Some labels do not include trans in the definition

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by adorable

For me. ME ME ME ME.

As a history major, (who did not concentrate in Women's Studies btw) - in fact there maybe people on here who actually lived it - so please let me know if my reading of the history is inadequate...

The 1940s and 1950s were about clearly defined gender roles. The two genders were male and female. It was in the late 1960s and 1970s that some in the women's movement decided that the butch femme dynamic was oppressive and saw Butch - Femme as attempting to mimic hetro life. As time moves forward, so do social norms, societal preferences and technology. All things that we are exposed to in different ways depending on where we live, who raises us and technological accessibility.

These are also those things that make this dynamic hard to define TODAY. In past decades it has clearly been defined, misunderstood, used for good and to seperate.

To me Male IDs, TGs and FTMS DO belong in the most traditional sense of Butch-Femme, in a way that I do not.

I do belong in the newer updated we are "everything" version of butch-femme.

When the Butch-Femme dynamic became popular during the 40s & 50s, I don't think it was analyzed like this - it was a much simpler time with far less technology. Women dressed up like men, held doors, went to work in factories and had their "wife" at home. So did almost every other 1950s household. It was a reflection of society then.

WE (the all inclusive WE) are the reflection of society now.

It was the femme who was much more likely to go to work at the factory (or wherever) than the butch, with the butch staying at home because it was hard for them to find work. I don't believe butches back then saw themselves as men. Perhaps some did, but no from what I read it wasn't male and female as the two gender roles. I am a modern day butch who wears men's clothing. I am not a man.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by BullDog

It was the femme who was much more likely to go to work at the factory (or wherever) than the butch, with the butch staying at home because it was hard for them to find work. I don't believe butches back then saw themselves as men. Perhaps some did, but no from what I read it wasn't male and female as the two gender roles. I am a modern day butch who wears men's clothing. I am not a man.

What I have read is that they worked at factories and other places where there was not a uniform requirement. And that femme's did work moreso in the 50s. I think that it was a gender role that butches did see themselves as - it did mimic hetro society in roles - in a way that we do not today.

Today is a different perspective for me then the 40s and 50s.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by adorable

What I have read is that they worked at factories and other places where there was not a uniform requirement. And that femme's did work moreso in the 50s. I think that it was a gender role that butches did see themselves as - it did mimic hetro society in roles - in a way that we do not today.

Today is a different perspective for me then the 40s and 50s.

Well you could always read Joan Nestle- a femme who was there during the 1950s- for a different perspective.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Well you could always read Joan Nestle- a femme who was there during the 1950s- for a different perspective.

And I will! It is hard to find a lot on it and it does facinate me. Thanks.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by BullDog

It was the femme who was much more likely to go to work at the factory (or wherever)

factories/prostitution and a good butch lover: vocations and love that could support a single mother both financially and psychologically; after 12 hours of hard labor in this society, a man's open arms would be beyond suspect.

just saying.