Pressurised to transition.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

This is a very sensitive issue. Personally, I have not felt this pressure from trans guys online or in real time. I have had an association with transgendered people since the 1960's. And I have an intergendered first cousin. This has been part of my life for a very long time. Yet, as a non-trans FIB, I claim no expertise around issues such as this.

I have, however, felt some pressure from femmes to transition. Now, these are femmes from real-time dating and not one of them (there are 3) are members here. I know that this is also a sensitive statement, as well. I mean no negativity toward any femme by this...

I'm really sorry this happened to you, ALH. To be honest, I've heard conversations amongst femme women in which they changed preferred pronouns to male against the expressed preferences of the butch woman they were discussing. I've also heard femmes put subtle pressure on butches to ID as male. It's not quite the same thing as pressuring a butch to transition, but I think it's on the continuum. If I witness this I never let it go. It's my nature to challenge that kind of disrespect.

The worst incidences I've witnessed of pressuring butches to transition came from a very good FTM friend of mine who has transitioned and lives his life fully as a male. I have heard him tell butch women that they should transition because T is such a great drug, or because their lives would be easier as men, etc. He's even suggested that I take T. No, he was not joking. He seems to believe that T is some kind of health tonic. We've had huge fights over this, and I've warned him not to risk losing my respect. Hopefully I've heard the last of it. We're still friends because I consider him family, but his relentless pressure against butch women has occasionally endangered his status in my life.

I've also witnessed very young people pressuring each other to transition. Because it's cool. Yes, it's true. I live in NYC where there's a subculture and plenty of information about how to obtain street T.

So, the answer is YES. It happens, and it sucks. Just like Strappie wrote, it's no different than pressuring a person to be straight.

[Heart]

I don't know if butches feel pressured by the transmen they encounter, but I do know that more than one butch in my life has expressed feeling pressure to just "be a man," rather than maintain the complex identity of butch or butch woman. This pressure emanates from many places in many ways, not least of which is the the way butch is conflated with male/masculine/man in both queer and non-queer communities.

Add to this the ongoing sexism, homophobia, and misogyny butches face as visible queer females, and the pressure rises. Throw in hierarchies of more/less butch, based upon how "manly" one is, and it can feel like a pressure cooker. So much so that one person I know opted to let go of the identity (at least the label) and have less contact with the B/F/T community, rather than continue to feel evaluated based upon standards she felt no resonance with.

I will say that I have, over the years, witnessed online a kind of pressure from some femmes towards butches to be the "men of the community," which horrified me. (What is wrong with being the BUTCHES of the community??)

I will also say that I know numerous transmen who get it -- who have no interest in "converting" butches and respect and honor them for who they are.

And the last thing I'll say is that some butches I know are 3rd gender and others are women. Woman and butch are not, have never been, and never will be mutually exclusive of each other.

Heart

[BullDog]

What Heart says resonates with me. It's not really just a question of do you or do not feel pressured to transition. It's more the "pressure cooker" she describes. The conflation of butch with male/man drives me insane. The conflation of masculine with male drives me insane. This comes from within butch femme communities.

Also within butch femme communities, the definition of woman seems to get narrower and narrower to the point where so many butches feel they don't fit the definition of woman. I claim woman. I am invested in expanding what woman is and can be. To me that is liberating for myself and hopefully helps other women feel liberated as well (not just butch women). I would like to see as much exploration of what woman can be and mean in terms of gender as much as seems to be paid to male/masculine.

This pressure cooker is not coming just from transmen or just femmes- it comes from all genders in the bf community.

In the outside world, visibly queer/lesbian butches have to face the world both as queers and women (and women going against the grain to boot).

So, there's lots of factors going into this, not just yes or no to transition.

Thank you very much for your post, Heart.

[Strappie]

I know a fem whom use to use the trump card to piss a butch off or be hateful towards them buy using "your not ever going to be butch enough for a fem" I know it's made some question who they are. I also think that it does put pressure on some insecure butches as to who they are. I have never condoned this behavior. Nor will I allow it to happen in my presence!

