The Female Male ID "Wars"... or Great Divide

[Heart]

In Medusa's companion thread (femme perspectives on the gender war), she asked: * Do you feel ... that it [gender wars] is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

I think that's an IMPORTANT question and I don't really understand why the discussion of "gender wars" or the "female/male divide" is being separated into femme and butch discussions, so I'm cross-posting what I said in Medusa's thread here:

Question: Do you feel ... that it [gender wars/male-female divide] is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

YES!

For me, this is the point. Really the only point I give a flying fuck about. This is why we end up in these "gender wars."

It isn't that we don't respect diversity, it isn't that we can't accept each others different journies or pronouns, it's that THIS, the absolute concrete reality of sexism and misogyny, is under-recognized as the MUCK in which we are all swimming while we do our journies and choose our pronouns and create our identities. THAT'S THE PROBLEM!

That's the reason I started the "men with boobs" thread. That's the reason I comment in gender threads. That's the reason I stand up and speak out when I choose to do so. That's the THING that matters in all of this.

At least to me.

Heart

[SuperFemme]

I think the thread in the Femme Zone is right where it belongs.
Some people consider Femme their gender. Sometimes it is ok to want to have a dialogue in Femme space. This is one of those times.

[waxnrope]

Sorry, I thought this was opened to butches for discussion ... at least initially. Where are we?
It feels as if the animosity/ies spoken of have shown up on this thread. I find it interesting, as a relatively newbie, and also paradoxical.
I am interested in reading and reflecting on responses first, being new. I'd like to hear more from my butch brothers and sister butches who ID as women. I see that the femmes have started their own thread ... maybe we can, as butches, stay on topic and have this discussion.

[Goofy]

I agree with much of what has already been stated. I don’t feel any animosity towards any one group, nor do I think my ID is “at war” with any other ID, per se.

What I do see is a number of people getting riled up about one thing or another and being very vocal in their opinions. This is sometimes perceived as one ID being pitted against another when, in reality, it’s an individual thing.

I don’t believe in having to be the loudest to make myself heard.

Very rarely will I post in threads that do not pertain to my ID. But I realize that’s my thing. I may read in those threads however, for both knowledge and understanding. Hell, I rarely post much at all these days.

And mostly I’m tired. I’m tired of the circular conversations/arguments that have been going on for years about which ID is being shot down and which one is put on a pedestal; how to be x, y or z, or not; who’s more, or less (___fill in the blank). They go round and round and everyone gets their undergarments of choice in a knot and usually we end up right back where we started from. And I’m not sure how we get past that.

It truly makes me sad.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Goofy

I agree with much of what has already been stated. I don’t feel any animosity towards any one group, nor do I think my ID is “at war” with any other ID, per se.

What I do see is a number of people getting riled up about one thing or another and being very vocal in their opinions. This is sometimes perceived as one ID being pitted against another when, in reality, it’s an individual thing.

I don’t believe in having to be the loudest to make myself heard.

Very rarely will I post in threads that do not pertain to my ID. But I realize that’s my thing. I may read in those threads however, for both knowledge and understanding. Hell, I rarely post much at all these days.

And mostly I’m tired. I’m tired of the circular conversations/arguments that have been going on for years about which ID is being shot down and which one is put on a pedestal; how to be x, y or z, or not; who’s more, or less (___fill in the blank). They go round and round and everyone gets their undergarments of choice in a knot and usually we end up right back where we started from. And I’m not sure how we get past that.

It truly makes me sad.

It is so damn hard to hear from many of the long-time members that this has been going on and on and on.... and that they tend to just stop posting much at all. But, this is what I am often told. And I have to say that I know it is only a matter of time until I just give it up! Well, online. There are folks that I have had an opprortunity to get to know offline locally that I know I can talk about this stuff honestly with. And maybe at events like Biutch voices if we can get together there.

Maybe it won't ever end.

Yup, sad. Sux.....

