Olivia Cruisers? Carribean Sun Cruise October 30th

[Billy]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I am a lesbian butch with a masculine appearance. I don't think I would have a problem if I wanted to go. As to butches and appearance you really can't tell by looking at someone whether they are lesbian or not. Many butches are lesbian. Some are not.

I bet the price of that cruise your not going to get on Because you are masculine looking ..They have already said you are not welcome ...I could be wrong and I have been all day ..lol But I think someone posted a letter from them ...

[Isadora]

wow, I have been on one with Schon and a bunch of b/f people. Really? No one bothered us. No one called us names. No one wanted to check our Schon's hoo hoo for authentication. Schon is a pretty masculine butch.

I wore a dress, Schon wore a suit for dinners and special events. There were lots of other couples like us and lots that were not. We even won the Newlywed/Oldywed contest in front of 600 participants. They were more freaked out about us being Poly. Funny how people pull there g/f's closer like Imma gonna throw em down and run away with them.

Now men may find it different but there were lots of b/f people on our little trip almost 11 years ago.

*shrug*

[Billy]

Originally Posted by Isadora

wow, I have been on one with Schon and a bunch of b/f people. Really? No one bothered us. No one called us names. No one wanted to check our Schon's hoo hoo for authentication. Schon is a pretty masculine butch.

I wore a dress, Schon wore a suit for dinners and special events. There were lots of other couples like us and lots that were not. We even won the Newlywed/Oldywed contest in front of 600 participants. They were more freaked out about us being Poly. Funny how people pull there g/f's closer like Imma gonna throw em down and run away with them.

Now men may find it different but there were lots of b/f people on our little trip almost 11 years ago.

*shrug*

It's always a pleasure to see you

If I may ask ..Was this cruise with the same cruise line or was it another cruise line ......And I am wondering if they changed policy's since then ...

[Isadora]

Originally Posted by Billy

It's always a pleasure to see you

If I may ask ..Was this cruise with the same cruise line or was it another cruise line ......And I am wondering if they changed policy's since then ...

*smiles Thank you!

Same cruise line Olivia...same people. We actually flew in with Judy Dlugacz. I met Judy years ago when Olivia was a recording company. I have no idea. Did they say you couldn't come? I must be missing something. LOL

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by nycfembbw

From:
"Olivia GuestServices" <GUESTSERVICES@OLIVIA.COM>
Add sender to Contacts

Hello -

Olivia strives to provide an all Lesbian environment but we have had MTF transgendered guests join us on our vacations. Although we do not discriminate, you will find that your presence is upsetting to some of our guests. Some will confront you directly asking "why are you on my Lesbian vacation?" I imagine it would be even harder for our guests to accept someone FTM.

I know this is discouraging, but it is important for you to understand because it disrupts the Olivia experience we work hard to provide for our guests. If you have any questions or need anything more please feel free to e-mail me at guestservices@olivia.com or call 800-631-6277, option 2.



Thank you,



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Jeri Umble
sr. director, customer care


olivia
434 brannan street
san francisco ca 94107

415.962.5700 tel
415.962-5713 fax

feel free
www.olivia.com

does this qualify as he shouldn't come?

[Billy]

Originally Posted by Isadora

*smiles Thank you!

Same cruise line Olivia...same people. We actually flew in with Judy Dlugacz. I met Judy years ago when Olivia was a recording company. I have no idea. Did they say you couldn't come? I must be missing something. LOL

I am glad you enjoyed you time on the cruise But I think since then they have changed their policy it seems ....They seem to have issues with the more masculine looking Lesbians or butch /stone etc .....As for Me it's a given , I am not surprised by this at all ...

[Isadora]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

does this qualify as he shouldn't come?

Wow. Really? Did you mean to come across as accusatory and nasty or is it just me? I have never seen this. Sad. I read the whole thread. I had no idea. Lots of things change over the years. I bet all the butches I watched play basketball on the cruise would be horrified.

[Medusa]

My thoughts on this subject:

I think that Olivia cruises has an absolute right to cater their cruises to whoever they want their target audience to be. Hell, we do that here
I also have heard some very wonderful stories from people who have gone on Olivia cruises and a few stories where people didn't have such a good time for various reasons. I have been privy to one story where a woman who was very masculine was given a hard time by a crew member, a bartender, and one of the people checking them in.

I have personally never been on an Olivia cruise but I have been on Princess cruises. I chose Princess cruises over an Olivia cruise because at the time, it was an issue of cost. (not knowing about the recent communications about their policies). Olivia cruises were, at that time, about 40% more expensive than the other line.

