"The Headpat" - A Femme's Place

[Medusa]

This discussion didn't really feel at home in very many other threads in the zone so I wanted to start one here.

When I think of "headpatting", I think of how there have been times when it felt as if a Femme was expected to "know her place" in discussions, times when Femmes speaking up about their opinions were met with placating and patronizing.

I am interested in hearing from other Femmes about times they have felt "headpatted" by Butches, Transmen, and other Femmes. How did it manifest? How did it feel? Why do you think it happened?

I have had this discussion with a few of my girlfriends over the years but am interested in an expanded discussion.

Have you felt headpatted as a result of exercising a dominant voice? Do you see this as a symptom of sexism? Do you see this as a tool of silencing?

I'll add more in a bit.

[princessbelle]

I'm not sure that i am on the right track here with what you are saying but i'll give my .2

When i think of head patting done to me personally, I see it more online than in person. For the most part, people take me pretty seriously in real time at least with peeps that know me well.

I've seen it thrown out to other people probably more than i have endured. I've also saw the phrase said when i wasn't sure if that was really what was going on. Of course no one would really know that except the parties involved but i would bet i've seen it as an excuse during a disagreement as well.

Again, personally, I'm not superwoman and i do have feelings but usually i pay no attention because to myself i think "you have no clue who the hell you are dealing with". I think our femme community as a whole, is so strong and so formidable that it usually is called out quick. I know it is done here occasionally, but i think it isn't near the degree of what i've seen on other sites and in real life. Thank goodness.

Now in real time, in the bio world, i see a lot of head patting directed toward women in general. This has been going on for eons.

I want to throw this in because it is true that online i've seen it the other way around too. Femme's doing head patting to masculine folk and to other femmes.

It certainly goes both ways.

[gaea]

not really understanding the term headpatting however getting the jist of it by means of the explanations set forth.

personally I have dealt with this by means of beig silenced and or patronized. This often times is irritating because I have a voice an opinions when this happens I will usually dismiss myself from a conversation and or excuse myself all together from the room. This has happened not only in my community here however also by bio men as well as my gay brothers.

This has also happened with femme friend here in my community where many times I have been expected to or told to "dumb" down so that I become more likeable, I won't dumb down for anyone I'm not sure if this is even a part of this headpatting thing.

recently I experienced some conversations where I wasn't even heard and spoken to as if I had no brain...I no longer speak to that person.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I tend to experience this here (online) and via bio men and on a bad day when she's cycling my mother wants to do it. It's mostly when I have something to say that is either an opinion or a correct observation. It pisses me off and when I tend to call the person out on it, the deflection and bull shit back peddling starts.

I experienced it with Femmes more on a academic level, it's hard to pick out if said person can pretty it up with big words.

Either way that kind of shit makes me want to yank someone's hair out or at least that's the kind of feeling that arises when it happens.


I see folks head pat submissives.bottom identifed butches, men, transguys that too is tied to some serious sexism and other ugly shit or with butch women I see it when they have opposite views on hard conversations. It's pretty icky.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I tend to experience this here (online) and via bio men and on a bad day when she's cycling my mother wants to do it. It's mostly when I have something to say that is either an opinion or a correct observation. It pisses me off and when I tend to call the person out on it, the deflection and bull shit back peddling starts.

I experienced it with Femmes more on a academic level, it's hard to pick out if said person can pretty it up with big words.

Either way that kind of shit makes me want to yank someone's hair out or at least that's the kind of feeling that arises when it happens.


I see folks head pat submissives.bottom identifed butches, men, transguys that too is tied to some serious sexism and other ugly shit or with butch women I see it when they have opposite views on hard conversations. It's pretty icky.

this. First thing i thought about when i read the first post of this thread.

i've been head patted by someone who made the mistake of thinking i am subservient to the world because i am someone's submissive.

We got that straightened out.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

this. First thing i thought about when i read the first post of this thread.

i've been head patted by someone who made the mistake of thinking i am subservient to the world because i am someone's submissive.

We got that straightened out.

