than pressuring a person to be straight.

Thank you. It really hurts to hear other butches making what they have had happen to them known. I couldn't lie about my experiences and transmen, but I see the posts and it just plain hurts.

What can we do as a community about this?

[Converse]

Originally Posted by Merlin

Alot of butches I know are going through gender re-assignment surgery to become male,they are at varying stages of this.

My question is this :
Butches have you ever felt pressurised to have a sex change?

Have you ever felt it off other butches/transguys who want you to follow the path they have set ?

Everyone welcome to answer but I would like to hear off the butches too.

Yes during several stages in my life. The first time in my youth when I experienced a severe backlash from the mainstream lesbian community towards Butch/Femme identities and in looking for a place to belong, and escape feelings of isolation, found myself gravitating towards the gay male culture- and because of my involvement in the entertainment industry eventually found that my entire circle of friends were made up of people in varying stages of transition, primarily MTF. The constant “when are you going to choose?” conversations, and “Butch is just pretend” statements that happened within this group, created another type of isolation for me.

And then many years later when it felt like the only Femmes left on the planet were to be found walking on the arms of those who had transitioned, that the feeling of isolation (and thoughts of involuntary celibacy) returned and with that the self doubt. In my latter years I actually found it harder to come to terms with- as my earlier experiences had been with those who had fully transitioned and now identified as straight men- an identity that I could never relate to, however when I began to meet those who identified as trans-men and part of the queer community, I thought perhaps…

It was the acceptance of male-identified Butch by the community that finally facilitated my ability to not feel any pressure, from others or within myself, to transition.

[Dutch Leonard]

Over the years, not knowing where I belonged or fit in, I wondered if the transgender thing was for me. Sometimes I felt like I stood on the shore and watched others sail away into manhood, into real lives. I never felt like I was in the wrong body, I just couldn't put into words what it was I was. If someone needs to be a man to be happy, to stay alive, I support that. That is their life to live.

Knowing what I do now, and finding people who get it, I am ok. Not everyone gets it but finding this community has brought me home. If someone thinks I am not butch enough or too butch, she can keep looking.

[T D]

This is just my opinion, but I think there's a very strong distinction between wanting to "be" a man and wanting to be "in" a "man's body". In fact there are many characteristics (generalization) about lots of bio men that I don't really care for. I feel no more manly than I did before, but I'm becoming much more comfortable in my body every day. For myself it seems that it was more about my body than anything, and still is so far.

Just a quick thought to ponder.

Ok, back to bed... not feelin so hot today.

[Tommi]

Originally Posted by Dutch Leonard

Over the years, not knowing where I belonged or fit in, I wondered if the transgender thing was for me. Sometimes I felt like I stood on the shore and watched others sail away into manhood, into real lives. I never felt like I was in the wrong body, I just couldn't put into words what it was I was. If someone needs to be a man to be happy, to stay alive, I support that. That is their life to live.

Knowing what I do now, and finding people who get it, I am ok. Not everyone gets it but finding this community has brought me home. If someone thinks I am not butch enough or too butch, she can keep looking.

Hi Dutch,

Glad to see you are being true to you. Here is another community that gets it.. http://www.butchvoices.com/.

No one ever pressured me, probably because I would have just written them off. I have had all the labels that go with being gay, trans, homo, queer, butch, stone, top, etc etc, and , well I cut the labels out of my clothes. People usually see through their own filters and just take what they want.

Since my pre-kindergarten years I identified as a boy. Some transition happened in my brain, and that bio-female body seemed to just morph away. I didn't have words for it, I just felt and saw things through what I now know was being transgender. When I was about 3, I began the journey as Tommi, per my dear Gramma who nicknamed me.

When I was a young adult, I was introduced to testosterone by a butch friend. Back then, doctor's thought I was nuts, so, I "experimented" with it from other sources. Not under doctor's care, no lab tests, we were street druggies I guess. Went to Tijuanna and got it from a doctor/pharmacist down there. I had some pretty nasty stuff going on from it (not monitored dose). Any scratch would bleed profusely. I got sick and was hospitalized twice. I quit taking it after about 6 months, as my liver stuff went out of control. I just went forward as I had before, and am comfortable in my won skin. I have identified as male my whole life I suppose, so I guess I could never be pressured. I am sensitive, romantic, and cry when sad, even when happy, and like the rest of us, just doing this one day at a time.

Check out Butch Voices ~ and ^ 5...

[Merlin]

Can I say unless you walk in someone's shoes you don't have a clue what they are going through !! How life treats them .. What the future holds for them.

Amazingly it does happen .. It doesn't have to be in your face it can be little sly digs,it can be feeling you are in a minority rather than a majority. It can be when your made to feel like your not good enough .. Or that same old question off gay and straight alike "when are you having the op then ?"

Due to the smaller size of the butch femme community over here .. A lot of butches going through surgery of some kind .. To be happier in their skins.

From what I have seen to me it feels like butches are decreasing and transguys are increasing. Butch/femme here is a small affair, there are a couple of uk forums but it's always the same group posting with no fresh blood.

I did this thread as I wanted butches/transguys opinions (femmes as guests) please don't derail this thread as it's a butches feeling and points of view.

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by Merlin

I did this thread as I wanted butches/transguys opinions (femmes as guests) please don't derail this thread as it's a butches feeling and points of view.

Hey Merlin! I hope I did not derail your thread. I know you are looking for butch feelings and points of view so I hope my femme thoughts were ok to post.

To everyone who has shared, thanks for doing so. As an extreme femme girly girl, I rarely feel the pressure that a butch feels and I appreciate the chance to read & learn as I truly hope that it makes me a more understanding partner.

~love to everyone~

[kannon]

If you're transitioning for someone else, you're doing it for all the wrong reasons. If they are being honest with their therapist, then they wouldn't get the green light for T or any SRS.