It's harsh and so wrong!!

[1PlayfulFemme]

I think where pressure exists is very rarely in the verbal realm. It's not like someone calls every day saying "You need to transistion". I have certainly seen butch friends of mine feel pressured into identifying male because their friends did, or a femme wanted them to (regardless of whether that identity was mental or physically changing).

I have friends who i.d. male. Period. No one pressured them, no one could pressure them. I also have friends who aren't sure where their i.d. exists. (which only they can decide..when they are ready). I have friends who have completed the transformation, others who have just begun and still others who are happy just where they are.

For me, if you are feeling pressured to change your very identity, you need to look at the people/circumstances that are making you feel that way. If you feel like you should be a man, or that you ARE a man (on the inside - where it counts), that's one thing entirely. If you feel like you are a woman and you don't want to transistion, then don't. Identify as female.

Only you know what lies inside yourself. And if people really care about you, it doesn't matter if you are male i.d'ed, female i.d'ed, male, female, or somewhere in the middle. As long as you are happy - and secure in your own identity.

When you love and accept yourself fully, others opinions about you don't seem as important as they once did. You are the one that will have to live with any choice you make for whatever period of time in your life that choice affects you....so do what's right for your soul. Your happiness is bound to follow!!!

(Just my .02) *flips coin into the conversation*

[Chazz]

I am a 3rd gendered butch who has come to be comfortable in my woman body. Such was not always the case because of the "pressure cooker" effect that Heart speaks of so eloquently.

Originally Posted by Heart

I don't know if butches feel pressured by the transmen they encounter, but I do know that more than one butch in my life has expressed feeling pressure to just "be a man," rather than maintain the complex identity of butch or butch woman. This pressure emanates from many places in many ways, not least of which is the the way butch is conflated with male/masculine/man in both queer and non-queer communities.

Absolutely ! ! ! ! This will continue to happen as long as behavior is gendered. Clothing, hair cuts, career choices, childhood preferences in toys, etc., too.

Gender constructs (gay, straight, or otherwise), are the root cause of this. Existing constructs, from whatever quarter, are arbitrary and subjective; wholly idiosyncratic. No gender self-concept is ever entirely free from external influences. Humans are social animals; none of us live in a vacuum.

Gender is a myth. Gender concepts and terminology mystify the complex business of BEING.

Originally Posted by Heart

Add to this the ongoing sexism, homophobia, and misogyny butches face as visible queer females, and the pressure rises. Throw in hierarchies of more/less butch, based upon how "manly" one is, and it can feel like a pressure cooker.

Or, just plain silly.

But there is a subtler aspect, too. One that is rarely, if ever, talked about. That is the role playing that often, wittingly or not, goes on in many relationships. Including, my past relationships.

The role playing served me for awhile. It told me who I was, or so I thought. But, it also confined and stunted me. Eventually, it took the the personal growth, creativity and excitement out of my life and relationships. My life was a "color by numbers" role playing affair. This kept me wandering from one relationship to the next, and from one constructed self to the next. Although I am not a finished product by any means, things have changed for the better since I stopped performing gender and allowed myself to just be.

[DapperButch]

I can honestly say that I have never felt pressure to chemically transition (or simply identify as trans for that matter), from anyone.

I also have never felt that someone thought I wasn't "butch enough". I have often wondered why my experience is so different from other butches when it comes to this issue (?).

[Liam]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I can honestly say that I have never felt pressure to chemically transition (or simply identify as trans for that matter), from anyone.

I also have never felt that someone thought I wasn't "butch enough". I have often wondered why my experience is so different from other butches when it comes to this issue (?).

I never experienced any outside pressure to transition, it was all internal; nor have I pressured anyone to transition.

I never questioned myself about being butch enough, nor did anyone else. You are not alone, Dapper.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Gender is a myth. Gender concepts and terminology mystify the complex business of BEING.

