Let's talk about Judith Butler

[Melissa]

Originally Posted by boobookitty

I totally 100% do NOT agree... I have lived with animals and small childrem through my entire life.. gender expression has a basis in brain function balanced with hormonal effect.

Gender Roles, are learned - social constructs, which vary according to the culture of our up bringing.

male and female are not the only genders -

someone who is Neutrois or Androgynous could very well fit the discriptions presented in those quotes. As could someone who is gender fluid.

My gender is not / was not -- a choice.

I don't agree that Butler sees gender as a choice or something similar to clothing that one puts on. She argues that it is normalized through repetition and so "feels" natural when it is really cultural.

melissa

[boobookitty]

Originally Posted by Melissa

I don't agree that Butler sees gender as a choice or something similar to clothing that one puts on. She argues that it is normalized through repetition and so "feels" natural when it is really cultural.

melissa

yes she does...

on the video in this very thread, at time stamp 1:11 .."we act as if ... it is a fact no body really is a gender from the start .. thats my claim.." through 1:35

and at timestamp 2:30 ... "its my view that gender is culturally formed"

--her words--

and my life experience does not agree. I know gender is variable, not a fixed point... gender roles and gender expression and gender pressentation are all cultural... internal gender awareness, is a product of our body via the brain and hormones and biological sex. How we interpret our internal experience is cultural...

social culture... is a system of chosen behaviors ... hence culture is choice, or better said cultural expression is a choice.... if she used the term "gender expression" instead of only stating "gender" ... I would agree with most of what she says. But "gender' and 'gender expression' are not the same thing.

[dark_crystal]

Originally Posted by Melissa

I don't agree that Butler sees gender as a choice or something similar to clothing that one puts on. She argues that it is normalized through repetition and so "feels" natural when it is really cultural.

melissa

My quibble is that, to me, this only makes sense for the cisgendered. I feel like she implies there is no such thing as transgender **

**although i am cisgendered and i would never presume to speak to what transgender "is," which is what i would be doing if i went toe-to-toe on her assertions

which is precisely my problem- Butler does not let her cisgendered perspective stop her from making assumptions about what transgendered individuals are thinking and feeling

I particularly don't like the way she takes the David Reimer case and decides for herself what led him to report that he "felt like a boy"

[boobookitty]

I have learned about gender issues because I had to understand in order to survive. I make a diliberate effort in include all the various gender expressions when I talk about gender... or I try to remember to place the correct quailfiers on my comments.

The variations are endless.... for anyone to make statements based on their own perpective of their own experience, ...to the effect of being "more correct" than someone else. Well, ...

There are so many people who are searching for the words to discribe and explain who they are, and are looking for some point of connection with another human who shared some part of their path in life. To feel less alone and a place to 'fit in' ... to find such a slanted view of the issue, (as Butler presents) that is heartbreaking to me, ...

I keep thinking of the trangender kid who is trying to fit into the social construct of what they should be... (being sarcastic here) .. because according to Butler, "gender is culturally formed" ... and can not make themself "fit" into the
cultural form, ..because it is not a choice.. it happens and we have to learn to deal with and live with it...

hopefully they can find someone who understands that gender issues, are a wide and far reaching spectrum... before its too late for them to find peace and happiness with who they are inside.

[Novelafemme]

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

My quibble is that, to me, this only makes sense for the cisgendered. I feel like she implies there is no such thing as transgender **

**although i am cisgendered and i would never presume to speak to what transgender "is," which is what i would be doing if i went toe-to-toe on her assertions

which is precisely my problem- Butler does not let her cisgendered perspective stop her from making assumptions about what transgendered individuals are thinking and feeling

I particularly don't like the way she takes the David Reimer case and decides for herself what led him to report that he "felt like a boy"

Queer theorists like Judith Butler are relatively new to the world of transgender issues. She, like author/Chicana activist Cherrie Moraga, are quite forthcoming about their individual struggles with transphobia. For latent second wave feminists like them, the struggle is very internal and often goes against their anti-assimilation backgrounds. I am not saying they are right or wrong, rather inserting a bit of information that might shed some light.

added: by anti-assimilation I mean that some people feel transgender males have divorced themselves from the feminist community by "assimilating" into the heterosexual world. NOT ME! But "some people"

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Novelafemme

Queer theorists like Judith Butler are relatively new to the world of transgender issues. She, like author/Chicana activist Cherrie Moraga, are quite forthcoming about their individual struggles with transphobia. For latent second wave feminists like them, the struggle is very internal and often goes against their anti-assimilation backgrounds. I am not saying they are right or wrong, rather inserting a bit of information that might shed some light.

added: by anti-assimilation I mean that some people feel transgender males have divorced themselves from the feminist community by "assimilating" into the heterosexual world. NOT ME! But "some people"

Yeah, both Butler and Halberstam seem to still carry these opinions about transguys, in particular. You can see them trying to work through it in their later works, but it still shines through pretty strong. They both also have trouble seeing transmen as transmen, instead of "biological women" with a "gender identification" that makes them fully identify as male. Again...yeah...they have their theories definitely have their problems. That isn't to say there isn't something useful to be taken out of it, as a lot of what they say about performativity and hetero/homonormativity is still very useful in the post-marriage rights/post-homo age of successful white gay dudes who think no one undergoes oppression anymore.