Let's talk about Judith Butler

[dark_crystal]

I am taking a literary theory class, and this week is "Feminism week," so our assigned readings included "Gener Trouble," by Judith Butler
I found it very triggery! And I am kinda feeling like holding her responsible for a lot of the "shoulding" i went through throughout the 90's

Basically, what i think she says in "Gender Trouble" is that there is no innate masculinity or femininity and we are all just performing arbitrary social constructions

I feel like she is telling me i don't exist! That my butch does not exist! That transitioning FTMs/MTFs are putting themselves through surgery for nothing!

I need to be ready to discuss this by Wednesday, and I see that she has written a lot more since "Gender Trouble"- so maybe it is possible that she refined her views?

I am kinda crowd-sourcing this inquiry since I have to write a paper about Nietzsche's "On Truth and Lies in a Nonmoral Sense" this weekend and so I do not have time to follow up on Butler like I would like to

So I am asking ya'll- does anyone else feel this way about that piece? Does she revise her views later on?

How am I going to talk about her as a theorist without personalizing the issue?

What that really be so bad if i DID personalize the issue?

[Novelafemme]

I LOVE Butler and have studied her work extensively. I have to scoot off to class right now, but I'll be back to share some thoughts with you. FYI, her more recent work has been focused on queer theory and neoliberalism. I have a couple of great articles I can share with you written by her partner who also struggles with conceptualizing the performance of gender.

[SoNotHer]

It might be helpful to excerpt a couple quotes from her work to guide the conversation and reponses - quotes like this one -

"If gender is constructed, could it be constructed differently or does it constructedness imply some form of social determinism, foreclosing the possibility of agency and transformation?"

[dark_crystal]

Originally Posted by SoNotHer

It might be helpful to excerpt a couple quotes from her work to guide the conversation and reponses - quotes like this one -

"If gender is constructed, could it be constructed differently or does it constructedness imply some form of social determinism, foreclosing the possibility of agency and transformation?"

Yes that would have been helpful, sorry! Here are some more:

“... that gender is a choice, or that gender is a role, or that gender is a construction that one puts on, as one puts on clothes in the morning, that there is a 'one' who is prior to this gender, a one who goes to the wardrobe of gender and decides with deliberation which gender it will be today.”

“...gender is a kind of imitation for which there is no original"

[Toughy]

Butler has never believed that 'femme' exists as a gender identity. She (or is it he...I thought she transitioned). Interesting she has moved to denying butch. Post modern blah blah blah

I never liked her or her ideas.

[Novelafemme]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Butler has never believed that 'femme' exists as a gender identity. She (or is it he...I thought she transitioned). Interesting she has moved to denying butch. Post modern blah blah blah

I never liked her or her ideas.

I disagree. I haven't read anything that would lead me to believe she feels femme as an identity to be lacking in value. My understanding is that she wants to look at gender and desire more fluidly and without the influence of socially constructed acts of gender performance...which are traditionally very heteronormative.

Would she prefer that I do away with my heels, skirts and makeup? I think so! But most intellectuals prefer to deconstruct socially acceptable norms in order to find alternative methodologies. Personally, I love gender-bending no matter what form it takes!

[Novelafemme]

"And as far as I know, Butler identifies as Butch."

I need to correct this (since I have to admit that I pulled it right out of my ass)...Butler doesn't stake claim to any "identity" so to speak. She reminds me of my partner in that she wears mens clothing and sports a very short haircut, but refuses to latch on to any gender recognizable identity. Again, a refusal to adopt socially constructed norms.

[boobookitty]

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

“... that gender is a choice, or that gender is a role, or that gender is a construction that one puts on, as one puts on clothes in the morning, that there is a 'one' who is prior to this gender, a one who goes to the wardrobe of gender and decides with deliberation which gender it will be today.”

“...gender is a kind of imitation for which there is no original"

I totally 100% do NOT agree... I have lived with animals and small childrem through my entire life.. gender expression has a basis in brain function balanced with hormonal effect.

Gender Roles, are learned - social constructs, which vary according to the culture of our up bringing.

male and female are not the only genders -

someone who is Neutrois or Androgynous could very well fit the discriptions presented in those quotes. As could someone who is gender fluid.

My gender is not / was not -- a choice.

[julieisafemme]

Well I think Judith Butler would be appalled to learn that her book Undoing Gender is where I learned the word femme and that it applied to me. Then I googled the word, found the dash site and signed myself up as Julie is a femme! Yay!

I am not an academic by any means. Much of the references she makes I do not understand. What I did take away was that gender is not some inviolate thing that cannot be questioned. It is worth taking a look at it as a social construction because that is where it intersects with patriarchy. I found her thoughts (at least those that I think I might have understood) to very helpful to me in exploring my own gender and sexuality.

[Melissa]

Originally Posted by boobookitty

I totally 100% do NOT agree... I have lived with animals and small childrem through my entire life.. gender expression has a basis in brain function balanced with hormonal effect.

Gender Roles, are learned - social constructs, which vary according to the culture of our up bringing.

male and female are not the only genders -

someone who is Neutrois or Androgynous could very well fit the discriptions presented in those quotes. As could someone who is gender fluid.

My gender is not / was not -- a choice.

I don't agree that Butler sees gender as a choice or something similar to clothing that one puts on. She argues that it is normalized through repetition and so "feels" natural when it is really cultural.

melissa

[boobookitty]

Originally Posted by Melissa

I don't agree that Butler sees gender as a choice or something similar to clothing that one puts on. She argues that it is normalized through repetition and so "feels" natural when it is really cultural.

melissa

yes she does...

on the video in this very thread, at time stamp 1:11 .."we act as if ... it is a fact no body really is a gender from the start .. thats my claim.." through 1:35

and at timestamp 2:30 ... "its my view that gender is culturally formed"

--her words--

and my life experience does not agree. I know gender is variable, not a fixed point... gender roles and gender expression and gender pressentation are all cultural... internal gender awareness, is a product of our body via the brain and hormones and biological sex. How we interpret our internal experience is cultural...

social culture... is a system of chosen behaviors ... hence culture is choice, or better said cultural expression is a choice.... if she used the term "gender expression" instead of only stating "gender" ... I would agree with most of what she says. But "gender' and 'gender expression' are not the same thing.