But there is a subtler aspect, too. One that is rarely, if ever, talked about. That is the role playing that often, wittingly or not, goes on in many relationships. The role playing served me for awhile. It told me who I was, or so I thought. But, it also confined and stunted me. Eventually, it took the the personal growth, creativity and excitement out of my life and relationships. My life was a "color by numbers" role playing affair. This kept me wandering from one relationship to the next, and from one constructed self to the next. Although I am not a finished product by any means, things have changed for the better since I stopped performing gender and allowed myself to just be.

I think your words are insightful. I would like for you to consider this, "role playing" can also serve to bring us to a greater understanding of ourselves and others.

This thread is specifically about gender but I hope most of us realized we are asked from the moment we are born to act, think and live to be whatever is considered to be the "normative." You are not part of the dominate culture? Then get busy and lose your language, lose weight, dye your hair, live beyond your financial means, don't go out into the sun. Straighten your hair.

This "role playing" can be a double edged sword. I have identified as a Butch for the majority of my life. Yes, also even after have undergoing top surgery, three years on T and legal gender change. I did not make the decision to "transition" because of pressure. I am moving into more of who I am, how I was born. My life as Trans is not any less complex than being Butch.

[AtLast]

[QUOTE=Greyson;338953]I think your words are insightful. I would like for you to consider this, "role playing" can also serve to bring us to a greater understanding of ourselves and others.

This thread is specifically about gender but I hope most of us realized we are asked from the moment we are born to act, think and live to be whatever is considered to be the "normative." You are not part of the dominate culture? Then get busy and lose your language, lose weight, dye your hair, live beyond your financial means, don't go out into the sun. Straighten your hair.

This "role playing" can be a double edged sword. I have identified as a Butch for the majority of my life. Yes, also even after have undergoing top surgery, three years on T and legal gender change. I did not make the decision to "transition" because of pressure. I am moving into more of who I am, how I was born. My life as Trans is not any less complex than being Butch.[/QUOTE]

Your entire post brings up important distinction- but the last statement really strikes me. Neither is very easy and no matter the negative things that may have happened to any of us, "get" this statement. And there are the issues born of the "normative structures" that femmes deal with.

I do have transmen real-time friends (fully transitioned)that feel more at peace in terms of gender, but not like life is less complicated.

I only hope as we going along the way, we figure out more constructive and positive ways to relate to each and and as a population that is a grouping of sub-cultures within a sub-culture within the outside, normative oppression we have all felt.

I think this makes sense.

[CherylNYC]

I'm glad that everyone who has posted here agrees that it's a really bad idea to pressure a butch to transition. Some butches have been unlucky enough to encounter others without your level of respect for who they are.

I had a wonderful conversation with Dykumentary at an event we attended over the weekend. I asked her about the short film she made which documents an experience she had with a mental health professional. She reaffirmed to me that the film is autobiographical and a faithful recreation of her experience.

Dykumentary identifies as a butch woman, but the counselor insisted that she must have Gender Identity Disorder because she dresses in men's clothes.

Dykumentary gave me permission to post this here:


"The link to the video about getting pressured to admit being trans is at:
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WvtkCOd33s"]YouTube - ‪My Crazy Boxers‬‏[/nomedia]

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I'm glad that everyone who has posted here agrees that it's a really bad idea to pressure a butch to transition. Some butches have been unlucky enough to encounter others without your level of respect for who they are.

I had a wonderful conversation with Dykumentary at an event we attended over the weekend. I asked her about the short film she made which documents an experience she had with a mental health professional. She reaffirmed to me that the film is autobiographical and a faithful recreation of her experience.

Dykumentary identifies as a butch woman, but the counselor insisted that she must have Gender Identity Disorder because she dresses in men's clothes.

Dykumentary gave me permission to post this here:


"The link to the video about getting pressured to admit being trans is at:
YouTube - ‪My Crazy Boxers‬‏

This so addresses how I feel at times with continued questioning about my gender- my being a masculine woman and one that feels quite comfortable being so. And it deeply saddens (and angers) me as a licensed clinician (retired) that a therapist did this! In fact it is something that ought to be reported to the licensing board as mal-practice.

