Some labels do not include trans in the definition

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Jess

Linus, I made an apology to Grant in that thread if you care to read further, explaining my "confusion" as to his gender pronoun preference. Please note that when ever possible and without confusing endings placed on nicknames, etc. I DO try as much as humanly possible to respect a persons choice of pronoun .
Grant refers to himself as trans in his opening statement in that thread had you read it entirely.

I am not trying to be disrespectful. I think for a lot of us, the multitude of preferences in what someone chooses to be called ( especially when it says "boi" here and "boy " there and trans also) is just simply confusing and not altogether an attempt at creating "invisiblity". Not all of us have had the privilege of attending such informative workshops/ support groups and may be less aware than those whom have.

Your post specifically highlighting something I wrote feels like a personal affront and I am very offended and very disappointed that you chose to "read" into it something that wasn't there to volley wanting to start a thread. Perhaps if your own issues weren't already present you would have been able to see the same inconsistencies in how I should have addressed Grant and why it was confusing for me.

Fair enough in Grant using trans in his definition (I did miss it when I read through the thread a few times). And I saw the apology (it took me a while to forge this thread so I think it's a timing thing) you posted after I finished this. I do apologize for not seeing that "trans" in the first post. I can definitely see how that could be confusing.

It's not meant to be an affront but rather a starting point for everyone. It is something that I've seen some men and women go through. I've talked with some who are really upset at being even slightly referenced as trans and I think it is something that is valid to discuss. Even for some trans individuals (myself included) we do this. We get wrapped in the idea that if you are changing the external then you must be trans. And that isn't always a valid way of looking at things.

I appreciate that you weren't trying to be disrespectful. And I recognize that not everyone has been part of the groups I have been, which is why I think it's worthwhile to discuss these things. We had those very discussions in those groups. Do you not think that it would be worthwhile?

And perhaps it is my issue that is at the forefront but I do not believe that it diminishes the importance of having the discussion.

To answer your question for me personally, if someone says they are a man, then they are. If they call themselves "boi" I see them as long ago defined as a female who identifies as a masculine boyish energy. If they call themselves all of the above, then by God, they are all of the above.

What if they don't list it? What if they don't identify specifically? Do you (I mean general you of everyone here at BFP) think "trans" first and then woman/man?

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Linus

Fair enough in Grant using trans in his definition (I did miss it when I read through the thread a few times). And I saw the apology (it took me a while to forge this thread so I think it's a timing thing) you posted after I finished this. I do apologize for not seeing that "trans" in the first post. I can definitely see how that could be confusing.

It's not meant to be an affront but rather a starting point for everyone. It is something that I've seen some men and women go through. I've talked with some who are really upset at being even slightly referenced as trans and I think it is something that is valid to discuss. Even for some trans individuals (myself included) we do this. We get wrapped in the idea that if you are changing the external then you must be trans. And that isn't always a valid way of looking at things.

I appreciate that you weren't trying to be disrespectful. And I recognize that not everyone has been part of the groups I have been, which is why I think it's worthwhile to discuss these things. We had those very discussions in those groups. Do you not think that it would be worthwhile?

And perhaps it is my issue that is at the forefront but I do not believe that it diminishes the importance of having the discussion.

What if they don't list it? What if they don't identify specifically? Do you (I mean general you of everyone here at BFP) think "trans" first and then woman/man?

Linus, thank you sincerely for taking the time to look over what transpired. I very much appreciate it.

I think it is an important topic and actually the above interaction only illustrates how much so.

For myself having been a butch lesbian queer dyke my whole life who has questioned almost daily whether or not I was mis-assigned or am "trans" this has been a very hard issue to wrap my head around.

I have gone through every possible scenario in my head of what it would mean for me to transition and it makes my head seriously want to explode. One on hand, having been "me" and been a part of the dyke community all of my life ( saving early childhood), it would feel like I am no longer a part "of" the hugely dysfunctional but familiar "family" I have always known. For me, it is still difficult to understand where "trans" ends and "man" starts in regard to how I would view myself in the queer community.

I view the men I know who were born in the wrong body and transitioned to the "correct" one, very clearly as MEN. I don't even understand the use of "trans" in descriptor unless it is early stage transitioning OR in the more ethereal sense of "transcendent" , meaning they are biologically one but not seeking to physically alter. "Trans" in this latter sense, meaning androgynous.. or having both aspects or neither. Does that make sense?

When I attempt to place myself in the shoes of the men who have transitioned I am awed, humbled, confused and often pained at what they may have had to endure to reach their decision to just "be".

I think it is very difficult for some of us ( self included) to understand where in the b-f dynamic "men" fit. I think sometimes that is why so many of the "gender" arguments come about. For me, I have always defined b-f as butch and femme females. I guess I naively think that once someone transitions to male, they don't really fit "b-f", because.. well... they are a man... This does not exclude them from the LGBT community, but in my tiny little brain, it just doesn't fit butch-femme. It is a different dynamic. It is man-woman or man-man or what have you. Not many men need to be described as butch, I guess.

I don't know if any of that makes any sense, but please know I am attempting to have an authentic heartfelt discussion about this. I don't know how to make all of the choices or preferences make sense. I am just trying.

