A request

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Andrew, Jr.

Oh DapperButch,

I am so very sorry. Please accept my appology. It is the thread you are talking about in your post that I did start a day or so ago and used the wording "women" in the trans zone. I meant no harm. Honest.

I will ask Linus to fix it if he can.

Again, my apology to you.

Namaste,
Andrew

No, Andrew. I was not speaking to your post/thread at all.

I am referring to when butches (especially if designated as female id'd butches) are automatically viewed as identifying as women.

As a side note, I was actually wondering if this post should be placed in the gender, identities, and labels forum? Linus?

Thanks.

(side note to Andrew: if you were referring to femmes specifically in that thread...it may be best for you to say that ... otherwise the word women may be construed as meaning both femmes and women identified butches. Just trying to be helpful, here)

[BullDog]

Dapper, since I am a butch woman who is outspoken, I will answer your post directly. First of all, when I am speaking about butch women that is who I am speaking about. I don't generalize to all butches. Most butches I know are women. The only place I have ever heard the phrase female-identified is online. If that is someone's identity I respect that. If you are not a butch woman then I'm not talking about you.

I wonder why your heart hurts from this. If you are not a woman you are not a woman.

As to separating out female and woman, I see male/man used interchangeably a lot more than I see female/woman used interchangeably and it confuses me a lot. I don't know what the term male-identified butch means. To me male is biological sex not gender.

As far as it being nice having female and woman separated, I'm glad it was nice for you. Having women erased is not nice to me and that's what I see a lot of. Like it's the most demeaning thing in the world to be a woman. People are apologizing for using the word woman. You will never hear me apologize for using the word woman. I think woman needs to be talked about more and given more visibility in online butch femme communities, not less.

[JustBeingMe]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Dapper, since I am a butch woman who is outspoken, I will answer your post directly. First of all, when I am speaking about butch women that is who I am speaking about. I don't generalize to all butches. Most butches I know are women. The only place I have ever heard the phrase female-identified is online. If that is someone's identity I respect that. If you are not a butch woman then I'm not talking about you.

I wonder why your heart hurts from this. If you are not a woman you are not a woman.

As to separating out female and woman, I see male/man used interchangeably a lot more than I see female/woman used interchangeably and it confuses me a lot. I don't know what the term male-identified butch means. To me male is biological sex not gender.

As far as it being nice having female and woman separated, I'm glad it was nice for you. Having women erased is not nice to me and that's what I see a lot of. Like it's the most demeaning thing in the world to be a woman. People are apologizing for using the word woman. You will never hear me apologize for using the word woman. I think woman needs to be talked about more and given more visibility in online butch femme communities, not less.

Bulldog, I am right there with you. I am tired of people trying to erase butch women. I for one Identify as Butch Woman/Lesbian and Online It seems I have to be even more specific as to saying I am female Identified, as oposed to just being a lesbian butch woman, like it used to be in the older days of coming out for me. I do know not all butches Identify with being a lesbian, and not all butches ID as female or woman. I know for some it's a huge difference to ID as woman but not female, which even confuses me a tad bit. All the lingo has changed so much sometimes I can't even keep up with it. Maybe I can get you to pm me sometime to explain this lingo to me. the difference between female and woman thing online that is. I do commend you for ALWAYS stepping up to the plate about invisibility issues. Thanks.

[TenderKnight]

Hiya Dapper,

I can understand where you are coming from.. I've been on various butch/femme sites on and off again for about 10 years now and have seen a LOT of orbiting from one extreme to another.. In the late 90's, I had no idea what butch was, or femme, much less trans. When I came out, I came out as a lesbian, then as butch, then as TG butch, and now as trans.. Through all of that, I have seen a LOT of debates about pronouns, ID's, labels.. I don't know, maybe it is just a case of critical mass, there gets to be so much frustration within any ID'ing group that it kinda spills over.. Then people become PC and try to let that group know that, "hey, we get you.."

Maybe that is where we are now? Trans and TG and male identified has become the "buzz" word in the last couple of years.. Great for me, personally, being that I am a transgender person, but not so great for those that have had to take a back seat, at times, to the buzz word.. I get that you may feel that your personal ID and way of living and being is being ignored and maybe even becoming invisable..