This is exactly the kind of thing that could push a butch into transitioning when they are not transgendered or intergendered. I have talked with other butches that have experienced this type of "peer" pressure or what it really is- simply more pushing of a person to conform to the binary due to another person not being able to accept any deviation from what is traditionally defined as male or female, masculine or feminine. A "real" woman cannot possible look like me or other female bodied and minded women! And of course, we MUST have some pathological inability not be able to "see" we are not women, but men! We are the ones that have faulty gender self identification, not the other way around!

Until the many "faces" of gender is truly understood by society at large (and even within our corner of queerdom), we are all negatively affected by gender ignorance. Butches, femmes, transpeople, intergendered people, and third gender individuals. And there are even more gender types being researched and theorized about.

I have looked at my own gender identity in many ways since the 1960's when first knowing a trans teen friend. I've looked and questioned and pondered and have always come to the conclusion that I am a woman through and through. But not the kind of woman that is recognized as a woman without doubt or presumption- other people's doubt, not my own.

I heard a very sad srory from a femme I dated a couple of years ago about a butch that transitioned (had top surgery along with taking T for several years) that was going through hell because she (reverted to female pronounds) felt she made a mistake and was caught up in a kind of "fad." At that point, she was going through a lot of pain because the very people that supported (and according to her) and she felt pressured by to transition (they were/had) turned their backs on her as a friend. Now, I never met this person and my info is second hand, so I never had a discussion with her. But this felt really awful to me. I don't know how it all ended up for her. At that time, she was going to stop the T and hopefully have more surgeries to revert back to a female bodied person according to what I was told. Since she lives in SF, it appeared that she was able to find some support with what she wanted to do. I hope so. I doubt that this is common- especially after actually having surgery. But, it does bring to light the subject of this thread and things that are really important to take a look at. And like I said, I cannot possibly have all the facts.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Greyson

I think your words are insightful. I would like for you to consider this, "role playing" can also serve to bring us to a greater understanding of ourselves and others.

It's been my experience that "role playing" was a circuitous path. Would that I could have had a more direct trajectory.

Role-playing may or may not be a way of working through dominant culture constructs. It may also be a way of embracing them. You say as much in your next quote.

Originally Posted by Greyson

This thread is specifically about gender but I hope most of us realized we are asked from the moment we are born to act, think and live to be whatever is considered to be the "normative." You are not part of the dominate culture? Then get busy and lose your language, lose weight, dye your hair, live beyond your financial means, don't go out into the sun. Straighten your hair.

Role playing is a form of acting-as-if. It happens no less within subcultures where dominant culture values are rejected. Outlaw bikers, street gangs and Gothers come to mind.

Are we all sponges for dominant culture values, sure, at least until we shed them as best we can. That is if we're of a mind to, of course. (This includes cultural outlaws like Outlaw bikers, street gangs and Gothers, too. There deal may be oppositional; it may also be a way of conceding defeat.)

Originally Posted by Greyson

This "role playing" can be a double edged sword. I have identified as a Butch for the majority of my life. Yes, also even after have undergoing top surgery, three years on T and legal gender change. I did not make the decision to "transition" because of pressure. I am moving into more of who I am, how I was born. My life as Trans is not any less complex than being Butch.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "double-edged sword". I contextually take it to mean good and bad at the same time.

If I read you accurately, are you saying that identifying as "butch" was who you really were at the time, or was that a role-play?

The reason I ask is because it never occurred to me to think of butch or "Trans" in terms of complexity - i.e. one being more complex than the other. I see them as two separate and distinct identities, not different points along the same continuum. Although, I have heard people speak of butch and "Trans" in such a way, I think doing so is the source of much confusion and consternation.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by Chazz

It's been my experience that "role playing" was a circuitous path. Would that I could have had a more direct trajectory.

Role-playing may or may not be a way of working through dominant culture constructs. It may also be a way of embracing them. You say as much in your next quote.



Role playing is a form of acting-as-if. It happens no less within subcultures where dominant culture values are rejected. Outlaw bikers, street gangs and Gothers come to mind.