I don't think that people who go on Olivia cruises are bad people at all. I don't think Olivia cruises is a bad cruise line. I do think that their policies for Queer folks can feel exclusionary for Transwomen and masculine folks.

Because of the people who make up the membership of this website, our site will never host a Reunion party or, for that matter, a party of any kind with Olivia cruises or Olivia resorts. We owe it to our membership to consider their safety and comfort when we choose locations.
We won't always be in spaces that are specifically Queer, but we'll do our best to pick an awesome place that is welcoming, accessible, and also financially accessible.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Isadora

Wow. Really? Did you mean to come across as accusatory and nasty or is it just me? I have never seen this. Sad. I read the whole thread. I had no idea. Lots of things change over the years. I bet all the butches I watched play basketball on the cruise would be horrified.

It's just you. That's okay though, I forgive you for thinking that. I really was simply reposting the info because I felt it answered your question.

[Isadora]

sad sad sad

I really am saddened by this. It is like the closing of windows and doors...the blocking off of community. I won't go on Olivia for many reasons again but I did have fun on the one I went on and no one was treated badly that I saw or heard of...

*shrug*

[Billy]

Originally Posted by Medusa

My thoughts on this subject:

I think that Olivia cruises has an absolute right to cater their cruises to whoever they want their target audience to be. Hell, we do that here
I also have heard some very wonderful stories from people who have gone on Olivia cruises and a few stories where people didn't have such a good time for various reasons. I have been privy to one story where a woman who was very masculine was given a hard time by a crew member, a bartender, and one of the people checking them in.

I have personally never been on an Olivia cruise but I have been on Princess cruises. I chose Princess cruises over an Olivia cruise because at the time, it was an issue of cost. (not knowing about the recent communications about their policies). Olivia cruises were, at that time, about 40% more expensive than the other line.

I don't think that people who go on Olivia cruises are bad people at all. I don't think Olivia cruises is a bad cruise line. I do think that their policies for Queer folks can feel exclusionary for Transwomen and masculine folks.

Because of the people who make up the membership of this website, our site will never host a Reunion party or, for that matter, a party of any kind with Olivia cruises or Olivia resorts. We owe it to our membership to consider their safety and comfort when we choose locations.
We won't always be in spaces that are specifically Queer, but we'll do our best to pick an awesome place that is welcoming, accessible, and also financially accessible.

Oh I agree with you ..They have every right to cater to whom ever they wish ...And for Me it's a given and I do understand that someone like Me on a Lesbian cruise is not cool I have no problem with that ... I think it's sad that they are going by looks instead of how someone Id's ...

My point with bulldog and MysticOcean was because of YOUR looks your not getting on that ship ..Doesn't matter how you ID ...And why take a chance with your money , knowing a head of time they will not let you on .

[nycfem]

I think that the problem is not that an MTF, very masculine appearing butch, or anyone trans identified WILL be discriminated against; it's that if that should happen, Olivia does not take a stand that they have our backs. I was struck that Olivia's response was very sly. Perhaps for legal reasons the customer care director cannot simply say that Olivia doesn't want anyone on the trans spectrum, including lesbian identified MTFs:

"Olivia strives to provide an all Lesbian environment but we have had MTF transgendered guests join us on our vacations. Although we do not discriminate, you will find that your presence is upsetting to some of our guests. Some will confront you directly asking "why are you on my Lesbian vacation?"

The "but" is particularly interesting, as in my world MTFs who ID as lesbian ARE lesbians!

Before I inquired I checked their whole website and noticed that "T" was nowhere in site. Just as at the Mich Fest there are supporters and allies of trans women, so is true at Olivia. But whereas at Mich Fest it's their land and they can dictate (Lisa and Boo), some of the issues might be different legally for a cruise to begin saying who is a certain gender and who is not. That's why I think that the extreme prejudice in the email is so underhanded and "polite." It's very careful. But not careful enough- I'm glad she put it in writing!

[Gayla]

Originally Posted by Isadora

sad sad sad

I really am saddened by this. It is like the closing of windows and doors...the blocking off of community. I won't go on Olivia for many reasons again but I did have fun on the one I went on and no one was treated badly that I saw or heard of...

*shrug*

It's been awhile since I've thought about Olivia as anything other than the cruise people but when I stop and remember what they used to be, to me personally, it is sad. They did really important things that had a very formative effect on me.