I do get it.. I have no answers, but I will try to be respectful in my posts and my interactions with others on this site and in the "Real World". Thank you for the thread and the heads up.

In Light,
Tony

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Dapper, since I am a butch woman who is outspoken, I will answer your post directly. First of all, when I am speaking about butch women that is who I am speaking about. I don't generalize to all butches. Most butches I know are women. The only place I have ever heard the phrase female-identified is online. If that is someone's identity I respect that. If you are not a butch woman then I'm not talking about you.

I wonder why your heart hurts from this. If you are not a woman you are not a woman.

As to separating out female and woman, I see male/man used interchangeably a lot more than I see female/woman used interchangeably and it confuses me a lot. I don't know what the term male-identified butch means. To me male is biological sex not gender.

As far as it being nice having female and woman separated, I'm glad it was nice for you. Having women erased is not nice to me and that's what I see a lot of. Like it's the most demeaning thing in the world to be a woman. People are apologizing for using the word woman. You will never hear me apologize for using the word woman. I think woman needs to be talked about more and given more visibility in online butch femme communities, not less.

Hi, BullDog.

What I am asking is that one does not assume that if one's sex is female, than one's gender is woman.

That is all.

You yourself have said recently that you see sex and gender as separate things, so I guess I don't understand why you are saying that it doesn't make sense to you to separate sex from gender in this case (the case of women/female).

I am well aware that when you speak about butch women you are speaking about butch women only. I am also well aware that you do not view all butches as women.

This has nothing to do with erasing women.

Thanks.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Hi, BullDog.

What I am asking is that one does not assume that if one's sex is female, than one's gender is woman.

That is all.

You yourself have said recently that you see sex and gender as separate things, so I guess I don't understand why you are saying that it doesn't make sense to you to separate sex from gender in this case (the case of women/female).

I am well aware that when you speak about butch women you are speaking about butch women only. I am also well aware that you do not view all butches as women.

This has nothing to do with erasing women.

Thanks.

I never said it doesn't make sense to me to separate sex from gender in the case of women/female.

Your request seemed to be aimed at outspoken butch woman and things we are saying. As one of them, I am not clear on what your request is.

I repeat, I think there needs to be more- much more- discussion and visibility of women in online butch femme circles, not less- particularly when it pertains to butches (since there are so many misconceptions) but to femmes (since being women contributes to their invisibility within queer circles, even butch femme circles) as well.

[Kobi]

Interesting discussion. As a woman who entered the community shortly after the last supper, much has changed. We didnt distinguish between sex and gender back then. We were concerned with being seen as women period.

All these different id's are difficult and complicated and confusing. And, it is not something I deal with in my everyday life. So, when here, it is kind of frustrating to try to remember who is who and who prefers what. Sometimes, for me, being here is like being in a foreign country, with a foreign language and foreign customs.

[Bohemian Rhapsody]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Interesting discussion. As a woman who entered the community shortly after the last supper, much has changed. We didnt distinguish between sex and gender back then. We were concerned with being seen as women period.

All these different id's are difficult and complicated and confusing. And, it is not something I deal with in my everyday life. So, when here, it is kind of frustrating to try to remember who is who and who prefers what. Sometimes, for me, being here is like being in a foreign country, with a foreign language and foreign customs.

That is exactly how I feel about the labeling that goes on in the LGBT community. Why do we have to pigeon hole ourselves into a certain group anyway? It certainly isnt easy for me to put myself in any one catergory and I certainly dont want someone doing that for me.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I never said it doesn't make sense to me to separate sex from gender in the case of women/female.

Your request seemed to be aimed at outspoken butch woman and things we are saying. As one of them, I am not clear on what your request is.

I repeat, I think there needs to be more- much more- discussion and visibility of women in online butch femme circles, not less- particularly when it pertains to butches (since there are so many misconceptions) but to femmes (since being women contributes to their invisibility within queer circles, even butch femme circles) as well.

Hi, BullDog. I can see how my post may have appeared to be directed towards butch women. It was directed towards everyone for their thoughts.

I agree that the visibility of butches who identify as women is important and would also say that the visibility of butch women is not something that was supported in the past.

P.S. Sorry this is so delayed...I am at work and my computer is being funky!