[dark_crystal]

Originally Posted by Melissa

I don't agree that Butler sees gender as a choice or something similar to clothing that one puts on. She argues that it is normalized through repetition and so "feels" natural when it is really cultural.

melissa

My quibble is that, to me, this only makes sense for the cisgendered. I feel like she implies there is no such thing as transgender **

**although i am cisgendered and i would never presume to speak to what transgender "is," which is what i would be doing if i went toe-to-toe on her assertions

which is precisely my problem- Butler does not let her cisgendered perspective stop her from making assumptions about what transgendered individuals are thinking and feeling

I particularly don't like the way she takes the David Reimer case and decides for herself what led him to report that he "felt like a boy"

[Novelafemme]

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

I am taking a literary theory class, and this week is "Feminism week," so our assigned readings included "Gener Trouble," by Judith Butler
I found it very triggery! And I am kinda feeling like holding her responsible for a lot of the "shoulding" i went through throughout the 90's

Basically, what i think she says in "Gender Trouble" is that there is no innate masculinity or femininity and we are all just performing arbitrary social constructions

I feel like she is telling me i don't exist! That my butch does not exist! That transitioning FTMs/MTFs are putting themselves through surgery for nothing!

I need to be ready to discuss this by Wednesday, and I see that she has written a lot more since "Gender Trouble"- so maybe it is possible that she refined her views?

I am kinda crowd-sourcing this inquiry since I have to write a paper about Nietzsche's "On Truth and Lies in a Nonmoral Sense" this weekend and so I do not have time to follow up on Butler like I would like to

So I am asking ya'll- does anyone else feel this way about that piece? Does she revise her views later on?

How am I going to talk about her as a theorist without personalizing the issue?

What that really be so bad if i DID personalize the issue?

I read her work very differently. I see her as challenging the binary of sexual "normativity" as a social construct in and of itself. She takes the intersectional nature of gender (the social construct of race, class and sexuality) and then deconstructs it by way of questioning its validity and ability to stand on its own without the narrative of performance that inevitably informs it as more than a theoretical abstract. Can gender exist without heteronormative binaries? Can there be an absence of gender? Are male/female gender binaries accessible without acknowledging desire? She very much aligns herself with Foucaultian epistemology by way of defining human sexuality as more than the sum of just gender and sex. She urges her readers to view gender as a performance so that women are not relegated to patriarchal heteronormative constructs based in and on power alone.

She is not attempting to invalidate how anyone identifies, rather she is trying to disassemble the way gender is constructed as a social norm. She wants us to look at gender presentation as a performance based more on desire rather than gender based on sex alone.

These are just my musings. I hope they make a little bit of sense. Sometimes what makes sense in my brain makes zero sense once it leaves my mouth.

And as far as I know, Butler identifies as Butch.

[mariamma]

hmmm.... this is all a bit disturbing for me. While I know part of what has been said is true I'm not in agreement with all of it. The fact of the matter is, gender identity is based on estrogen and testosterone. These hormones influence the brain in utero. If one feels like a girl or a boy or both or neither....it will be because of the individual's hormonal balance and because of hormonal levels in utero as well as hormone levels while growing. Why do men have such a difficult time understanding women and vice versa? It's because gender is significant, because of the action of gender-creating hormones. Now there is no normal....but there is gender.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by mariamma

hmmm.... this is all a bit disturbing for me. While I know part of what has been said is true I'm not in agreement with all of it. The fact of the matter is, gender identity is based on estrogen and testosterone.

This is not the "fact of the matter." There are no studies which show this conclusively. In some ways similar to the studies that have, for decades, been trying to "prove" that men are "logical," women "emotional."

Originally Posted by mariamma

Why do men have such a difficult time understanding women and vice versa? It's because gender is significant, because of the action of gender-creating hormones. Now there is no normal....but there is gender.

Pure stereotype. The stereotype of "men don't understand women" is one that is cultivated into a child since the beginning. It's self-prophesising. In some languages and cultures there is no concept of gender, only sex. The differences in the approaches to trans rights in English and French Canada are a very good example of the above.

[Melissa]

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

I am taking a literary theory class, and this week is "Feminism week," so our assigned readings included "Gener Trouble," by Judith Butler
I found it very triggery! And I am kinda feeling like holding her responsible for a lot of the "shoulding" i went through throughout the 90's

Basically, what i think she says in "Gender Trouble" is that there is no innate masculinity or femininity and we are all just performing arbitrary social constructions

I feel like she is telling me i don't exist! That my butch does not exist! That transitioning FTMs/MTFs are putting themselves through surgery for nothing!

I need to be ready to discuss this by Wednesday, and I see that she has written a lot more since "Gender Trouble"- so maybe it is possible that she refined her views?

I am kinda crowd-sourcing this inquiry since I have to write a paper about Nietzsche's "On Truth and Lies in a Nonmoral Sense" this weekend and so I do not have time to follow up on Butler like I would like to

So I am asking ya'll- does anyone else feel this way about that piece? Does she revise her views later on?

How am I going to talk about her as a theorist without personalizing the issue?

What that really be so bad if i DID personalize the issue?

I don't believe she is saying that gender doesn't exist, she is arguing though that it comes into existence through repetition and that we perform gender. Remember it is only theory and there are a lot of competing gender theories.