Thanks again, it IS indeed a very worthy topic.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Jess

I think it is very difficult for some of us ( self included) to understand where in the b-f dynamic "men" fit. I think sometimes that is why so many of the "gender" arguments come about. For me, I have always defined b-f as butch and femme females. I guess I naively think that once someone transitions to male, they don't really fit "b-f", because.. well... they are a man... This does not exclude them from the LGBT community, but in my tiny little brain, it just doesn't fit butch-femme. It is a different dynamic. It is man-woman or man-man or what have you. Not many men need to be described as butch, I guess.

I don't know if any of that makes any sense, but please know I am attempting to have an authentic heartfelt discussion about this. I don't know how to make all of the choices or preferences make sense. I am just trying.

Thanks again, it IS indeed a very worthy topic.

Jess. Can I ask you something? I am a Femme married to a TransGuy. Should I leave my community now? Or should I only visit here single? Should I come to the Reunion alone? Because I am all Femme. My Beloved is Trans, and Queer and it really hurts (big time) to read the words you have written.

I guess if we operate from the very narrow view of the binary and the existence of only two genders, then you can make your point. Still, what a sad, sad thing to come here and read.

It feels very Michigan Womans Fest to me in the sense of being incredibly exclusionary in an environment I believed was inclusionary.

Where does that leave me Jess?

[Bit]

I think it's important to remember that we each read through the lens of our own experience. What we have lived--our own experience and the experiences of those we love--is going to color what we read and how we respond.

For instance, Wil posted about being a transman who goes to the grocery store and notices that the people around him (mostly straight people, I bet) all seem to take it for granted that their outsides match their insides--so much for granted that they never even think it might not be so for everyone.

adorable read Wil's post about a transman going to the grocery store, but she talked about the transman's experience of being acutely aware that the outsides don't match the inside.

That's two different topics--one is "how others see transmen," and the other is "how transmen see themselves."

Jess posted about not seeing transmen in the community as butches anymore.

Adele read Jess's post and posted about transmen and their partners being excluded from the community.

Again, that's two different topics. One is "transmen are different from butches" and the other is "do transmen fit in this community?"

I think the reason threads like this so often blow up is that people very often think we're all talking about the same exact topic, and don't recognize the different topics as they come up; then we get confused and sometimes hurt and/or angry. It makes it hard to understand each other.

I think, in threads like this, it's more important than ever to remember that none of us are trying to hurt or be disrespectful of anyone. We just aren't always speaking about the exact same topic, yanno?

[BullDog]

Saying you believe that butch and female identities are female identities and wondering where man fits in is not the same thing as saying they shouldn't be welcome. I didn't read Jess' post as saying they shouldn't be welcome.

Very few (I can't think of any but there could be some) transitioned men identify as butch. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be welcome in a butch femme community if they want to be a part of it.

[SuperFemme]

What happens to masculine id'd butches? Those that transition not to male, but out of female and into another gender all together.

Bit? As for me having hurt feelings after reading that *males* don't belong here? I read it exactly as it was written. Please don't negate my feelings again, ok?

I'm trying to make sense of it all, just like Jess.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Bit? As for me having hurt feelings after reading that *males* don't belong here? I read it exactly as it was written. Please don't negate my feelings again, ok?

I didn't negate your feelings, Adele. I stated that you posted about being excluded from the community--and on reading your post again, this sentence, "It feels very Michigan Womans Fest to me in the sense of being incredibly exclusionary in an environment I believed was inclusionary." still says to me that you were posting about transmen and their partners being excluded from the community.

I don't know how you would read my interpreting that you were talking about being excluded from the community as anything other than supportive of your feelings.

It says nothing whatever about you (or your feelings) for me to say that I believe Jess was talking about transmen who have fully transitioned not being butches anymore; I've seldom run into any men who wanted to be referred to as butches once they finish transitioning, so I don't see his statement as disrespectful or exclusionary, especially since he says, "This does not exclude them from the LGBT community..."

If we disagree on what Jess meant by his post, that's fine, but disagreeing about the way to interpret someone else's post is not the same as negating your feelings.

[Queerasfck]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

What happens to masculine id'd butches? Those that transition not to male, but out of female and into another gender all together.

Thanks for bringing this up it's a good point. Sometimes in these gender discussions I feel like I have to pick a side to fit in all the way on the imaginary gender scale some have made.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Jess

1. For myself having been a butch lesbian queer dyke my whole life who has questioned almost daily whether or not I was mis-assigned or am "trans" this has been a very hard issue to wrap my head around.

2. I have gone through every possible scenario in my head of what it would mean for me to transition and it makes my head seriously want to explode. One on hand, having been "me" and been a part of the dyke community all of my life ( saving early childhood), it would feel like I am no longer a part "of" the hugely dysfunctional but familiar "family" I have always known. For me, it is still difficult to understand where "trans" ends and "man" starts in regard to how I would view myself in the queer community.

3. I view the men I know who were born in the wrong body and transitioned to the "correct" one, very clearly as MEN. I don't even understand the use of "trans" in descriptor unless it is early stage transitioning OR in the more ethereal sense of "transcendent" , meaning they are biologically one but not seeking to physically alter. "Trans" in this latter sense, meaning androgynous.. or having both aspects or neither. Does that make sense?