[BullDog]

Dapper, I think I understand a little bit more of what you were saying based on your response to Nat.

I have discussed with other butches in discussions both here and the former site about female identified butch. To me that is phrase that is used online, but for me personally doesn't hold a lot of meaning. I don't tend to use it much anymore. It also seems to be used as the counterpart to male identified butch and this so-called war we are all engaged in.

I also don't think that saying female/woman identified butch is very meaningful either. There are lots of butches who say yes I am female but don't see themselves as female identified or butch woman. Some butches say butch with no qualifiers is their gender, others say third gender, other gender, pan gender and still see themselves as female. The list goes on.

p.s. Heart I would love to see your thread on Woman.

[Kobi]

Yes, I'd love to see a woman thread! I'd also like to see a lesbian thread.....or is that not politically correct these days?

[AtLast]

I have to ask something. This is not about Dapper's request being denied at all in terms of hys personal desires. It is important to recognize how someone else defines their gender and self. Since joining a B-F site (not even 3 years ago), I have been amazed at the general degradation of the term woman. As applied to butches or femmes. I have felt both anger and puzzlement over this.

Frankly, I don't believe this has a thing to do with or is about gender identification, but everything to do with this community mirroring the prevailing (and ages long) view of women as less than men and that the only purpose a woman can possibly have is that which serves men. (And no, this is not any kind of a dig concerning BDSM service, which is something quite different) that I have no problem with).

Among every vein of butch identity I see this and often the same caddy interactions among femmes reflecting relationships among women in US society at large. The competitiveness, the put downs. The distrust- all based upon the same old sexist stereotypes.

I just don't see our ever transcending gender divisions until, or unless we stop our own oppressive attitudes towards women. I didn’t want this kind of attitudinal framework as a heterosexual, a bi-sexual, or a garden-variety lesbian. Nor do I want it as a queer lesbian butch woman! And I sure as hell don’t want the same things I lived with as a young woman for my grand daughters, no matter how they choose to identify in terms of sexuality or gender.

Woman is not a dirty word and it is not the problem between and among us all. Sexism and the continuation of male as superior is.

And no, not all TG men are sexist, in fact, most I know are strong feminists. Also, there exist misogynist FIBs as well as MIBs along with every other identification in between as well and misogynist femmes of every identification.


Sometimes, I just wish we would get our heads out of the sand and take on the issues that hurt us outside of our little web-world (like sexism). Issues around gender are extremely significant in doing so. But our butch-wars are not! My personal rendering of butch is no more important or significant than any other person's on this site. Can't we work with one another?

I know…. The soap box….

[BullDog]

Amen AtLast! Woman is not a dirty word.

I think what is causing the recent consternation (and it isn't just one particular person judging by the responses and thanks) is butch women speaking up and people are uncomfortable seeing butch and woman in the same sentence without a bunch of qualifiers a few times and then needing to say, no, no, not me. Really? I don't know why people would worry about what they are not instead of what they are.

On a related note, every time someone mentions the word lesbian I just set my egg timer and just wait for people to come racing in to announce "I am not a lesbian." Lesbian isn't a dirty word either.

I use butch and woman together a lot, not just because that is how I id but because the way butch women are treated is a symptom of a larger problem- sexism and misogyny. And yes there are feminist transmen and male identified butches. They are not bothered by butch women speaking up. It doesn't threaten them in the slightest.

[adorable]

I think that if people stuck to speaking for themselves it would be fantastic.
What annoys me is that some people tend to want to speak for me too which I see as a tad misogynistic on their parts. Collectively no one should get to speak for ME as a BUTCH, as a WOMAN or as a FEMINIST. I have a say, I am here too. Your version is not the only version. Your way is not the ONLY way. So the collective "I have it all figured out and you don't sweetie" crowd should speak for themselves and let me speak for ME. No one holds the patent on what a butch woman is for the rest of the world or how all butch women feel or what every butch woman experiences.

I am tired of too of this sense that there is some sort of war going on between male and female IDs. Male IDs are NOT about sexism. It is NOT about superiority in butchiness. It IS about how people are born and how they FEEL inside.

[rlin]

I find this subject very interesting, of course. It hits really close to home for me.