Are we all sponges for dominant culture values, sure, at least until we shed them as best we can. That is if we're of a mind to, of course. (This includes cultural outlaws like Outlaw bikers, street gangs and Gothers, too. There deal may be oppositional; it may also be a way of conceding defeat.)



I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "double-edged sword". I contextually take it to mean good and bad at the same time.

If I read you accurately, are you saying that identifying as "butch" was who you really were at the time, or was that a role-play?

The reason I ask is because it never occurred to me to think of butch or "Trans" in terms of complexity - i.e. one being more complex than the other. I see them as two separate and distinct identities, not different points along the same continuum. Although, I have heard people speak of butch and "Trans" in such a way, I think doing so is the source of much confusion and consternation.

Chazz, we have a difference of opinion. I do see my gender on a continum. I do not see Trans or Butch as more or less complex than one another. I think both offer challenges and freedom. I also think for some Butch and Transman can intersect, overlap. I do not believe the binary is the only gender model.

For me living all of my life as a Butch until very recently has been the same in many ways as my life as a Transman. I would not be honest if I did not state having the legal recognition of being a "male" did not change some things. I can get married and my marriage recognized by the US Federal Government. After 3 years on T, I still get "Mamn" frequently. I also get "Sir." That was also my reality before Top surgery and T.

Living my life as Butch was not role play for me. It was simply who I was, am. I think for me, I will always make a distinction between being a Transman and being a Cisgender man. For me, it is not the same.

[AtLast]

I hope eventually we can talk about what julieisafemme brought up about how at times, one can grieve the loss of a butch friend that decides to transition. I think she was talking about this in terms of losses that can be felt by butches with other butch friends transitioning. That is how I interpreted her post.

I know that this can be really sensitive- which can be based upon the very myths that some posters are bringing up. I.e., what Liam points to in the danger of accepting the mythologies of trans guys increasing in our B-F community and butch identity decreasing. Or, trans guys just want to take up with femmes in the B-F community.

There are so many other kinds of things that a butch friend might be grieving that are just human responses to the loss of a part of someone that they have experienced for years as a friend that have nothing to do with any of that and everything to do with adjustments/adaptations people go through. I have certainly grieved the loss of a friend's physical mobility before because I shared years of playing sports with that friend and now that has changed and we have to work out other activities to share. Now, my friends have to deal with my having disability issues and make adjustments. One has taken a powder- not really much of a friend, really.

For me, there has been some grief about a friend that transitions that I have shared specific butch lesbian constructs with in the past. And for a time, often, there could be that a friend just spends more time with other trans friends than me that has always been someone I did a lot of things with. Even with their partner and my own in the past. On one level, I get this as it is important to get involved in support groups and attend conferences, etc. in which I am not part of. People only have so much time to share with friends, family, partners, and work- so things just shift. But there can be hurt feelings.

I remember the loss my late partner's daughter felt due to her "Other Mother" transitioning into her "Dad." She grieved the loss of that other mother as a female co-parent and had a difficult time even trying to express herself because she felt like she might hurt her Dad's feelings. So, she ended up resenting his transition for a time (she was pre-teen at the time of his starting to transition) and blaming it on her parents splitting up.

I, myself after the suicide of a trans childhood friend in high school had several years in which transition of anyone I knew brought up a lot of fear. I was a lot younger then and it was an entirely different world in terms of gender identity and transition then. Later, I worked through this and also things like being scorned by straight friends when I came out to them. All part of life as someone that just does not fall within the societal norms.

Anyway- this could be a good topic area to discuss. A lot of complexity!!

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Chazz, we have a difference of opinion. I do see my gender on a continum. I do not see Trans or Butch as more or less complex than one another. I think both offer challenges and freedom. I also think for some Butch and Transman can intersect, overlap. I do not believe the binary is the only gender model.

I agreed with you on the "Trans or Butch as not more or less complex than one another".

Where I see us diverging is on the continuum issue.

