A request

[DapperButch]

During the 12+ years that I have been a part of the online b/f community, there has always been an acknowledgment that not all female identified butches define as women. Posts have always reflected this awareness.

In the threads that I have been reading over the last several months (including the current ones in the trans zone), on this site, it seems as though the words, at times, are starting to be used interchangeably (female and woman), or we, at least are maybe moving towards that.

Although I am a TG Butch (I do not identify as a "female identified butch", or a "male identified butch"), I am still "butch" and it hurts my heart a little (which is simply WEIRD in and of it itself, lol), when I see this happening. It was nice to be a part of a community that separated out one's sex (female), from one's gender (woman).

I think (my theory) that the reason this is occuring is b/c several of our more verbal female id'd butches on this site define as both female and women, so the term "butch women" seems to be used a lot (as a natural form of expression for them). It seems as though when the site first started, care was taken to separate out female from women as it was at the other popular b/f sites, but that kind of slid away here.

I am writing this post as a reminder that many butches do not define as women and to request those peeps who are open to respecting this, try to reflect this in the wording of their posts.

(I hope that this post is read in the earnest, sincere, and genuine way in which it was written..and not in a "sense of entitlement" sort of way. I do not think that I am the only one who is concerned about this issue).

Thanks.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Oh DapperButch,

I am so very sorry. Please accept my appology. It is the thread you are talking about in your post that I did start a day or so ago and used the wording "women" in the trans zone. I meant no harm. Honest.

I will ask Linus to fix it if he can.

Again, my apology to you.

Namaste,
Andrew

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Andrew, Jr.

Oh DapperButch,

I am so very sorry. Please accept my appology. It is the thread you are talking about in your post that I did start a day or so ago and used the wording "women" in the trans zone. I meant no harm. Honest.

I will ask Linus to fix it if he can.

Again, my apology to you.

Namaste,
Andrew

No, Andrew. I was not speaking to your post/thread at all.

I am referring to when butches (especially if designated as female id'd butches) are automatically viewed as identifying as women.

As a side note, I was actually wondering if this post should be placed in the gender, identities, and labels forum? Linus?

Thanks.

(side note to Andrew: if you were referring to femmes specifically in that thread...it may be best for you to say that ... otherwise the word women may be construed as meaning both femmes and women identified butches. Just trying to be helpful, here)

[BullDog]

Dapper, since I am a butch woman who is outspoken, I will answer your post directly. First of all, when I am speaking about butch women that is who I am speaking about. I don't generalize to all butches. Most butches I know are women. The only place I have ever heard the phrase female-identified is online. If that is someone's identity I respect that. If you are not a butch woman then I'm not talking about you.

I wonder why your heart hurts from this. If you are not a woman you are not a woman.

As to separating out female and woman, I see male/man used interchangeably a lot more than I see female/woman used interchangeably and it confuses me a lot. I don't know what the term male-identified butch means. To me male is biological sex not gender.

As far as it being nice having female and woman separated, I'm glad it was nice for you. Having women erased is not nice to me and that's what I see a lot of. Like it's the most demeaning thing in the world to be a woman. People are apologizing for using the word woman. You will never hear me apologize for using the word woman. I think woman needs to be talked about more and given more visibility in online butch femme communities, not less.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I am writing this post as a reminder that many butches do not define as women and to request those peeps who are open to respecting this, try to reflect this in the wording of their posts.

Hi I was wondering if you could give examples? They don't need to be direct quotes from the site, but maybe some made-up examples? I'm a big fan of language and wording, but I do have a hard time figuring out sometimes how to best linguistically apply requests such as these without bumping up against others' requests. Are you talking about when butches are discussed in a more general sense or are you talking more about how people think/speak of you?

[GoofyLuvr]

Point well made. Something more to think on.

[JustBeingMe]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Dapper, since I am a butch woman who is outspoken, I will answer your post directly. First of all, when I am speaking about butch women that is who I am speaking about. I don't generalize to all butches. Most butches I know are women. The only place I have ever heard the phrase female-identified is online. If that is someone's identity I respect that. If you are not a butch woman then I'm not talking about you.