I havent been around this online community, that has been busy being built into what it is, for many years. When I started coming to these sites I started figuring out what kind of labels I would use to describe myself, especially since that is one of the very first things it was demanded that I do. I gotta tell you that it took me a few days to register the first time; I didnt have any idea what i identified as, I just knew that some things I definitely had an aversion to saying about myself.

When reading here I admit to still being confused about gender and sex and what is PC. I am butch. I am a big manly butch woman. I take pride in being a woman. I dont want to be a man. I almost choke when i have to fill out a form and say that I am female. I don't feel female.

As I am reading, I realize that the way I think of butch is opposite to what I see is others definition of butch.
To me my gender is a woman. My sex is a butch. I am a butch woman, not a female woman.

OK.

I said all of the above to show that with best intentions and with everything that I feel is right I may inadvertently say the wrong thing to someone - May? Hell, I have, surely.

This to me is as simple as the live and let live philosophy that we should all adhere to. A newbie in the midst may say all kind of things that they have never considered and have never been exposed to. These folks should be educated about the fact that some of the members are touchy about things and feel strongly about pronouns. That said, we can all tell by now, thru the reading of many posts and statements, whether someone is trying to hurt or is just saying their truths. Some of us just dont have the time or the brain function to take notes or remember exactly who wants what.

I, personally, had to smile when i read the OPs statement. I tend to be overwhelmed by how much male/man is celebrated in a site that is named after something that is traditionally a lesbian group.

We each live. We each learn. We each fuck-up, often, thats why we learn.
I wish for the benefit of the doubt.
I dont want to say that we should all do any one thing. I dont want to suggest that we all shouldnt have to put the disclaimers in each post.
I do wish we would all just live and let live.

And. in closing, let me add the disclaimer that i know i didnt say this as eloquently and as directly as i envisioned in my head, that means i probably stepped on some toes in my attempt to tread lightly on an issue that is sensitive to many. I apologize in advance for anything hurtful or insensitive that i may have said while describing my take on this matter.
hmmm...
I think that covers it.

Sincerely,
rlin

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by adorable

I think that if people stuck to speaking for themselves it would be fantastic.
What annoys me is that some people tend to want to speak for me too which I see as a tad misogynistic on their parts. Collectively no one should get to speak for ME as a BUTCH, as a WOMAN or as a FEMINIST. I have a say, I am here too. Your version is not the only version. Your way is not the ONLY way. So the collective "I have it all figured out and you don't sweetie" crowd should speak for themselves and let me speak for ME. No one holds the patent on what a butch woman is for the rest of the world or how all butch women feel or what every butch woman experiences.

I am tired of too of this sense that there is some sort of war going on between male and female IDs. Male IDs are NOT about sexism. It is NOT about superiority in butchiness. It IS about how people are born and how they FEEL inside.

Well the more people who speak up about butch women, women and feminism the better. Different perspectives are good.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by BullDog

On a related note, every time someone mentions the word lesbian I just set my egg timer and just wait for people to come racing in to announce "I am not a lesbian." Lesbian isn't a dirty word either.

Damn, if that isn't the truth. Not excusing anything, but it's so much better than it used to be when people made fun of lesbians. There were THREADS on the dash site devoted to it when i first joined, and it was not an infrequent exchange on chat.

i used to report on the threads and complain to the chat monitor on chat. Nothing. Nothing for a long time. Until there was a mini-insurrection (i know that is overstating it) in the threads, thanks to Heart and a few others. People finally started realizing there were quite a few lesbians on the site who really did not enjoy being demeaned.

It SO felt like a reluctant administration finally having to deal with something they didn't want to. It's so ironic that the owner of that site is now in business with lesbian enterprises like Olivia. It's just ironic to me.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Martina

Damn, if that isn't the truth. Not excusing anything, but it's so much better than it used to be when people made fun of lesbians. There were THREADS on the dash site devoted to it when i first joined, and it was not an infrequent exchange on chat.

i used to report on the threads and complain to the chat monitor on chat. Nothing. Nothing for a long time. Until there was a mini-insurrection (i know that is overstating it) in the threads, thanks to Heart and a few others. People finally started realizing there were quite a few lesbians on the site who really did not enjoy being demeaned.