Butches are not transmen. Nor, are we "cisgendered" (i.e. someone whose gender identity agrees with their societally recognized sex). Butches do not adhere to a gender binary even within the lesbian and gay culture. Butches are uncisgendered. To be linguistically consistent, one would have to say we're cisbutch.

Like the term women (i.e. not men), the term "cisgender" is commonly held to mean, not "Trans". I won't go into the inappropriateness of defining any group by what they are not - it should be obvious. Besides, POC have long since made the case for not being described as "non-white" as have Feminists for females not being defined as "non-males".

Originally Posted by Greyson

For me living all of my life as a Butch until very recently has been the same in many ways as my life as a Transman.

I get that. The inner contours of my life aren't all that different since I came into the fullness of my understanding of myself as a butch.

But, let's think about this continuum construct for a minute....

Butch isn't an a pre-"Trans" state for butches. Butch is the final destination. To speak of butch identity otherwise, is to (albeit inadvertently) create a horizontal hierarchy with "Trans" succeeding butch. People (you) may not intend to imply successionism or hierarchies, but placing butches and "Trans" on the same continuum does just that. It's how continua work.

Butch identity falls along a spectrum not a continuum. One butch isn't butcher than another.

I don't think butches and "Trans" follow the same trajectory. For instance, I don't think of myself as being in the wrong body. I think of myself as a butch in a butch body (cisbutch).

Originally Posted by Greyson

I would not be honest if I did not state having the legal recognition of being a "male" did not change some things. I can get married and my marriage recognized by the US Federal Government. After 3 years on T, I still get "Mamn" frequently. I also get "Sir." That was also my reality before Top surgery and T.

Having legal rights and privileges that lesbians and gays don't have is hugely different.

Originally Posted by Greyson

Living my life as Butch was not role play for me. It was simply who I was, am. I think for me, I will always make a distinction between being a Transman and being a Cisgender man. For me, it is not the same.

Of course, there is a difference between a Transman and a Cisgender man. Just as there are differences between being gay, straight, bisexual, trans, non-trans, butch, femme.... But let's be consistent in acknowledging those differences.

I have no doubt you've been on a continuum. I take you at your word about that. However, I suspect it may have been a "Trans continuum" all along. Can that be ok? You with your continuum and me with my spectrum?

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Heart

I don't know if butches feel pressured by the transmen they encounter, but I do know that more than one butch in my life has expressed feeling pressure to just "be a man," rather than maintain the complex identity of butch or butch woman. This pressure emanates from many places in many ways, not least of which is the the way butch is conflated with male/masculine/man in both queer and non-queer communities.

Add to this the ongoing sexism, homophobia, and misogyny butches face as visible queer females, and the pressure rises. Throw in hierarchies of more/less butch, based upon how "manly" one is, and it can feel like a pressure cooker. So much so that one person I know opted to let go of the identity (at least the label) and have less contact with the B/F/T community, rather than continue to feel evaluated based upon standards she felt no resonance with.

I will say that I have, over the years, witnessed online a kind of pressure from some femmes towards butches to be the "men of the community," which horrified me. (What is wrong with being the BUTCHES of the community??)

I will also say that I know numerous transmen who get it -- who have no interest in "converting" butches and respect and honor them for who they are.

And the last thing I'll say is that some butches I know are 3rd gender and others are women. Woman and butch are not, have never been, and never will be mutually exclusive of each other.

Heart

Thank you Heart for this post. Puts it into the fluid perspective it is.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with what you state about what Butches go through here and often in real time within our own community. Yes, Transmen "get us" on a whole other level than many femmes (probably part of why I don't feel pressure from them to transition). They get the bathroom garbage, and threats (or actual) violence we deal with- all of it. At least transmen I relate to. Part of this is because they have lived it, but I think they just have a deeper sensitivity about such things due to gender identity struggles.


The pressure cooker you site is very real for me as a FIB- and I know these feelings exist for MIBs and 3rd Gendered butches as well.

