The Femme Continuum: The "Highs" and "Lows" of Visibility - Page 6

The_Lady_Snow · 05-18-2010, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blush

I ask this honestly, not snotty, cause you could prolly whip me around quite a bit...

Is it only femmes? Or do "we" (the collective we) just notice it more and remember it more?

I've seen it from both sides of the fence.

Woof right??

*I* was coming from my POV and what I have seen more of.

Make sense?

blush · 05-18-2010, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I can NOT be the only one on the interwebz who has witnessed a Femme and a male Id'd Butch fall in love. Glitter and unicorns ensue. THEN they break up.
Inevitably, the Femme will come to a thread and switch to using female pronouns and birth names in an attempt to emasculate said Butch.

THAT makes me crazy and is a thousand time worse than being lazy or making a simple mistake.

I'm not the only one? Am I?

I've seen that.

I've also seen butches use female pronouns/emasculating phrases when referring to their ex's male-identified partner.

christie · 05-18-2010, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

No that is not what is being said at all from what I gather from *any* of the femme's who have voiced their opinions on this and experiences.

Thank you

This felt incredibly dismissive and silencing.

I merely posted what *my* opinion was on the post I quoted.

If your experience/opinion is different, I am sure it could have been stated without the implied tone.

SuperFemme · 05-18-2010, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blush

I've seen that.

I've also seen butches use female pronouns/emasculating phrases when referring to their ex's male-identified partner.

Right? I've seen that too.

blush · 05-18-2010, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by christie0918

To expand on what I think you are saying here....

Its like we are held to a different/higher standard as if we should "know better"

It can seem that way. Butches and transmen do not get the same amount of backlash that femmes do for misconstruing (intentionally or not) pronouns.

SuperFemme · 05-18-2010, 08:10 PM

So. Moving away from the he/hy she/shy proper pronoun debate...

Do any Femmes here use a pronoun other than she/shy? I'm combing my dendrites to think if I have run into this and cannot come up with anyone.

Remember though, I have a memory like the girl in 50 First Dates. So just cuz I can't think of any doesn't mean they aren't out there.

Nat · 05-18-2010, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

So. Moving away from the he/hy she/shy proper pronoun debate...

Do any Femmes here use a pronoun other than she/shy? I'm combing my dendrites to think if I have run into this and cannot come up with anyone.

Remember though, I have a memory like the girl in 50 First Dates. So just cuz I can't think of any doesn't mean they aren't out there.

I wouldn't mind "zie" if it ever took off enough for me to get used to it. I wouldn't mind "he" if it wasn't said with malicious intent.

The_Lady_Snow · 05-18-2010, 09:10 PM

I know someone that uses

hir

Dunno if that is the same as what you are asking though

SuperFemme · 05-18-2010, 09:13 PM

I wonder what are the ways that Femme's feel umm...femmasculated?
Like how does it look when someone takes a swipe at your femininity?
Because I don't think it looks the same as emasculating.

The_Lady_Snow · 05-18-2010, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I wonder what are the ways that Femme's feel umm...femmasculated?
Like how does it look when someone takes a swipe at your femininity?
Because I don't think it looks the same as emasculating.

I am sure the hell not gonna go first on this one

SuperFemme · 05-18-2010, 09:28 PM

I will go first.
How about being told that you are "butch".
I have heard this in a jovial/joking manner in reference to my..uh...type A personality. As if being forceful, determined, or smart is somehow a butch trait.

I don't take it as a compliment. Same with somebody throwing around the word: Toppy or Topping when I am forceful, determined or smart.

I hope that this makes sense and doesn't feel like I am saying that *butch* is an insult in general. I'm not.

betenoire · 05-18-2010, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I wonder what are the ways that Femme's feel umm...femmasculated?
Like how does it look when someone takes a swipe at your femininity?
Because I don't think it looks the same as emasculating.

Maybe it doesn't look the same as emasculating, but it's just as hurtful.