4. I think it is very difficult for some of us ( self included) to understand where in the b-f dynamic "men" fit. I think sometimes that is why so many of the "gender" arguments come about. For me, I have always defined b-f as butch and femme females. I guess I naively think that once someone transitions to male, they don't really fit "b-f", because.. well... they are a man... This does not exclude them from the LGBT community, but in my tiny little brain, it just doesn't fit butch-femme. It is a different dynamic. It is man-woman or man-man or what have you. Not many men need to be described as butch, I guess.

5. I don't know if any of that makes any sense, but please know I am attempting to have an authentic heartfelt discussion about this. I don't know how to make all of the choices or preferences make sense. I am just trying.

I realize you're not coming from a place of being intentionally hurtful. I'm numbering your paragraphs as just an easier way to discuss all the things you've brought up instead of having to break it up into separate quotes.

And while I completely realize your intention is not to be hurtful...I have to say, from my ME place, your words sting...a lot.

Paragraph 1: Your words sting a lot, but it's not just your words. I don't understand why you put bunny ears (quotes) around the word trans.

Paragraph 3. I don't understand the bunny ears around "correct" either. I'm also lost at "biologically one, but not seeking to physically alter". I also don't understand your definition of trans meaning androgynous. If you really see men as men...how are they androgynous or both or neither?

On another note, and this is probably going to sound 'lectury or 'lessony', but it's text and not speech. I don't mean it in a schooly type way. Transwomen and ciswomen share biological traits which transmen and cismen don't share. Same goes for transmen/cismen and transwomen/ciswomen. So, when one says, "biological man/woman", I get confused. Being trans isn't just a head trip. It's also a "biological" thing. There are lots of biological factors that transmen and cismen share (same with transwomen and ciswomen). There is a really good book I can't remember the name of right now that explains all of these biological similarities in great detail. When/If I remember the name of the book, I'll post it.

Lastly on paragraph 3 (and this is going to sound more prickish than intended, but again, it's text and not speech, and if we were having this conversation in person, it wouldn't sound prickish)...you don't get to decide how transfolk use the term 'trans'. Different transpeople use the term differently to mean different things. It's not up to you to decide how it's used. Personally, sometimes, I use it and sometimes I don't. My experiences differ greatly from other transpeople's experiences, and how and why and when I use 'trans' varies from person to person and day to day. Sometimes, it's easier to convey to less informed people, so I use the word trans. Sometimes, my use is dependent upon who's listening. Sometimes, it's dependent on my mood. Sometimes, the wind blows from the south, and I use the word trans as a self-descriptor. The hows/whys/whens of that are up to ME...no one else. If you or anyone else can't grasp that...then just LISTEN. I don't expect you or anyone else to magically 'know' things.

Paragraph 4. While you, personally, may define b-f as female-only...it's not. In fact, tons of gay men are part of the b-f dynamic. Butch is a word used by straight, cis people to define straight, cismen and even straight, ciswomen. It's NOT a term exclusive to queer females. It's just not. While YOUR particular experience with the b-f terms/community *might* be female-only...it's just NOT a female-only community.

Now, here's where I get a bit lost in your post. In paragraph 2 you state you've given Transdom a lot of thought, and you would feel no longer a part of a community you've known your entire life. I get that. Totally one hundred percent get that. I think probably every transguy who's been a part of this community/family has grappled with that.

Backstory: I have been labeled by OTHERS my entire life as 'Lez', 'He/She', 'Dyke', 'Lesbian', 'Female', 'Woman', etc. My Whole Life...literally from the second I slid outta the womb. I didn't pick these terms for myself...they were chosen FOR me.

I came out when I was 14. I went right into the lesbian community, because A) I had been labeled a lesbian, so I figured that's what was going on; and B) there was very little talk of trans-issues in those days. One might see the occasional transwoman who was labeled a 'drag queen' by everyone else, but I definitely NEVER saw any transguys.

That was over 25 years ago. I have been a part of the b-f community and the lesbian community for over 25 years. All of my friends have always been queer with a few exceptions. Straight venues have never been safe for me, so I have not really ever spent much time in straight arenas (sans workplaces, etc). I mean, I don't really even go to shopping malls, because it's just never been safe. I know all of the social cues and little inuendos of queer space. Put me in straight space, and I'm kind of lost. If I'm not lost, I simply refuse to partake. I have no idea how straight-space operates. Queer space, as you put it, is my "dysfunctional yet familiar family" also.

So, please tell me why I have to give that up? Why would anyone have to give that up? My entire life has been devoted to advancing queer (specifically lesbian) rights. I have always stood behind this community. While I have been socialized in many aspects as female, and I've been treated female by everyone around me, and I've definitely 'paid my dues' as an out queer for so many years, I have also been socialized QUEER. So, again, please tell me why I'm expected to then what? just forget about all of that and jump out of my 'dysfunctional yet familiar family' and into a world I've never known? Just because some people have a very LIMITED view of butch-femme? I'm supposed to forget all of that, because YOU view my relationship as 'straight'? Really? Because I don't view my relationship as straight, and neither does Mahhh Woman. And I don't view MYSELF as straight. Mahhh Woman doesn't view herself as straight, and she never has...even when she was married to a cisman.