I wonder why your heart hurts from this. If you are not a woman you are not a woman.

As to separating out female and woman, I see male/man used interchangeably a lot more than I see female/woman used interchangeably and it confuses me a lot. I don't know what the term male-identified butch means. To me male is biological sex not gender.

As far as it being nice having female and woman separated, I'm glad it was nice for you. Having women erased is not nice to me and that's what I see a lot of. Like it's the most demeaning thing in the world to be a woman. People are apologizing for using the word woman. You will never hear me apologize for using the word woman. I think woman needs to be talked about more and given more visibility in online butch femme communities, not less.

Bulldog, I am right there with you. I am tired of people trying to erase butch women. I for one Identify as Butch Woman/Lesbian and Online It seems I have to be even more specific as to saying I am female Identified, as oposed to just being a lesbian butch woman, like it used to be in the older days of coming out for me. I do know not all butches Identify with being a lesbian, and not all butches ID as female or woman. I know for some it's a huge difference to ID as woman but not female, which even confuses me a tad bit. All the lingo has changed so much sometimes I can't even keep up with it. Maybe I can get you to pm me sometime to explain this lingo to me. the difference between female and woman thing online that is. I do commend you for ALWAYS stepping up to the plate about invisibility issues. Thanks.

[TenderKnight]

Hiya Dapper,

I can understand where you are coming from.. I've been on various butch/femme sites on and off again for about 10 years now and have seen a LOT of orbiting from one extreme to another.. In the late 90's, I had no idea what butch was, or femme, much less trans. When I came out, I came out as a lesbian, then as butch, then as TG butch, and now as trans.. Through all of that, I have seen a LOT of debates about pronouns, ID's, labels.. I don't know, maybe it is just a case of critical mass, there gets to be so much frustration within any ID'ing group that it kinda spills over.. Then people become PC and try to let that group know that, "hey, we get you.."

Maybe that is where we are now? Trans and TG and male identified has become the "buzz" word in the last couple of years.. Great for me, personally, being that I am a transgender person, but not so great for those that have had to take a back seat, at times, to the buzz word.. I get that you may feel that your personal ID and way of living and being is being ignored and maybe even becoming invisable..

I do get it.. I have no answers, but I will try to be respectful in my posts and my interactions with others on this site and in the "Real World". Thank you for the thread and the heads up.

In Light,
Tony

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Dapper, since I am a butch woman who is outspoken, I will answer your post directly. First of all, when I am speaking about butch women that is who I am speaking about. I don't generalize to all butches. Most butches I know are women. The only place I have ever heard the phrase female-identified is online. If that is someone's identity I respect that. If you are not a butch woman then I'm not talking about you.

I wonder why your heart hurts from this. If you are not a woman you are not a woman.

As to separating out female and woman, I see male/man used interchangeably a lot more than I see female/woman used interchangeably and it confuses me a lot. I don't know what the term male-identified butch means. To me male is biological sex not gender.

As far as it being nice having female and woman separated, I'm glad it was nice for you. Having women erased is not nice to me and that's what I see a lot of. Like it's the most demeaning thing in the world to be a woman. People are apologizing for using the word woman. You will never hear me apologize for using the word woman. I think woman needs to be talked about more and given more visibility in online butch femme communities, not less.

Hi, BullDog.

What I am asking is that one does not assume that if one's sex is female, than one's gender is woman.

That is all.

You yourself have said recently that you see sex and gender as separate things, so I guess I don't understand why you are saying that it doesn't make sense to you to separate sex from gender in this case (the case of women/female).

I am well aware that when you speak about butch women you are speaking about butch women only. I am also well aware that you do not view all butches as women.

This has nothing to do with erasing women.

Thanks.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Hi, BullDog.

What I am asking is that one does not assume that if one's sex is female, than one's gender is woman.

That is all.

You yourself have said recently that you see sex and gender as separate things, so I guess I don't understand why you are saying that it doesn't make sense to you to separate sex from gender in this case (the case of women/female).

I am well aware that when you speak about butch women you are speaking about butch women only. I am also well aware that you do not view all butches as women.