This is such a salient point from you and Snowy and really speaks to perceived power. (and I don't mean that disrespectfully).
I'll try to muddle through this as best I can - Like, I think about how some of the head-patting I have been on the receiving end of has been from folks who perceived themselves to be in positions of power over me. Either as a Top, a "Daddy", an older person, a thinner person, a more educated person, etc.

How have you addressed this in your own experiences?

I have usually said something along the lines of "You may be a Daddy but you ain't *my* Daddy" and "That's great that you are older and have more experience but this is what *I* have experienced".

I do try to be mindful of my own head-patting stuff when talking to other folks and keep an open mind so that I can always learn from other folks without my own filter of "already know".

[Martina]

I have to commend several butches and genderqueer folk on this site for supporting my voice here. I am not quiet or demure or whatever gender stereotypes would suggest I ought to be. I really appreciate the thanks and comments I have gotten from them over the years -- even when they have disagreed with me.

Offline, I have to agree with Belle, I don't get a lot of it. Sometimes someone will say something "helpful" that is crossing a boundary, meaning I didn't ask for their advice and they don't know me well enough to just offer it without my asking. A look is usually all it takes.

[GreeneyedMe]

I find it rude and demeaning. Hurtful, disrespectful. Like a femme is supposed to sit quietly and look pretty and not be heard....um, no.

I have a strong voice and opinion at times....I will be heard. I would not appreciate a headpat as a way to silence me....at all.

It has been done to me in the past, and I sweetly yet firmly suggested it not be done to me again.

It feels awful...like you don't matter in the situation....

I am not a dog....reserve headpatting for the furbabies please.

[Gemme]

I do find headpatting incredibly dismissive and, thusly silencing. I've seen it happen both here and in rt and it plays out across the gender spectrum.

Usually, when it happens directly to me, it's coming from a factory model man and it's usually my boss.

[Hollylane]

I have been head-patted before by people I have dated. It did not produce the desired result, unless it was that they wanted to be single. I am a strong, intelligent, sensitive, empathetic, outspoken, and opinionated woman. I know my place, it is existing and being treated as an equal within my personal relationships.

I feel fortunate to be a part of this online community, where people are taken to task by moderators and other members for "head-patting" type behavior, and because of this, it does not seem to rare its head here often.

This has happened to me multiple times at work and other times in my life as well. However, I think that the question posed in this thread was aimed toward experiencing this within our own community on and offline.

[genghisfawn]

I didn't reveal my age here for a long time because I knew I'd get headpatted. There there, you're not old enough to have any idea.

I'm 28. I've had personal tragedy. I've suffered from illness. I miscarried the only child I was ever able to conceive some years ago. I grew up with a special needs brother and a drug-addict father, my mother doing the best she could. I've loved very deeply. I've lost very painfully. I've travelled. I've lived alone. I've had an education. I've worked hard and enjoyed it.

I may not know what someone else knows, no matter how old they are, but I have my own experiences. I have not welcomed or courted condescending behaviour from anyone, and those who are politely asked to refrain are courteously despatched if they don't stop. I also refuse to condescend to anyone on the basis of age.

Butches, I'm sorry to say, are the most condescending. Sometimes femmes, but mainly within my own local community this happens (it's a femme-eat-femme world here, I'm afraid.)

Suffice to say that although it's tempting, when someone says to me, "When I was your age, chicken, back in the day..." to respond with "SHADDAP OLDZ LOL", I never would. But sometimes... sometimes... I know who I am and I know better than they do, but it would be so terribly satisfying. Swat the hand that pats me, indeed.

[JustJo]

Oddly enough I am rarely, if ever, head-patted in my real life. I get the occasional head pat locally in environments that are related to cars, home improvements, etc. Part of this may be because I'm female....and part may be because I truly don't know what is going on most of the time in these areas and it shows.

Tcountry and I laughed about this when hy came out to fix my roof. We were in Lowe's, in the tool section, and hy was about 6 or 8 feet in front of me. No doubt I had a bewildered look on my face, standing there in my floral dress, when a very nice man came up and offered me his card.....general handyman services.

He did not offer one to T.

Is this condescension? It could be seen that way. I prefer to think of it as good marketing and a good sense of who future customers might be. And, yes, I kept his card.