I want to be accepted for who I am in this body and mind of mine, period. I love my body as it is (LOL, sure, a bit of nostalgia for it in younger form comes up). I love the balance and integration of feminine & masculine (if I have to use these terms- anima & animus fit better I feel- even yin & yang- two-spirit is good) as a butch woman.

Something I need to state, however, is that I do understand some of issues that femmes go through that are with transmen- and why at times, they feel put down or not accepted. It would do us well to be more sensitive to all factors that people go through. No matter their identity.

I really just want to be the butch I am and be accepted…. it is hard enough dealing with what goes on in real-time. It hasn't been very long at all since the last time I was threatened with violence.

[dreadgeek]

Before I say anything, let me commend the OP and everyone who has posted so far. This is an extraordinarily difficult topic and I'm both proud of folks for being willing to tackle it and pleased that it is being tackled. The degree to which this happens (and humans being humans it would be remarkable if it never happened) is a question I have wanted to take on in writing for a few years now. I first wondered about this a litle more than a decade ago.

I have an ex, D, who I am still very good friends with. At the time, D was seeing this transguy named J. One day, D told me that she was thinking about transitioning. This caught me a little bit by surprise but I wasn't going to tell someone what their process was. I asked her some questions because, quite honestly, I know D well and I just couldn't see it. I asked her what made her think that she might be male and the only thing she could really come up with was that all of the musicians she loved and admired were men--D was and still is a big music geek. At the time, she wanted to be in a band. I suggested that perhaps she might want to give it some thought and that if she was really trans that would be still be there. Then I said I'd support her whatever she did. A few weeks later she was talking about having her first shot of T. Her boyfriend had a line on T through a backchannel. I told her that this seemed an extraordinarily bad idea.

Now, at the time both D and J were going to a trans support group and I wondered to what degree there was some transman being, well, an elder who might be able and willing to say to D, 'let's talk about this'. It didn't happen. Eventually D came to her senses and stopped transitioning before she did something permanent.

This incident has haunted me for a long time because I wondered how many times something like this was being played out and whether we, as a community, had the tools to talk about this topic in an adult and loving manner. So seeing this makes me feel good that the discussion can happen.

On another personal note, the book I've been afraid to write deals with this very question. I'm afraid to write it because, well, I know our people and I know how we can be--sometimes even asking the question "are there really that many more transmen around or is there something else going on" can cause a category five shit storm to erupt into one's life. But of the books that are scattered on my computer half written or mapped out in my head, the one on this question is the one that is burning a hole in my head, demanding to be written. Don't worry, I’m not gathering information or doing research.

I don't have any advice for anyone, although I will say these two things:

1) As Keri said, transitioning is the hardest thing you will ever do. I have often said that next to transition, everything else I will ever do fades into the merely difficult.

2) The only reason to transition is because you feel that something is just a bit off-kilter between body and brain. It won't make your life easier (see 1 above) nor will it fix your quirks and eccentricities. It solves one thing that is out of balance in your life and nothing else. Now, if it solves that problem for you, however, it will change your life and make it a better more comfortable place than you might have imagined possible. And if it doesn't break you along the way, the person who comes out on the other side will be a force of nature. You will know yourself much better and you'll know *precisely* what you are capable of.


Cheers
Aj

Originally Posted by Heart

I don't know if butches feel pressured by the transmen they encounter, but I do know that more than one butch in my life has expressed feeling pressure to just "be a man," rather than maintain the complex identity of butch or butch woman. This pressure emanates from many places in many ways, not least of which is the the way butch is conflated with male/masculine/man in both queer and non-queer communities.

Add to this the ongoing sexism, homophobia, and misogyny butches face as visible queer females, and the pressure rises. Throw in hierarchies of more/less butch, based upon how "manly" one is, and it can feel like a pressure cooker. So much so that one person I know opted to let go of the identity (at least the label) and have less contact with the B/F/T community, rather than continue to feel evaluated based upon standards she felt no resonance with.


