On Maleness, MaleID/Trans Masculinity, Expectations and Being "Less of a Man"

[EnderD_503]

En lieu of the Kye Allums thread and some of the posts made therein, I wanted to start a thread on masculinity and maleness as it pertains to male identities and transmen (though this can also apply to those born biologically male and the expectations surrounding them), as well as the expectations faced as to what makes one "a man" in the modern world. More specifically, I wanted to talk about masculinity and maleness in conjunction with stereotypical feminine/female activities. People say that there is nothing wrong with a masculine/male/transguy enjoying certain traditionally "feminine"/"female" pursuits (quotations in order to emphasise that gendered pursuits are social constructs, not to attempt to make them appear lesser), or having certain characteristics, yet there still seems to be a subconscious distaste of men who perform/exist in certain spaces or express themselves in certain ways.

First of all, I just want to start by saying that bringing up some of these comments isn't me pointing fingers, trying to shame, blame or bring any such thing upon those who made similar comments or may have insinuated such suggestions. Some have taken this perspective who I have quite a bit of respect for, and hopefully they know who they are and won't see this as an act of disrespect. That isn't my intention. This is just my attempt at having a discussion about what masculinity/maleness means within the spectrum of male identities and transmen, and the idea happened to be sparked by that thread.

Yet, even up to this point with what I’ve said so far and what I’m trying to get at, I hesitate to even limit it to these two groups…if they can even be called two distinct groups to begin with…ok this plan is already failing, lol. Ah well, here goes nothing

One thing I wanted to address was the idea that a man/male/transman’s masculinity or "maleness" is somehow discredited or made less sincere if he traverses the realm of the traditionally male into the realm of the traditionally female. This may mean playing on a women’s team (in the case of those guys who were not born in male bodies and who have yet to start taking T), and more specifically wanting to play on a women’s team while not on T, giving birth prior to being on T, not taking steps to fully transition physically and legally to male while retaining a male/trans identity, stepping into female spaces or having more female friends vs. male/trans friends, enjoying using their female anatomy during sex (something, which I know is a disturbing subject for many of us, myself included, yet I still think we should avoid judging those who do as somehow lesser men/not legitimately trans/maleId), being attracted to/having sex with other masculine or male identities etc.

I guess part of the question is what does it mean to be male/a man/transman to you as a male/man/transman? What do you think it means within society, within the LGBT community and within various generations?

I think its time to challenge some of those meanings and perceptions, because I think they can, are and will be damaging to the present and future of those whose psychological sex is not congruent with biological sex. Being male is just as diverse as being female within the LGBT spectrum, imo, and should be respected as such, not alienated and demonised. I know that for a long time I didn't see this or understand this entirely, and only considered things male/masculine that I considered as such according to my own interests in congruence with my own identity, and according to my own experiences. But having witnessed the diversity within the trans/male id community, I ask why I even care that others aren't like me, consider male/masculine what I don't consider male/masculine, and why a guy gives birth, why a guy doesn't start taking T the minute he admits to himself who he truly is, why a guy has sex with other guys.

The truth is, I don't care, nor judge them, and I realise that all the negative thoughts/beliefs I had regarding guys (and this including biological males who were "feminine") who did these things when I was younger was because I somehow thought that their identity/expression would somehow damage my own worldview on what is male and female, masculine and feminine, and that somehow that would damage my own expression of maleness/masculinity.

Then I sat myself down, so to speak, and thought about why that was, the root of my self-identification as a male, why I had such an intense feeling of being male since as long as I could remember, and how that came together with my own, as well as society’s ideas on what is masculine/feminine. I, for the first time, really (and I mean really, not just a passing, "yeah, yeah I get it whatever" kind of thing that people say just to get others off their backs) understood that my "masculine" interests, expressions, communications, appearance and actions were not the source of that feeling of maleness. These things had nothing to do with being male/a man/whatever. It was just the process of identification that goes on in the brain, that many who are not trans/related id don't seem to fully get. When you picture yourself, think of yourself, you think "he," you have an image of a male. That male could look like anything, he could be doing anything, saying anything, it doesn't matter. That male could be giving birth, that male could be a football player on a men's team or women's team, he could be attracted to other men, he could be a construction worker, he could be the most "macho" or the most "feminine" guy on the planet…it doesn't matter what he does or where he exists, because in his brain his identification is male.

For some reason, when something pertains to the human brain, people think it is less legitimate than what they see in front of them. Yet science comes closer and closer to showing us that there is a reason for this identification of male/female/other, and that reason lies in the brain, which is gendered before a child is even born. So why can't we respect that?

Yet why do we see a transman as less legitimate if he’s given birth? As though somehow his individual expression has a negative impact on the way other transmen are seen? I was watching a youtube video a while back where one guy (biologically female, but identified as a man/male and fully nearly fully "transitioned") in his 20’s was saying that he was upset with the portrayal of the transgender character in the L Word (don't remember the guy's name since I don’t watch the L Word), and more specifically because the writers had the transguy become pregnant. I understand why this would upset many transguys, and the idea of such a thing happening to myself disturbs me greatly. Yet I recognise that it disturbs me because of my own identity…yet what does my identity have to do with the many transguys out there who have had children before they began their transition, or even after their transition?

Why does my masculinity have to rely on the masculinity of others? Why do others think it does? I certainly don't look down on them and don't see why anyone else should view them as lesser men, and don't see them as impacting my own masculinity or legitimacy at all. Why are we so adamant, in a community that claims to support gender fluidity and diversity, that everyone stick to certain so-called biologically natural roles. It seems that it's gender fluidity/diversity only within a certain spectrum…to the point where we even box up what constitutes as acceptable within the realm of fluidity and diversity. Flexibility/diversity only to the extent to which we are comfortable. Yet, to me, challenging these ideas is not about personal comfort, it's about understanding that change sometimes means you have to be painfully uncomfortable for progress to occur.

About a year or more ago, researchers found that they could create sperm out of adult female stem cells and eggs out of adult male stem cells (and viceversa, hence how it would help infertile couples, as well as same sex couples). The primary kink in the plan was that the female sperm would only be able to produce female children, due to the lack of a Y chromosome. Yet it seemed recently they were coming closer to being able to coax chromosomal mutation, from XX to XY. Many cried out that this was "unnatural," that it was "playing god." I disagree, and I don't think that anything humanity or any animal is capable of is "unnatural." If nature provides the tools with which to do it, then it is natural. Is what is "natural" (which is quite literally everything possible) really what is "good"? But what is "good," and according to whom and why?

What happens when male pregnancy is actually attempted and successful? What happens when biological females are able to produce their own sperm? What of transmen like Thomas Beatie? To me, it doesn’t really matter, because the original source of the sense of one's sex/gender is always there in the brain, and is disconnected, imo, from one's actions and crossovers into the realm of the opposite sex/gender.

I guess the main point is this: even if it is not something we would do, or the way we see ourselves, why should we negatively judge those who truly bend the barriers of the binary so many claim to reject? Again, I can't help but feel that it is related to the liberal "push the boundaries, but only push them so far" approach.

Definitely interested in hearing of other guys journeys regarding their own sense of gender/sex in relatation to others etc.

Thoughts?