I have NEVER experienced a head pat in my professional work, even though I work with a lot of bio-males, and many people who technically outrank me in the workplace.

Where I have most often experienced it is in our community....online...and most often by femmes.

I think, in part, it's because they don't actually know me. They may have read my posts for years, but if we've never met then they only THINK they know me. I think the anonymous nature of the internet makes people more willing to be rude, condescending, or just plain nasty.

In person, I doubt the same dynamic would be in play.

Having said that....has it happened often here? No. It's been isolated, and only from a very small handful of people.

I prefer to think of it as their issue, not mine.

[Talon]

Originally Posted by Medusa

This discussion didn't really feel at home in very many other threads in the zone so I wanted to start one here.

When I think of "headpatting", I think of how there have been times when it felt as if a Femme was expected to "know her place" in discussions, times when Femmes speaking up about their opinions were met with placating and patronizing.

I am interested in hearing from other Femmes about times they have felt "headpatted" by Butches, Transmen, and other Femmes. How did it manifest? How did it feel? Why do you think it happened?

I have had this discussion with a few of my girlfriends over the years but am interested in an expanded discussion.

Have you felt headpatted as a result of exercising a dominant voice? Do you see this as a symptom of sexism? Do you see this as a tool of silencing?

I'll add more in a bit.

These are some very thought-provoking questions, Medusa.
Yes, I've had this happen before. Suprisingly, it's been older heterosexual women, more than any other group.

Which for me, was always a difficult thing because I was brought up to give respect to my elders, and to listen and to learn from their mistakes, as well as their experiences. So, for a long time, I would just listen to them, even if they were "headpatting" me on and off throughout the conversation.

But I did listen...and when you just listen and observe..you can learn at a very rapid pace. And eventually, I was taking that knowledge and expanding upon it. Therefore, "the student was out-learning the teacher", so-to-speak.

And then when that same individual (older than me, or not) would try to dismiss me again, I wouldn't whine about it. I would simply show him/her/hym/ect...what I did learn about the given subject...beyond even their scope..and then it usually doesn't happen again, w/ that person. I find this very effective,no matter who it is. I don't do that in a disrespectful or offensive manner, I just simply allow them to see me.

To me, every person or child has a valid voice and the right to express it without being shut down. As humans we all have a unequivocal *need* to express what we feel. A NEED.And that is expressed uniquely through the individual.

I don't know if it's coming from a sexist or silencing position, because I can't read another's history, experiences, trauma's, upbringing...ect. And I believe how we treat others, or how we move through the world, is a mixture of all of those things that make up that person's behaviors.

It's hard for me to get angry when this happens, because when someone's doing that, it says more about them, than it does about me. And sometimes, to me, it can even feel stragely nurturing...depending on the person and the circumstances, of course.

Do I do it, or have I done it?
Hmmmm....I'm sure that I have. But, I have not heard that specifically from anyone, yet.
If I had, I would hope that they would be straight with me, and just tell me how I really made them feel and why, now or later, at some point. It would be a learning experience for me, and I do welcome that.

There is a saying that I always try to keep somewhere in the forefront of my mind:

I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.

>Maya Angelou

[Zimmeh]

I had this happen to me on the dash site and I just chose not to allow the person who started the head patting, to know that they got to me. I have more of this happening in real time. I grew up in a family that my dad was the boss and my mother and I had no voice. It has taking me many years to get over this and now, I won't allow anyone to silence me. The other day at work, my boss did this to me since my job at the school is *temporary* and some of the employees treat you as such. I finally went to my manager and said, "You don't pay me enough to put up with attitude and shit from these people". I graduated from this college and never felt like they would treat an alumni like this. I almost told them to shove the job and quit but I chose to talk it out with someone and now I will be officially taking it to Human Resources...

Zimmeh

[girl_dee]

This may not fit in this thread but i wanted to share, i just LOVE Hillary Clinton.


MODERATOR 1: Okay. Which designers do you prefer?
SECRETARY CLINTON: What designers of clothes?
MODERATOR 1: Yes.
SECRETARY CLINTON: Would you ever ask a man that question? (Laughter.) (Applause.)
MODERATOR 1: Probably not. Probably not. (Applause.)