And here's where I get a little pissy (and again, I completely realize you're coming from a place of trying to understand...but I'm entitled to my pissiness). I have lived my ENTIRE life having someone ELSE determine my place in the world...whether that place was 'female', or 'woman', or 'lesbian', or 'he/she', or <insert birthname here>, or 'daughter', or 'dyke', or whatnot. YOU do NOT get to determine where I belong...how queer I am...whether I'm butch...whether I'm straight...whether I should give up my 'dysfunctional yet familiar family'. I (me, me, me) determine that. NOT you. This particular site is a QUEER site. I'm queer. I'm here. Get used to it. Queer includes trans. Some butches are cismen. Some butches are transmen. Some butches are just men. Some butches are gay men. Some butches are straight cismen. Some butches are straight transmen. Some butches are nelly-ass-flaming third gendered butches. Some butches are male-ID'd. Some butches are ciswomen. Some butches are transwomen. Some femmes are cismen. Some femmes are transmen. Some butches are queer ciswomen. Some butches are straight ciswomen. Some femmes are queer, het, ciswomen. The list is endless.

If you view butch-femme as simply 'lesbian, cisfemale-only', you're not only dissing transfolks, you're also dissing all of those folks who don't ID as either lesbian, cis, male, female, man, queer, or woman...and that's A LOT of people. Some people view their sex and/or gender as simply 'Butch' or 'Femme' with no other explanations.

Sex and sexuality are not the same thing. My sex has nothing to do with my gender either. My sex has nothing to do with a myriad of aspects of my life.

This ain't your grandmother's butch-femme community.

Paragraph 5. I really wish people would get over this "choices" and "preferences" idea. People's sex/genders/sexualities are NOT NOT NOT 'choices and preferences'. It's funny if I were to start dissing Mahhh Woman's life as 'woman' or 'female' as something she 'chooses' or 'prefers', she'd be pretty upset with me. My mother didn't 'choose' her sex any more than I 'chose' my sex. You didn't 'choose' or 'prefer' to be queer anymore than I did. It's diminishing to call your 'life' a preference or choice. I'm sure you get a little riled up when the fundies start calling being queer 'a choice'.

And once again, I completely realize you're coming from a place of trying to understand, and you're not intentionally trying to hurt/oppress anyone. I get that.


Dylan

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Paragraph 3. I don't understand the bunny ears around "correct" either. I'm also lost at "biologically one, but not seeking to physically alter". I also don't understand your definition of trans meaning androgynous. If you really see men as men...how are they androgynous or both or neither?

Hey Dylan, I read that paragraph as making a distinction between transsexual men--whom Jess sees as men--and transgendered-as-in-third-gender butches. Third gender butches don't usually transition, and yet we use the term "trans" for them as well as for guys who transition, because there's so much overlap between the two terms "transgendered" and "transsexual" in the wider transsexual community. To me, that's a very frustrating ambiguity in the language. It seems to trip up all kinds of people, yanno?

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Bit

Hey Dylan, I read that paragraph as making a distinction between transsexual men--whom Jess sees as men--and transgendered-as-in-third-gender butches. Third gender butches don't usually transition, and yet we use the term "trans" for them as well as for guys who transition, because there's so much overlap between the two terms "transgendered" and "transsexual" in the wider transsexual community. To me, that's a very frustrating ambiguity in the language. It seems to trip up all kinds of people, yanno?

Ok I have no idea what you just said but it looks important. Can you elaborate?

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Bit

Hey Dylan, I read that paragraph as making a distinction between transsexual men--whom Jess sees as men--and transgendered-as-in-third-gender butches. Third gender butches don't usually transition, and yet we use the term "trans" for them as well as for guys who transition, because there's so much overlap between the two terms "transgendered" and "transsexual" in the wider transsexual community. To me, that's a very frustrating ambiguity in the language. It seems to trip up all kinds of people, yanno?

Which is why I (personally) DO try to make an effort to distinguish btwn transgendered and transsexed (removing the sexual part all together, because most people tend to meld transsexual into sex and sexuality...which is archaic as far as I'm concerned)

I DO DO DO believe there is a HUGGGGGGEE difference btwn transgendered and transsexed which very very often get all lumped into one category making for an enormously confusing conversation.


Totally Agreed,
Dylan

[Dylan]

I would like to add that this whole monitoring of who is/who isn't 'butch'/'femme' whatnot (i.e. butch-femme is a woman-only club) leads to the monitoring of 'who is/who isn't butch/femme ENOUGH' which drives all of us crazy.

Once we start saying, "Well, SoAndSo isn't *reallllllly* butch/femme, because A, B, C" that leads to "SoAndSo isn't butch/femme *enough*, because of A, B, C"

It leads to hierarchies of butch/femme and definitions of butch/femme by OTHERS instead of individual flavors of butch/femme.

I Hope That Makes As Much Sense Outside Of My Head As It Does Inside My Head,
Dylan

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I would like to add that this whole monitoring of who is/who isn't 'butch'/'femme' whatnot (i.e. butch-femme is a woman-only club) leads to the monitoring of 'who is/who isn't butch/femme ENOUGH' which drives all of us crazy.

Once we start saying, "Well, SoAndSo isn't *reallllllly* butch/femme, because A, B, C" that leads to "SoAndSo isn't butch/femme *enough*, because of A, B, C"

It leads to hierarchies of butch/femme and definitions of butch/femme by OTHERS instead of individual flavors of butch/femme.