It SO felt like a reluctant administration finally having to deal with something they didn't want to. It's so ironic that the owner of that site is now in business with lesbian enterprises like Olivia. It's just ironic to me.

Isn't this the truth! NEWS FLASH - Not all lesbians are anti- B-F, queer, Trans/Ig, and it is not the 1970's any longer!! I'm a lesbian and a butch! Also, coalition building across diverse communities helps banish stereotypes and transmits education about our community that is much needed. Isolationism simply floats a larger leper island, so to speak.

I understand (and have experienced) some of the crap that some lesbians spew about the B-F community. However, just as we as individuals fall into every form of unique here, so do lesbians.

I don't choose to be a victim of negative transgressions, or even a survivor. I want to be an advocate and an educator.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I have to ask something. This is not about Dapper's request being denied at all in terms of hys personal desires. It is important to recognize how someone else defines their gender and self. Since joining a B-F site (not even 3 years ago), I have been amazed at the general degradation of the term woman. As applied to butches or femmes. I have felt both anger and puzzlement over this.

Frankly, I don't believe this has a thing to do with or is about gender identification, but everything to do with this community mirroring the prevailing (and ages long) view of women as less than men and that the only purpose a woman can possibly have is that which serves men. (And no, this is not any kind of a dig concerning BDSM service, which is something quite different) that I have no problem with).

Among every vein of butch identity I see this and often the same caddy interactions among femmes reflecting relationships among women in US society at large. The competitiveness, the put downs. The distrust- all based upon the same old sexist stereotypes.

I just don't see our ever transcending gender divisions until, or unless we stop our own oppressive attitudes towards women. I didn’t want this kind of attitudinal framework as a heterosexual, a bi-sexual, or a garden-variety lesbian. Nor do I want it as a queer lesbian butch woman! And I sure as hell don’t want the same things I lived with as a young woman for my grand daughters, no matter how they choose to identify in terms of sexuality or gender.

Woman is not a dirty word and it is not the problem between and among us all. Sexism and the continuation of male as superior is.

And no, not all TG men are sexist, in fact, most I know are strong feminists. Also, there exist misogynist FIBs as well as MIBs along with every other identification in between as well and misogynist femmes of every identification.


Sometimes, I just wish we would get our heads out of the sand and take on the issues that hurt us outside of our little web-world (like sexism). Issues around gender are extremely significant in doing so. But our butch-wars are not! My personal rendering of butch is no more important or significant than any other person's on this site. Can't we work with one another?

I know…. The soap box….

Sometimes I think it is difficult to understand where someone is coming from when they say sexism and misogyny is alive and thriving in the alternative lifestyle community.

Perhaps some examples will prove helpful in this respect.

First, I have seen threads getting, what appears to be out of hand, with female/women folk being backed into corners by both non-female/women and femme women who dont like their views and opinions about whatever the topic may be. This attacking behavior will be allowed to continue until such time as the female/woman starts fighting back using the same tactics. Then, I see a moderator step in and warn ONLY the female/woman. There is no warning given to others. There is no general, this type of behavior is not acceptable, everybody knock it off. That, to me is sexist and misogynistic.

The only people I have seen directly confront non-female/women is other non-female/women. Then the behavior seems to cease and order is restored.

I have seen femmes, especially those in relationships with non-female/women, come rushing to the defense of non female/women in a discussion. It feels like females/women are expected to hold their own but non-female/women are unable to do so?

I have had females/women/butches/lesbians agree with some of my more controversal views and outspokenness in private. Yet in public, they are reluctant to do so. It feels like sometimes folks feel they are have to behave like they are walking on eggshells when all they are doing is standing up for their femaleness/womanness/butchness/lesbianism.

I have felt I am being told I am a second class citizen when I have stood up for my female/woman/butch/lesbian identity. It is as tho I am supposed to downplay it in order for someone who identifies differently not to feel excluded.

I have seen butch women present an idea that will have femme women picking at their bones. But, if the same idea is presented by a non-female/woman....it is open for discussion and elaboration.

I have seen non-female/women refer to women as chicks. Excuse me?

I find this behavior odd and disturbing and dismissive and sexist and misogynistic and homophobic.