This has nothing to do with erasing women.

Thanks.

I never said it doesn't make sense to me to separate sex from gender in the case of women/female.

Your request seemed to be aimed at outspoken butch woman and things we are saying. As one of them, I am not clear on what your request is.

I repeat, I think there needs to be more- much more- discussion and visibility of women in online butch femme circles, not less- particularly when it pertains to butches (since there are so many misconceptions) but to femmes (since being women contributes to their invisibility within queer circles, even butch femme circles) as well.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Nat

Hi I was wondering if you could give examples? They don't need to be direct quotes from the site, but maybe some made-up examples? I'm a big fan of language and wording, but I do have a hard time figuring out sometimes how to best linguistically apply requests such as these without bumping up against others' requests. Are you talking about when butches are discussed in a more general sense or are you talking more about how people think/speak of you?

Hi, Nat.

I don't know if you were on the dash site/other b/f sites in the past , but one thing that I noticed, was that people would often say "female and/or women identified butches"...or something along those lines, I can't think of how most wrote it right now...there was always an acknowledgement of not all butches identifying as women (people used that same sort of language here at the Planet when it first opened, as well).

I am not speaking to the issue of male identied versus female identified butches. That is not what I am talking about.

I am only speaking to the issue of mixing up sex with gender...assuming that a female (sex) butch also identifies as a woman (gender).

Over the years, many butches have indicated that they do not view themselves as women.

Make sense?

The thing is, I was just throwing it out there...something that I have noticed and I took the chance of saying something, hoping that others knew what I was talking about. I am not even saying it is happening a whole lot, or is even really direct at this point...I just was concerned that it was moving in this direction and wondered if others noticed it as well.

If it is something that people want to think about, cool. If not, that is cool too.

[Kobi]

Interesting discussion. As a woman who entered the community shortly after the last supper, much has changed. We didnt distinguish between sex and gender back then. We were concerned with being seen as women period.

All these different id's are difficult and complicated and confusing. And, it is not something I deal with in my everyday life. So, when here, it is kind of frustrating to try to remember who is who and who prefers what. Sometimes, for me, being here is like being in a foreign country, with a foreign language and foreign customs.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I am only speaking to the issue of mixing up sex with gender...assuming that a female (sex) butch also identifies as a woman (gender).

Over the years, many butches have indicated that they do not view themselves as women.

Make sense?

Ummm....no. And let me preface this by saying I'm still in my self-proclaimed "newly hatched" stage with little experience, and also that I've had a really, really, really tough couple of days.... so it may make perfect sense to everyone else here and I'm just not understanding. But I'm trying to.... so any enlightenment would be most appreciated.

Here's where I get hung up. I get that female is sex/anatomical. I get that woman is gender...which is more of an internalized perception of who I am.

I get that there are butches who claim male gender or ID.

Where I'm stuck is trying to wrap my head around how someone can be a female-ID'ed butch and not view themselves as a woman.

For the record, I adore a magnificent butch woman...so I'm not slinging off at anyone. I'm just confused as all get out...

[Beau]

Originally Posted by BullDog

As far as it being nice having female and woman separated, I'm glad it was nice for you. Having women erased is not nice to me and that's what I see a lot of. Like it's the most demeaning thing in the world to be a woman. People are apologizing for using the word woman. You will never hear me apologize for using the word woman. I think woman needs to be talked about more and given more visibility in online butch femme communities, not less.

It's not nice. It's not necessary to demean anyone.

Originally Posted by JustBeingMe

I know for some it's a huge difference to ID as woman but not female, which even confuses me a tad bit. All the lingo has changed so much sometimes I can't even keep up with it.

It's difficult to follow how gender IDs morph and the individual meanings given these identifications. I can't keep up either, so I try to be respectful of all and never assume. That's all we can do.

Originally Posted by BullDog

I repeat, I think there needs to be more- much more- discussion and visibility of women in online butch femme circles, not less- particularly when it pertains to butches (since there are so many misconceptions) but to femmes (since being women contributes to their invisibility within queer circles, even butch femme circles) as well.