I Hope That Makes As Much Sense Outside Of My Head As It Does Inside My Head,
Dylan

This needed to be seen again.

ALSO... To me, this is what it feels like:

I tell someone my name is Jenny and they call me Jennifer, and not just once, but continue to...I realize Jenny is often short for Jennifer, but if I have not told you to call me Jennifer, why would you assume it is OK? (my birth name is JENNY, for the record)

What happened to listening to what someone defines themself as and honor it? What happened to taking someone's preferred label at face value? What happened to respecting this, which is to address and or greet me as I have asked?

If you tell me you are a trans identified man (he/him) and your name is Mike, then I will say..."that guy Mike, he is cool!"

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I realize you're not coming from a place of being intentionally hurtful. I'm numbering your paragraphs as just an easier way to discuss all the things you've brought up instead of having to break it up into separate quotes.

And while I completely realize your intention is not to be hurtful...I have to say, from my ME place, your words sting...a lot.

Paragraph 1: Your words sting a lot, but it's not just your words. I don't understand why you put bunny ears (quotes) around the word trans.

Paragraph 3. I don't understand the bunny ears around "correct" either. I'm also lost at "biologically one, but not seeking to physically alter". I also don't understand your definition of trans meaning androgynous. If you really see men as men...how are they androgynous or both or neither?

On another note, and this is probably going to sound 'lectury or 'lessony', but it's text and not speech. I don't mean it in a schooly type way. Transwomen and ciswomen share biological traits which transmen and cismen don't share. Same goes for transmen/cismen and transwomen/ciswomen. So, when one says, "biological man/woman", I get confused. Being trans isn't just a head trip. It's also a "biological" thing. There are lots of biological factors that transmen and cismen share (same with transwomen and ciswomen). There is a really good book I can't remember the name of right now that explains all of these biological similarities in great detail. When/If I remember the name of the book, I'll post it.

Lastly on paragraph 3 (and this is going to sound more prickish than intended, but again, it's text and not speech, and if we were having this conversation in person, it wouldn't sound prickish)...you don't get to decide how transfolk use the term 'trans'. Different transpeople use the term differently to mean different things. It's not up to you to decide how it's used. Personally, sometimes, I use it and sometimes I don't. My experiences differ greatly from other transpeople's experiences, and how and why and when I use 'trans' varies from person to person and day to day. Sometimes, it's easier to convey to less informed people, so I use the word trans. Sometimes, my use is dependent upon who's listening. Sometimes, it's dependent on my mood. Sometimes, the wind blows from the south, and I use the word trans as a self-descriptor. The hows/whys/whens of that are up to ME...no one else. If you or anyone else can't grasp that...then just LISTEN. I don't expect you or anyone else to magically 'know' things.

Paragraph 4. While you, personally, may define b-f as female-only...it's not. In fact, tons of gay men are part of the b-f dynamic. Butch is a word used by straight, cis people to define straight, cismen and even straight, ciswomen. It's NOT a term exclusive to queer females. It's just not. While YOUR particular experience with the b-f terms/community *might* be female-only...it's just NOT a female-only community.

Now, here's where I get a bit lost in your post. In paragraph 2 you state you've given Transdom a lot of thought, and you would feel no longer a part of a community you've known your entire life. I get that. Totally one hundred percent get that. I think probably every transguy who's been a part of this community/family has grappled with that.

Backstory: I have been labeled by OTHERS my entire life as 'Lez', 'He/She', 'Dyke', 'Lesbian', 'Female', 'Woman', etc. My Whole Life...literally from the second I slid outta the womb. I didn't pick these terms for myself...they were chosen FOR me.

I came out when I was 14. I went right into the lesbian community, because A) I had been labeled a lesbian, so I figured that's what was going on; and B) there was very little talk of trans-issues in those days. One might see the occasional transwoman who was labeled a 'drag queen' by everyone else, but I definitely NEVER saw any transguys.

That was over 25 years ago. I have been a part of the b-f community and the lesbian community for over 25 years. All of my friends have always been queer with a few exceptions. Straight venues have never been safe for me, so I have not really ever spent much time in straight arenas (sans workplaces, etc). I mean, I don't really even go to shopping malls, because it's just never been safe. I know all of the social cues and little inuendos of queer space. Put me in straight space, and I'm kind of lost. If I'm not lost, I simply refuse to partake. I have no idea how straight-space operates. Queer space, as you put it, is my "dysfunctional yet familiar family" also.

So, please tell me why I have to give that up? Why would anyone have to give that up? My entire life has been devoted to advancing queer (specifically lesbian) rights. I have always stood behind this community. While I have been socialized in many aspects as female, and I've been treated female by everyone around me, and I've definitely 'paid my dues' as an out queer for so many years, I have also been socialized QUEER. So, again, please tell me why I'm expected to then what? just forget about all of that and jump out of my 'dysfunctional yet familiar family' and into a world I've never known? Just because some people have a very LIMITED view of butch-femme? I'm supposed to forget all of that, because YOU view my relationship as 'straight'? Really? Because I don't view my relationship as straight, and neither does Mahhh Woman. And I don't view MYSELF as straight. Mahhh Woman doesn't view herself as straight, and she never has...even when she was married to a cisman.