I will gleefully scratch at the eyes of anybody who questions the femininity or femmeness of myself or my pretty lady friends. Particularly since that questioning is always (fucking always!) in response to us showing our strength, our brains, out independence.

Fuck That.

SuperFemme · 05-18-2010, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betenoire

Maybe it doesn't look the same as emasculating, but it's just as hurtful.

I will gleefully scratch at the eyes of anybody who questions the femininity or femmeness of myself or my pretty lady friends. Particularly since that questioning is always (fucking always!) in response to us showing our strength, our brains, out independence.

Fuck That.

Right? You make me love you. I'll send you cash for that pizza m'kay?

SassyLeo · 05-18-2010, 09:50 PM

I use She/Her

Because of my strong willed/assertive/bossy way, I have been teased at various points.... mostly by a friend or in the community as a joke kind of thing among Femmes. No worries there.

I know a few lesbian identified friend couples who are not "into" the Butch Femme community... once in a while one will say something about the other sort of off the cuff, like - "oh my girlfriend totally butched it up last weekend and fixed water heater" or "my partner totally dragged it up for an interview...she wore a woman's pantsuit"

If this is out how they talk about themselves in the privacy of their own relationship, that's fine. If they do it because they don't necessarily know any better, ok I'll give them that.

But if someone in the community (not a friend) called my bossiness butch-y or if I told a story about doing something that was "considered" masculine and they labeled it butch-y, I would be irked.

The_Lady_Snow · 05-18-2010, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betenoire

Maybe it doesn't look the same as emasculating, but it's just as hurtful.

I will gleefully scratch at the eyes of anybody who questions the femininity or femmeness of myself or my pretty lady friends. Particularly since that questioning is always (fucking always!) in response to us showing our strength, our brains, out independence.

Fuck That.

She said it best

FUCK THAT...

Another thing I have heard..

All you need is a nice butch so you can settle down...

Um no I don't and I sure the fuck ain't gonna settle....

betenoire · 05-18-2010, 09:55 PM

Yeah, settling is something that debris does.

SuperFemme · 05-18-2010, 09:59 PM

How about the look of amazement when you put together an Ikea cabinet or use a power tool on something? Like it's a big huge deal...OR a look of horror if you announce you do not like shopping. Or shoes.

Tommi · 05-18-2010, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

How about the look of amazement when you put together an Ikea cabinet or use a power tool on something? Like it's a big huge deal...OR a look of horror if you announce you do not like shopping. Or shoes.

Or when she lifts the suitcase out of the trunk wehn your back is turned, like it was heavy as a newspaper

sneaking in under the cover of Pacific Daylight TIme

apretty · 05-18-2010, 10:25 PM

i've experienced more attempts at perpetuating femme-hierarchy when getting to know less attractive and stupid butches.

my experience. me. only.

and to be totally fair--i'm SURE that their attractiveness fell from possibly average to *no way* once they began to offer their unsolicited and absurd insights on high-femme (which i don't think exists and they were sure entailed a demure smile, heels and stockings 24/7), relationships (i'm not a so-called 'natural' submissive because they were ill equipped for someone such as myself), and i could go on...

so, perhaps it's that i find intelligence *highly* sexy that i can't quite separate my disgust of the thoughts from the one doing the thinking--but i have found myself in these situations a few times and it's always presented to me in a way to try to knock me down to their size, like 'i'll fuck you but just so's you know...' trying so hard to mask their insecurity at sitting across from me:

oh, you're very attractive, if a little young... and perhaps not what i normally go for (as fucking IF) and i will do you, though you clearly lack real *experience* so you'd better hold on to your seat, little miss--and normally, i date high femmes--oh what are those? those are femmes who wear nylons and high heels, i have an ex who wore heels every day.... (wistful pause) and skirts--you know those tight skirts? ...yes, that's it--pencil skirt.... (implying that my totally cute outfit isn't drag-enough for the pizza place/diner/hole in the wall) wait. where are you going?"