[Gayla]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

It is so damn hard to hear from many of the long-time members that this has been going on and on and on.... and that they tend to just stop posting much at all. But, this is what I am often told. And I have to say that I know it is only a matter of time until I just give it up! Well, online. There are folks that I have had an opprortunity to get to know offline locally that I know I can talk about this stuff honestly with. And maybe at events like Biutch voices if we can get together there.

Maybe it won't ever end.

Yup, sad. Sux.....

I don't think it will ever end. I also don't think that's a bad thing.

People find us at various stages in their journey and, hopefully, there will always be people here willing to discuss these issues based on where they are along their own path. If/when one of us gets tired of beating our head against the proverbial gender wall, someone else will be there to pick up where we left off.

Yes, we do this a lot. But, I learn something new just about every time we do it.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I think the thread in the Femme Zone is right where it belongs.
Some people consider Femme their gender. Sometimes it is ok to want to have a dialogue in Femme space. This is one of those times.

Help me out here... I get pissy about my femme safe zone so I gotta ask why the hell is this in a butch thread?

SF & Snowy -- I'll answer this here.

I wasn't questioning anyone's gender identity. Nor was I trying to be disrespectful of anyone's space. See that's what gets to me -- that these discussions are always reduced to that.

My point isn't about anyone's gender. My point -- which is relevant in both threads and whether one is femme or butch, is about the context of sexism and misogyny in which we all do our genders.

But I can see that I am muddying the waters by being in here, so I'll bow out with apologies for any intrusion

Heart

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Heart

SF & Snowy -- I'll answer this here.

I wasn't questioning anyone's gender identity. Nor was I trying to be disrespectful of anyone's space. See that's what gets to me -- that these discussions are always reduced to that.

My point isn't about anyone's gender. My point -- which is relevant in both threads and whether one is femme or butch, is about the context of sexism and misogyny in which we all do our genders.

But I can see that I am muddying the waters by being in here, so I'll bow out with apologies for any intrusion

Heart

thank you for taking the time to respond...

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Heart

SF & Snowy -- I'll answer this here.

I wasn't questioning anyone's gender identity. Nor was I trying to be disrespectful of anyone's space. See that's what gets to me -- that these discussions are always reduced to that.

My point isn't about anyone's gender. My point -- which is relevant in both threads and whether one is femme or butch, is about the context of sexism and misogyny in which we all do our genders.

But I can see that I am muddying the waters by being in here, so I'll bow out with apologies for any intrusion

Heart

I got your point, there is no need to leave.

With that said, it is still IMHO relevant to have the particular discussion we are having in the Femme zone.

Sometimes, examining sexism and misogyny within a Femme space can lead to better introspection.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Heart

In Medusa's companion thread (femme perspectives on the gender war), she asked: * Do you feel ... that it [gender wars] is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

I think that's an IMPORTANT question and I don't really understand why the discussion of "gender wars" or the "female/male divide" is being separated into femme and butch discussions, so I'm cross-posting what I said in Medusa's thread here:

Question: Do you feel ... that it [gender wars/male-female divide] is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

YES!

For me, this is the point. Really the only point I give a flying fuck about. This is why we end up in these "gender wars."

It isn't that we don't respect diversity, it isn't that we can't accept each others different journies or pronouns, it's that THIS, the absolute concrete reality of sexism and misogyny, is under-recognized as the MUCK in which we are all swimming while we do our journies and choose our pronouns and create our identities. THAT'S THE PROBLEM!

That's the reason I started the "men with boobs" thread. That's the reason I comment in gender threads. That's the reason I stand up and speak out when I choose to do so. That's the THING that matters in all of this.

At least to me.

Heart

Help me out here... I get pissy about my femme safe zone so I gotta ask why the hell is this in a butch thread?

Cause lemme tell you nothing irritates me more, and I am speaking for me, nothing pisses me off more than when femme views are dragged for butch validation

It's a slap..

Just sayin/