And here's where I get a little pissy (and again, I completely realize you're coming from a place of trying to understand...but I'm entitled to my pissiness). I have lived my ENTIRE life having someone ELSE determine my place in the world...whether that place was 'female', or 'woman', or 'lesbian', or 'he/she', or <insert birthname here>, or 'daughter', or 'dyke', or whatnot. YOU do NOT get to determine where I belong...how queer I am...whether I'm butch...whether I'm straight...whether I should give up my 'dysfunctional yet familiar family'. I (me, me, me) determine that. NOT you. This particular site is a QUEER site. I'm queer. I'm here. Get used to it. Queer includes trans. Some butches are cismen. Some butches are transmen. Some butches are just men. Some butches are gay men. Some butches are straight cismen. Some butches are straight transmen. Some butches are nelly-ass-flaming third gendered butches. Some butches are male-ID'd. Some butches are ciswomen. Some butches are transwomen. Some femmes are cismen. Some femmes are transmen. Some butches are queer ciswomen. Some butches are straight ciswomen. Some femmes are queer, het, ciswomen. The list is endless.

If you view butch-femme as simply 'lesbian, cisfemale-only', you're not only dissing transfolks, you're also dissing all of those folks who don't ID as either lesbian, cis, male, female, man, queer, or woman...and that's A LOT of people. Some people view their sex and/or gender as simply 'Butch' or 'Femme' with no other explanations.

Sex and sexuality are not the same thing. My sex has nothing to do with my gender either. My sex has nothing to do with a myriad of aspects of my life.

This ain't your grandmother's butch-femme community.

Paragraph 5. I really wish people would get over this "choices" and "preferences" idea. People's sex/genders/sexualities are NOT NOT NOT 'choices and preferences'. It's funny if I were to start dissing Mahhh Woman's life as 'woman' or 'female' as something she 'chooses' or 'prefers', she'd be pretty upset with me. My mother didn't 'choose' her sex any more than I 'chose' my sex. You didn't 'choose' or 'prefer' to be queer anymore than I did. It's diminishing to call your 'life' a preference or choice. I'm sure you get a little riled up when the fundies start calling being queer 'a choice'.

And once again, I completely realize you're coming from a place of trying to understand, and you're not intentionally trying to hurt/oppress anyone. I get that.


Dylan

Dylan, just so you know, I read and value what you shared here and do want to get back to this discussion with you ( and anyone else participating respectfully), but as it is a very intimate topic, I want to give myself more time to try to choose my words better.

I really do hate making anyone feel hurt or pissed because I really do feel it myself as well. That is so not what it is about for me and I will trust that you believe that.

Gonna go slap some paint and chair rails on the boys room and marinate over this all.

Thanks, Jess

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I realize you're not coming from a place of being intentionally hurtful. I'm numbering your paragraphs as just an easier way to discuss all the things you've brought up instead of having to break it up into separate quotes.

And while I completely realize your intention is not to be hurtful...I have to say, from my ME place, your words sting...a lot.

Paragraph 1: Your words sting a lot, but it's not just your words. I don't understand why you put bunny ears (quotes) around the word trans.

Paragraph 3. I don't understand the bunny ears around "correct" either. I'm also lost at "biologically one, but not seeking to physically alter". I also don't understand your definition of trans meaning androgynous. If you really see men as men...how are they androgynous or both or neither?

On another note, and this is probably going to sound 'lectury or 'lessony', but it's text and not speech. I don't mean it in a schooly type way. Transwomen and ciswomen share biological traits which transmen and cismen don't share. Same goes for transmen/cismen and transwomen/ciswomen. So, when one says, "biological man/woman", I get confused. Being trans isn't just a head trip. It's also a "biological" thing. There are lots of biological factors that transmen and cismen share (same with transwomen and ciswomen). There is a really good book I can't remember the name of right now that explains all of these biological similarities in great detail. When/If I remember the name of the book, I'll post it.

Lastly on paragraph 3 (and this is going to sound more prickish than intended, but again, it's text and not speech, and if we were having this conversation in person, it wouldn't sound prickish)...you don't get to decide how transfolk use the term 'trans'. Different transpeople use the term differently to mean different things. It's not up to you to decide how it's used. Personally, sometimes, I use it and sometimes I don't. My experiences differ greatly from other transpeople's experiences, and how and why and when I use 'trans' varies from person to person and day to day. Sometimes, it's easier to convey to less informed people, so I use the word trans. Sometimes, my use is dependent upon who's listening. Sometimes, it's dependent on my mood. Sometimes, the wind blows from the south, and I use the word trans as a self-descriptor. The hows/whys/whens of that are up to ME...no one else. If you or anyone else can't grasp that...then just LISTEN. I don't expect you or anyone else to magically 'know' things.

Paragraph 4. While you, personally, may define b-f as female-only...it's not. In fact, tons of gay men are part of the b-f dynamic. Butch is a word used by straight, cis people to define straight, cismen and even straight, ciswomen. It's NOT a term exclusive to queer females. It's just not. While YOUR particular experience with the b-f terms/community *might* be female-only...it's just NOT a female-only community.