I just wanted to repeat this because I believe Dapper's recent perceptions may have stemmed from other discussions where the attempt has been made to give butch women more visibility and voice. Other than that, I truly have not seen any shift toward the assumption that butch = woman. Also, femme invisibility is rarely given the discussion it deserves, and I think your point here is valid. Thanks for putting it in this context.

Originally Posted by Kobi

Interesting discussion. As a woman who entered the community shortly after the last supper, much has changed. We didnt distinguish between sex and gender back then. We were concerned with being seen as women period.

All these different id's are difficult and complicated and confusing. And, it is not something I deal with in my everyday life. So, when here, it is kind of frustrating to try to remember who is who and who prefers what. Sometimes, for me, being here is like being in a foreign country, with a foreign language and foreign customs.

I bussed the tables at the last supper, so I feel your confusion with the changes you see here online.

For the record, and I don't believe I'm alone in this, I'm still concerned with being seen and respected as a woman, period. I had to reign myself in when I read Dapper's opening post because I'm so very tired of all of the gender identity parsing of butch, but then I realized I wasn't being fair to those who don't feel acknowledged -- for whatever reason. See, this isn't a foreign country with its own language and customs, it's a world we build for ourselves on here. And that changes daily. Scary, but true.

So, Dapper, I will do my absolute best to only use "woman" as it pertains to butch as gender and not sex. For me, it's one and the same, but for some that is not true. I don't have to understand it to give those who feel differently the respect I wish to have afforded myself.

[Heart]

I may be asking JustJo's question slightly differently: What is it, for a female-identified butch, that is uncomfortable/inappropriate about being called a woman? In other words, what does "woman" MEAN that you do not wish to be identified with/as?

This is not meant to be snarky or to put a microscope on anyone. I just wonder if the definition of "woman" gets so stereotyped and rigid that even those who are female can't identify with it. And not just butches. There are femmes who do not identify with the word either.

Perhaps I will start yet another thread: What does WOMAN mean?

Full disclosure: For me, having female-identified people reject the identity of woman feels like a loss. And I mean that in a political/historical/emotional/social/cultural context.

Heart

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I never said it doesn't make sense to me to separate sex from gender in the case of women/female.

Your request seemed to be aimed at outspoken butch woman and things we are saying. As one of them, I am not clear on what your request is.

I repeat, I think there needs to be more- much more- discussion and visibility of women in online butch femme circles, not less- particularly when it pertains to butches (since there are so many misconceptions) but to femmes (since being women contributes to their invisibility within queer circles, even butch femme circles) as well.

Hi, BullDog. I can see how my post may have appeared to be directed towards butch women. It was directed towards everyone for their thoughts.

I agree that the visibility of butches who identify as women is important and would also say that the visibility of butch women is not something that was supported in the past.

P.S. Sorry this is so delayed...I am at work and my computer is being funky!

[BullDog]

Dapper, I think I understand a little bit more of what you were saying based on your response to Nat.

I have discussed with other butches in discussions both here and the former site about female identified butch. To me that is phrase that is used online, but for me personally doesn't hold a lot of meaning. I don't tend to use it much anymore. It also seems to be used as the counterpart to male identified butch and this so-called war we are all engaged in.

I also don't think that saying female/woman identified butch is very meaningful either. There are lots of butches who say yes I am female but don't see themselves as female identified or butch woman. Some butches say butch with no qualifiers is their gender, others say third gender, other gender, pan gender and still see themselves as female. The list goes on.

p.s. Heart I would love to see your thread on Woman.

[Kobi]

Yes, I'd love to see a woman thread! I'd also like to see a lesbian thread.....or is that not politically correct these days?

[Chancie]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Yes, I'd love to see a woman thread! I'd also like to see a lesbian thread.....or is that not politically correct these days?

It's a little hard for me to read "not politically correct these days" when I usually have that tossed at me when I stand up for what I believe is right.

In general, it feels dismissive to me when a comment is followed by some version of "or whatever is politically correct".

[Toughy]

Kobi..........can you make your type size bigger........I need a magnifying glass to read your posts..........I'm old....laughin.....