Heart

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Before I say anything, let me commend the OP and everyone who has posted so far. This is an extraordinarily difficult topic and I'm both proud of folks for being willing to tackle it and pleased that it is being tackled. The degree to which this happens (and humans being humans it would be remarkable if it never happened) is a question I have wanted to take on in writing for a few years now. I first wondered about this a litle more than a decade ago.

I have an ex, D, who I am still very good friends with. At the time, D was seeing this transguy named J. One day, D told me that she was thinking about transitioning. This caught me a little bit by surprise but I wasn't going to tell someone what their process was. I asked her some questions because, quite honestly, I know D well and I just couldn't see it. I asked her what made her think that she might be male and the only thing she could really come up with was that all of the musicians she loved and admired were men--D was and still is a big music geek. At the time, she wanted to be in a band. I suggested that perhaps she might want to give it some thought and that if she was really trans that would be still be there. Then I said I'd support her whatever she did. A few weeks later she was talking about having her first shot of T. Her boyfriend had a line on T through a backchannel. I told her that this seemed an extraordinarily bad idea.

Now, at the time both D and J were going to a trans support group and I wondered to what degree there was some transman being, well, an elder who might be able and willing to say to D, 'let's talk about this'. It didn't happen. Eventually D came to her senses and stopped transitioning before she did something permanent.

This incident has haunted me for a long time because I wondered how many times something like this was being played out and whether we, as a community, had the tools to talk about this topic in an adult and loving manner. So seeing this makes me feel good that the discussion can happen.

On another personal note, the book I've been afraid to write deals with this very question. I'm afraid to write it because, well, I know our people and I know how we can be--sometimes even asking the question "are there really that many more transmen around or is there something else going on" can cause a category five shit storm to erupt into one's life. But of the books that are scattered on my computer half written or mapped out in my head, the one on this question is the one that is burning a hole in my head, demanding to be written. Don't worry, I’m not gathering information or doing research.

I don't have any advice for anyone, although I will say these two things:

1) As Keri said, transitioning is the hardest thing you will ever do. I have often said that next to transition, everything else I will ever do fades into the merely difficult.

2) The only reason to transition is because you feel that something is just a bit off-kilter between body and brain. It won't make your life easier (see 1 above) nor will it fix your quirks and eccentricities. It solves one thing that is out of balance in your life and nothing else. Now, if it solves that problem for you, however, it will change your life and make it a better more comfortable place than you might have imagined possible. And if it doesn't break you along the way, the person who comes out on the other side will be a force of nature. You will know yourself much better and you'll know *precisely* what you are capable of.


Cheers
Aj

It does feel like we have finally broken through this topic in a way that is more honest, less defensive and much kinder. Mainly it seems to giving room to a difficult discussion without hurtful (and false) assumptions. I remember past threads (mainly in the old site) just in the last four years that would not get passed a couple of posts without all hell breaking out.

Your story about your friend may very well be one that many of us- butch or trans- have experienced with a friend. And we do need to address issues surrounding the possibility of peer pressure and transitioning along with all of the other variables involved. I have always felt that we can do and come out better for it even though it is a very sensitive matter.

I know that the main thing for me is for a friend (or relative) to choose transitioning under the best of medical care, support and information about transitioning and for this to be of and for themselves completely. And for this to be the case, we do need to support as a community legislation and organizations that not only work for our own interests as part of the queer umbrella, but also for transgendered and intergendered people.

Further, recognizing the issues and needs of butches to also live in a supportive environment and be who we are just as we are is critical. Sharing what is common to us all within this community is a way we can deal more effectively with our difference, I believe and I am grateful for what has thus far been discussed in this thread. I feel a part of a respectful, mature discussion that just feels so much better than in the past.

[chefhottie25]

there is some great discussion going on here. i identify as a boi...which i consider to be a third gender. i bind and prefer the pronouns hy and hym...but that doesn't mean that i want to transition. i have had ftm and mtf friends and i have never felt any pressure to transition. as friends we would often talk openly about their journey and experiences surrounding the transition. it has never left me feeling that it is something that i need or want to do. i am comfortable and complete being the boi that i am.