Now, here's where I get a bit lost in your post. In paragraph 2 you state you've given Transdom a lot of thought, and you would feel no longer a part of a community you've known your entire life. I get that. Totally one hundred percent get that. I think probably every transguy who's been a part of this community/family has grappled with that.

Backstory: I have been labeled by OTHERS my entire life as 'Lez', 'He/She', 'Dyke', 'Lesbian', 'Female', 'Woman', etc. My Whole Life...literally from the second I slid outta the womb. I didn't pick these terms for myself...they were chosen FOR me.

I came out when I was 14. I went right into the lesbian community, because A) I had been labeled a lesbian, so I figured that's what was going on; and B) there was very little talk of trans-issues in those days. One might see the occasional transwoman who was labeled a 'drag queen' by everyone else, but I definitely NEVER saw any transguys.

That was over 25 years ago. I have been a part of the b-f community and the lesbian community for over 25 years. All of my friends have always been queer with a few exceptions. Straight venues have never been safe for me, so I have not really ever spent much time in straight arenas (sans workplaces, etc). I mean, I don't really even go to shopping malls, because it's just never been safe. I know all of the social cues and little inuendos of queer space. Put me in straight space, and I'm kind of lost. If I'm not lost, I simply refuse to partake. I have no idea how straight-space operates. Queer space, as you put it, is my "dysfunctional yet familiar family" also.

So, please tell me why I have to give that up? Why would anyone have to give that up? My entire life has been devoted to advancing queer (specifically lesbian) rights. I have always stood behind this community. While I have been socialized in many aspects as female, and I've been treated female by everyone around me, and I've definitely 'paid my dues' as an out queer for so many years, I have also been socialized QUEER. So, again, please tell me why I'm expected to then what? just forget about all of that and jump out of my 'dysfunctional yet familiar family' and into a world I've never known? Just because some people have a very LIMITED view of butch-femme? I'm supposed to forget all of that, because YOU view my relationship as 'straight'? Really? Because I don't view my relationship as straight, and neither does Mahhh Woman. And I don't view MYSELF as straight. Mahhh Woman doesn't view herself as straight, and she never has...even when she was married to a cisman.

And here's where I get a little pissy (and again, I completely realize you're coming from a place of trying to understand...but I'm entitled to my pissiness). I have lived my ENTIRE life having someone ELSE determine my place in the world...whether that place was 'female', or 'woman', or 'lesbian', or 'he/she', or <insert birthname here>, or 'daughter', or 'dyke', or whatnot. YOU do NOT get to determine where I belong...how queer I am...whether I'm butch...whether I'm straight...whether I should give up my 'dysfunctional yet familiar family'. I (me, me, me) determine that. NOT you. This particular site is a QUEER site. I'm queer. I'm here. Get used to it. Queer includes trans. Some butches are cismen. Some butches are transmen. Some butches are just men. Some butches are gay men. Some butches are straight cismen. Some butches are straight transmen. Some butches are nelly-ass-flaming third gendered butches. Some butches are male-ID'd. Some butches are ciswomen. Some butches are transwomen. Some femmes are cismen. Some femmes are transmen. Some butches are queer ciswomen. Some butches are straight ciswomen. Some femmes are queer, het, ciswomen. The list is endless.

If you view butch-femme as simply 'lesbian, cisfemale-only', you're not only dissing transfolks, you're also dissing all of those folks who don't ID as either lesbian, cis, male, female, man, queer, or woman...and that's A LOT of people. Some people view their sex and/or gender as simply 'Butch' or 'Femme' with no other explanations.

Sex and sexuality are not the same thing. My sex has nothing to do with my gender either. My sex has nothing to do with a myriad of aspects of my life.

This ain't your grandmother's butch-femme community.

Paragraph 5. I really wish people would get over this "choices" and "preferences" idea. People's sex/genders/sexualities are NOT NOT NOT 'choices and preferences'. It's funny if I were to start dissing Mahhh Woman's life as 'woman' or 'female' as something she 'chooses' or 'prefers', she'd be pretty upset with me. My mother didn't 'choose' her sex any more than I 'chose' my sex. You didn't 'choose' or 'prefer' to be queer anymore than I did. It's diminishing to call your 'life' a preference or choice. I'm sure you get a little riled up when the fundies start calling being queer 'a choice'.

And once again, I completely realize you're coming from a place of trying to understand, and you're not intentionally trying to hurt/oppress anyone. I get that.


Dylan

Butch is a word with many meanings, many incarnations. But I vehemently disagee that in the context of BFP.com (or this conversation) a straight natal male who is butch appearing is connected to this community. Nor do I see a bunch of gay (born) male butch - femme men wanting to hang around here. And that butch straight cis-gendered butch looking women down the street might take offense to being lumped in with our butch femme dynamic.

It's seems really distasteful to me to try to stretch butch out beyond recognition, downgrade butch identity here to having such generic blahzay definition.

You know, I don't know if you identify as butch anymore, nor do I care, but I do... and it the context of this community it has meaning, very specific history and we have more connection to each other and more value in all of that than to bust it to almost nothing.

Just think that's especially crazy in a thread that's about not defining others and respecting identities.