see? not attractive + stupid = not getting any.

apretty · 05-18-2010, 10:36 PM

on the other hand--

i ADORE doing the 'femme' stuff with another femme--i don't feel competitive, i feel supported and love to give support.

i am grateful that i have a local friend who i met (through mack!), and we can discuss the real stuff as well as get absolutely stupid in 'bath and body' saying, 'oh HONEYYYY look at this new DOUCHE!!!' really loud. (really, poor tiger!)

and about the butch that creates this femme-continuum/perpetuates the myth of high vs. low femme (can i be teenage slut femme??) --i've never felt so ERASED. and not accidentally, not the way society sees everything in M or f... more so an attempt to deliberately erase my *femme* entirely.

05-18-2010, 09:10 PM	#108
The_Lady_Snow MILLION $$$ PUSSY How Do You Identify?: Kinky, Raw, Perverted, Uber Queer Alpha Femme Preferred Pronoun?: Iconic Ms. Relationship Status: Keeper of 3, only one has the map to my freckles Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: La Reina del Sur Posts: 22,488 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 32,231 Thanked 80,077 Times in 15,670 Posts Rep Power: 21474875	I know someone that uses hir Dunno if that is the same as what you are asking though __________________ "If you’re going to play these dirty games of ours, then you might as well indulge completely. It’s all about turning back into an animal and that’s the beauty of it. Place your guilt on the sidewalk and take a blow torch to it (guilt is usually worthless anyway). Be perverted, be filthy, do things that mannered people shouldn’t do. If you’re going to be gross then go for it and don’t wimp out."---Master Aiden

05-18-2010, 09:50 PM	#114
SassyLeo Is Grateful How Do You Identify?: Queer Femme Preferred Pronoun?: She Relationship Status: Engaged Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: The PDX Posts: 1,526 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 846 Thanked 1,576 Times in 620 Posts Rep Power: 856202	I use She/Her Because of my strong willed/assertive/bossy way, I have been teased at various points.... mostly by a friend or in the community as a joke kind of thing among Femmes. No worries there. I know a few lesbian identified friend couples who are not "into" the Butch Femme community... once in a while one will say something about the other sort of off the cuff, like - "oh my girlfriend totally butched it up last weekend and fixed water heater" or "my partner totally dragged it up for an interview...she wore a woman's pantsuit" If this is out how they talk about themselves in the privacy of their own relationship, that's fine. If they do it because they don't necessarily know any better, ok I'll give them that. But if someone in the community (not a friend) called my bossiness butch-y or if I told a story about doing something that was "considered" masculine and they labeled it butch-y, I would be irked. __________________ Joy is the best makeup -Anne Lamott

05-18-2010, 09:55 PM	#116
betenoire Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Satan in a Sunday Hat Preferred Pronoun?: Maow Relationship Status: Married Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: The Chemical Valley Posts: 4,086 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 3,312 Thanked 8,740 Times in 2,566 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	Yeah, settling is something that debris does. __________________ bête noire \bet-NWAHR\, noun: One that is particularly disliked or that is to be avoided.