[Isadora]

Originally Posted by gayla

It's been awhile since I've thought about Olivia as anything other than the cruise people but when I stop and remember what they used to be, to me personally, it is sad. They did really important things that had a very formative effect on me.

Exactly. Pushing 60, I am saddened by the who they are now, how they don't open to the wonders of the world they helped create, to rejoice in people being free and being themselves. This is what I remember, not this cruel lack of compassion and social justice.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by Isadora

Exactly. Pushing 60, I am saddened by the who they are now, how they don't open to the wonders of the world they helped create, to rejoice in people being free and being themselves. This is what I remember, not this cruel lack of compassion and social justice.

I had no idea they used to be a recording company! I'd actually love to hear more about that
(Going to Google!)

[Gayla]

Originally Posted by Medusa

I had no idea they used to be a recording company! I'd actually love to hear more about that
(Going to Google!)

This what I used to know them as. And if you scroll down to the album covers, I think I owned most of those at one point.

This was very cool to find.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Rider-Cris-Williamson/dp/B0006SST0Y"]This [/ame]was my first and I still listen to it somewhat regularly.

Between the bookstores I ran and the concerts/festivals I was a part of, I worked with both Olivia and Ladyslipper for a good number of years. Some amazing women doing some amazing things at the time.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by nycfembbw

I think that the problem is not that an MTF, very masculine appearing butch, or anyone trans identified WILL be discriminated against; it's that if that should happen, Olivia does not take a stand that they have our backs. I was struck that Olivia's response was very sly. Perhaps for legal reasons the customer care director cannot simply say that Olivia doesn't want anyone on the trans spectrum, including lesbian identified MTFs:

"Olivia strives to provide an all Lesbian environment but we have had MTF transgendered guests join us on our vacations. Although we do not discriminate, you will find that your presence is upsetting to some of our guests. Some will confront you directly asking "why are you on my Lesbian vacation?"

The "but" is particularly interesting, as in my world MTFs who ID as lesbian ARE lesbians!

Before I inquired I checked their whole website and noticed that "T" was nowhere in site. Just as at the Mich Fest there are supporters and allies of trans women, so is true at Olivia. But whereas at Mich Fest it's their land and they can dictate (Lisa and Boo), some of the issues might be different legally for a cruise to begin saying who is a certain gender and who is not. That's why I think that the extreme prejudice in the email is so underhanded and "polite." It's very careful. But not careful enough- I'm glad she put it in writing!

For some reason, I keep getting stuck on this:

"you will find that your presence is upsetting to some of our guests"

"will find" ...as if it has happened before? Maybe this is why they changed their policies?

Also, "upsetting" ...as in someone would freak out?

Such a weird way to answer the email...

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

hi Bulldog!!!
hi folks!!!

appearance aside i think there is a difference in how a group of female id'd butches are gonna be perceived/received by olivia than a group of male id'd butches.

How so? How would anyone know? Many of you just were at the BFP Reunion or have been in a group of butches where they were various identities. Are you telling me that male id'd butches look and act different than woman/female butches?

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Billy

I bet the price of that cruise your not going to get on Because you are masculine looking ..They have already said you are not welcome ...I could be wrong and I have been all day ..lol But I think someone posted a letter from them ...

Billy, I have been a lesbian for 30 years and have very masculine butch friends as well. We have never been turned away from lesbian events.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Medusa

My thoughts on this subject:

I think that Olivia cruises has an absolute right to cater their cruises to whoever they want their target audience to be. Hell, we do that here
I also have heard some very wonderful stories from people who have gone on Olivia cruises and a few stories where people didn't have such a good time for various reasons. I have been privy to one story where a woman who was very masculine was given a hard time by a crew member, a bartender, and one of the people checking them in.

I have personally never been on an Olivia cruise but I have been on Princess cruises. I chose Princess cruises over an Olivia cruise because at the time, it was an issue of cost. (not knowing about the recent communications about their policies). Olivia cruises were, at that time, about 40% more expensive than the other line.

I don't think that people who go on Olivia cruises are bad people at all. I don't think Olivia cruises is a bad cruise line. I do think that their policies for Queer folks can feel exclusionary for Transwomen and masculine folks.

Because of the people who make up the membership of this website, our site will never host a Reunion party or, for that matter, a party of any kind with Olivia cruises or Olivia resorts. We owe it to our membership to consider their safety and comfort when we choose locations.
We won't always be in spaces that are specifically Queer, but we'll do our best to pick an awesome place that is welcoming, accessible, and also financially accessible.

I absolutely agree with this.