*not some straight butch looking lady down the street*
Metropolis

[BullDog]

Here's One Look At 1950s Butch Femme culture.

http://www.mariecartier.com/content/BF.pdf

There's nothing here to indicate any of these people took on traditional male and female roles- in fact quite the opposite. This is a history of women- yes I said women. Women who laid their lives and bodies on the line. As apretty said, many femmes back then had to work as prostitutes to support themselves, their lovers and families. Butch women were repeatedly raped by cops for being butch but refused to go into hiding and looked their rapist straight in the face.

These were working class people. Upper class people could have private parties in their homes. Working class people met in public places like bars and faced the wrath of the cops.

This is part of my history. I'm not going to take the woman part out. I am happy to hear trans and other perspective as well, but I am not going to take the woman out of butch femme history.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Here's One Look At 1950s Butch Femme culture.

http://www.mariecartier.com/content/BF.pdf

There's nothing here to indicate any of these people took on traditional male and female roles- in fact quite the opposite. This is a history of women- yes I said women. Women who laid their lives and bodies on the line. As apretty said, many femmes back then had to work as prostitutes to support themselves, their lovers and families. Butch women were repeatedly raped by cops for being butch but refused to go into hiding and looked their rapist straight in the face.

These were working class people. Upper class people could have private parties in their homes. Working class people met in public places like bars and faced the wrath of the cops.

This is part of my history. I'm not going to take the woman part out. I am happy to hear trans and other perspective as well, but I am not going to take the woman out of butch femme history.

I see your point, and I appreciate your wanting to protect your history

However, not every butch...even back then...identified with 'being a woman'.

To deny that there were transmen involved in that history is to deny trans history and look at butch-femme culture from a very myopic cis perspective

Many many many transpeople (both mtfs and ftms) have been involved in b-f history from the beginning


Dylan

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I see your point, and I appreciate your wanting to protect your history

However, not every butch...even back then...identified with 'being a woman'.

To deny that there were transmen involved in that history is to deny trans history and look at butch-femme culture from a very myopic cis perspective

Many many many transpeople (both mtfs and ftms) have been involved in b-f history from the beginning


Dylan

I'm not denying anything. Go ahead and share other perspectives. I've read many studies similar to the one I just shared which involved interviewing hundreds of butches and femmes that actually lived through that time period. They share very similar stories from their own voices and perspectives.

Edit: The butches and femmes from the study I cited lived as women, they were treated as women- including having to struggle with having to find jobs (both femmes and butches) because they were women, being beaten and raped, etc because they were women. Please do not dilute this into an "identity" debate. These were real people with real lives. The fact that they were female and women had everything to do with how they walked through this world and what struggles they faced and how they were treated and how they found community and how they lived and how they loved.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Jess

I think it is very difficult for some of us ( self included) to understand where in the b-f dynamic "men" fit. I think sometimes that is why so many of the "gender" arguments come about. For me, I have always defined b-f as butch and femme females. I guess I naively think that once someone transitions to male, they don't really fit "b-f", because.. well... they are a man... This does not exclude them from the LGBT community, but in my tiny little brain, it just doesn't fit butch-femme. It is a different dynamic. It is man-woman or man-man or what have you. Not many men need to be described as butch, I guess.

I don't know if any of that makes any sense, but please know I am attempting to have an authentic heartfelt discussion about this. I don't know how to make all of the choices or preferences make sense. I am just trying.

Thanks again, it IS indeed a very worthy topic.

I am kind of understanding Jess here...I think.

We, as a society, like to give things names or labels. It might be a byproduct of advertising techniques or maybe just indicates we are too lazy to use extra words.

The non-hetero community in all it facets is a very complicated place, getting more and more complicated as new definitions are added. And the womens community has always seemed to welcome more and more variations cuz we like to be inclusive rather than exclusive it seems.

I, too, am confused as to how this works and struggling to find the words to use which wont offend someone. Then again, sometimes just "hello" can be offensive

The Butch-Femme community as far as I know from history was to celebrate the special connection between feminine female energy and masculine female energy into specific dynamic between women who wanted to be with other women.

In the broader arena, the Butch-Femme community is the logical place for non female identifying folks to be. The energy exchange and dynamics are already in place, accepted, and understood. Someone identifying as a non female would have a heck of a time in a general "lesbian" arena.

On the other hand, I personally, am offended when a non female uses the word Butch. Butch, to me, is a noun not an adjective.

Plus, I have fought for many years not to be seen as a woman who wants to be a male just because I am Butch. And, I worry that Butch as a distinct identity is being undermined and redefined to accomodate non females. And, the accomodation has me back at square one having to reiterate....no, I dont want to be a male.

This is a very complicated issue on many levels. Some trans folks can pass for males without a problem and blend into the general population. So can most femmes. It is the Butch who has to straddle several worlds and be subjected to much speculation and much misunderstanding.

We are more likely to understand the difficulties involved in being seen as something you are not. Hence, this aspect of the subculture is a bridge of sorts.

Yet, Butch-Femme, per se has historically been a subculture in the lesbian world. If it incorporates non females is it still lesbian? And are former lesbians now involved with non females lesbians or heteros?

Before anyone jumps all over me, like Jess, I am struggling to understand something and raising, hopefully, appropriate questions in an accepting arena.
One can respect something even if they dont understand it.

As a closing note, sometimes people make things too complex and become stuck. I like to think when this happens, the Power that is, finds ways to nudge us along onto a different but growth filled path.