05-18-2010, 10:25 PM	#119
apretty Senior Member How Do You Identify?: femme Preferred Pronoun?: sea shell Relationship Status: married Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: san diego Posts: 1,687 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,927 Thanked 4,373 Times in 1,012 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	i've experienced more attempts at perpetuating femme-hierarchy when getting to know less attractive and stupid butches. my experience. me. only. and to be totally fair--i'm SURE that their attractiveness fell from possibly average to no way once they began to offer their unsolicited and absurd insights on high-femme (which i don't think exists and they were sure entailed a demure smile, heels and stockings 24/7), relationships (i'm not a so-called 'natural' submissive because they were ill equipped for someone such as myself), and i could go on... so, perhaps it's that i find intelligence highly sexy that i can't quite separate my disgust of the thoughts from the one doing the thinking--but i have found myself in these situations a few times and it's always presented to me in a way to try to knock me down to their size, like 'i'll fuck you but just so's you know...' trying so hard to mask their insecurity at sitting across from me: oh, you're very attractive, if a little young... and perhaps not what i normally go for (as fucking IF) and i will do you, though you clearly lack real experience so you'd better hold on to your seat, little miss--and normally, i date high femmes--oh what are those? those are femmes who wear nylons and high heels, i have an ex who wore heels every day.... (wistful pause) and skirts--you know those tight skirts? ...yes, that's it--pencil skirt.... (implying that my totally cute outfit isn't drag-enough for the pizza place/diner/hole in the wall) wait. where are you going?" see? not attractive + stupid = not getting any.

05-18-2010, 08:10 PM	#106
SuperFemme Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Permanently Banned 10/24/2010 Preferred Pronoun?: She. Relationship Status: Married (one of 18,000) Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Atascadero, CA Posts: 4,933 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,309 Thanked 7,108 Times in 2,327 Posts Rep Power: 0	So. Moving away from the he/hy she/shy proper pronoun debate... Do any Femmes here use a pronoun other than she/shy? I'm combing my dendrites to think if I have run into this and cannot come up with anyone. Remember though, I have a memory like the girl in 50 First Dates. So just cuz I can't think of any doesn't mean they aren't out there.

05-18-2010, 09:13 PM	#109
SuperFemme Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Permanently Banned 10/24/2010 Preferred Pronoun?: She. Relationship Status: Married (one of 18,000) Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Atascadero, CA Posts: 4,933 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,309 Thanked 7,108 Times in 2,327 Posts Rep Power: 0	I wonder what are the ways that Femme's feel umm...femmasculated? Like how does it look when someone takes a swipe at your femininity? Because I don't think it looks the same as emasculating.

05-18-2010, 09:28 PM	#111
SuperFemme Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Permanently Banned 10/24/2010 Preferred Pronoun?: She. Relationship Status: Married (one of 18,000) Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Atascadero, CA Posts: 4,933 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,309 Thanked 7,108 Times in 2,327 Posts Rep Power: 0	I will go first. How about being told that you are "butch". I have heard this in a jovial/joking manner in reference to my..uh...type A personality. As if being forceful, determined, or smart is somehow a butch trait. I don't take it as a compliment. Same with somebody throwing around the word: Toppy or Topping when I am forceful, determined or smart. I hope that this makes sense and doesn't feel like I am saying that butch is an insult in general. I'm not.

05-18-2010, 09:59 PM	#117
SuperFemme Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Permanently Banned 10/24/2010 Preferred Pronoun?: She. Relationship Status: Married (one of 18,000) Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Atascadero, CA Posts: 4,933 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,309 Thanked 7,108 Times in 2,327 Posts Rep Power: 0	How about the look of amazement when you put together an Ikea cabinet or use a power tool on something? Like it's a big huge deal...OR a look of horror if you announce you do not like shopping. Or shoes.

05-18-2010, 10:36 PM	#120
apretty Senior Member How Do You Identify?: femme Preferred Pronoun?: sea shell Relationship Status: married Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: san diego Posts: 1,687 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,927 Thanked 4,373 Times in 1,012 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	on the other hand-- i ADORE doing the 'femme' stuff with another femme--i don't feel competitive, i feel supported and love to give support. i am grateful that i have a local friend who i met (through mack!), and we can discuss the real stuff as well as get absolutely stupid in 'bath and body' saying, 'oh HONEYYYY look at this new DOUCHE!!!' really loud. (really, poor tiger!) and about the butch that creates this femme-continuum/perpetuates the myth of high vs. low femme (can i be teenage slut femme??) --i've never felt so ERASED. and not accidentally, not the way society sees everything in M or f... more so an attempt to deliberately erase my femme entirely.