Butch/Femme Dynamic vs "Masculinity" and "Femininity"

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Esme nha Maire

Harking back to an earlier bit of this thread, I've been pondering the terms masculinity/femininity and butch/femme. I can't quite explain it properly yet, but I've a feeling that seeing butchness in women as being female masculinity is kinda backwards somehow. I'm just thinking aloud here, no offence to anyone is intended - but I'd say that masculinity is male butchness, just as femininity is female femmeness. So... butch and femme are the more fundamental, but when butchness is expressed by a male or femmeness by a female, it then fits the societal sterotype of masculinity/femininity respectively. I think. Does that make sense? I'd be particularly interested to know what any of the FTM gents here think on this.

I came to this thought whilst considering my former discomfort at being occasionally thought butch. I came to the conclusion that it's not the butchness I mind so such as the implication that that somehow involves masculinity (which, given my background, is anathema to me!). Which raises the question, of course, as to whether my personal feelings have warped my perception to the point of mangling the language simply to make myself feel more comfortable. I don't think so, but please do say if you think I'm nuts and have done just that!

For me personally, no I do not view my masculinity as male butchness. I do view male as a biological and not a gender term - some people do use it as both. I don't consider myself to be male - either as my gender or biological sex.

I am a masculine female - which for me is the essence of what butch is (other butches have their own definitions that are different than mine).

To me saying male butchness sounds like imitating male, when I view my female masculinity as being my own and not something I am getting from males. I may look somewhat male, act similar to males in some ways, my sexuality is very similar to males in some ways, etc., but I grew up female and have experienced the world as a lesbian/queer female, which to me is an entirely different experience. I move through the world now as a butch not a man. I am not offended at all, it just doesn't fit for me.

[Esme nha Maire]

Originally Posted by BullDog

For me personally, no I do not view my masculinity as male butchness. I do view male as a biological and not a gender term - some people do use it as both. I don't consider myself to be male - either as my gender or biological sex.

I am a masculine female - which for me is the essence of what butch is (other butches have their own definitions that are different than mine).

To me saying male butchness sounds like imitating male, when I view my female masculinity as being my own and not something I am getting from males. I may look somewhat male, act similar to males in some ways, my sexuality is very similar to males in some ways, etc., but I grew up female and have experienced the world as a lesbian/queer female, which to me is an entirely different experience. I move through the world now as a butch not a man. I am not offended at all, it just doesn't fit for me.

Interesting, thank you, BullDog! Although I think you may have misunderstood what I wastrying to say, as I emphatically do not see butch women as being male in the slightest. See, to me, saying 'masculine female' seems to imply imitating the male, and now I've come across, albeit very briefly, a few women on the butch spectrum, I'd say that they didn't come across as imitating males at all - they were undeniably butch though. So what I'm trying to get at is that I'm thinking that instead of defining butchness in terms of 'degree of masculinity' (which to me makes it seem as though butch women are aping men), it ought to be that butchness is a thing in and of itself, no masculinity required.

Instead, I would argue, when a woman exhibits butchness she is, quite simply being a butch woman - but when a man exhibits butchness we might think of them as 'a butch man', but more commonly we'd skip that thought and use the term 'masculine', which means 'pertaining to maleness',and that, I would argue, is inappropriate when talking of women. So I am arguing that masculinity is simply the stereotypical expression of butchness in men, because the stereotype, for society as a whole, is that butchness is most often associated with males. There is no word meaning 'the stereotypical expression of butchnesss in women', and I don't think there needs to be, either, because butch women are a minority expression of butchness in society as a whole, and therefore aren't stereotypical in society as a whole.

In short - men are butch in their way, women are butch in their way, and whilst there are similarities, the underlying difference in sex/gender identity makes a difference. No need to imply that butch women are appropriating masculinity or trying to be like men at all. Whereas doing things the other way around, by defining butchness in terms of masculinity, may be, I think, what perpetuates the myth that butch women are somehow trying to be men - which is, of course, utter rubbish.

[BullDog]

Hi Esme nha Maire, Oh okay I think I did somewhat misunderstand you, although I didn't think you were saying butch women were male. Sorry I didn't get a lot of sleep, so I am probably not thinking real clearly.

I personally do see myself as a masculine female and my masculinity being distinct from male masculinity just through sheer life experience being different and being queer. But I also do agree masculinity can be a problematic term and our language tends to fail us when it comes to trying to describe and talk about gender. Thank you for your posts, I really enjoy them!

[ardentfemme]

“I begin to imagine myself being the woman that a woman always wanted. That’s what I begin to eroticize. That’s what I begin to feel from my lover’s hands. I begin to fantasize myself becoming more and more female in order to comprehend and meet what I feel happening in her body. I don’t want her not to be female to me. Her need is female, but it’s butch because I am asking her to expose her desire through the movement of her hands on my body and I’ll respond. I want to give up power in response to her need. This can feel profoundly powerful and very unpassive.”
— Amber Hollibaugh, “What We’re Rollin Around in Bed With: Sexual Silences in Feminism: A Conversation Toward Ending Them” by Amber Hollibaugh and Cherríe Moraga, 1981

I was just reading this and I wanted to share it. To me, it speaks volumes about the distinctiveness of the b/f dynamic.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by ardentfemme

“I begin to imagine myself being the woman that a woman always wanted. That’s what I begin to eroticize. That’s what I begin to feel from my lover’s hands. I begin to fantasize myself becoming more and more female in order to comprehend and meet what I feel happening in her body. I don’t want her not to be female to me. Her need is female, but it’s butch because I am asking her to expose her desire through the movement of her hands on my body and I’ll respond. I want to give up power in response to her need. This can feel profoundly powerful and very unpassive.”
— Amber Hollibaugh, “What We’re Rollin Around in Bed With: Sexual Silences in Feminism: A Conversation Toward Ending Them” by Amber Hollibaugh and Cherríe Moraga, 1981

I was just reading this and I wanted to share it. To me, it speaks volumes about the distinctiveness of the b/f dynamic.

That's her experience and perhaps yours. I dare say it's a lot of femmes' experience, but there are femme tops and butch bottoms. There are also many butch femme couples whose sex does not include experiencing the butch partner's need as female.

[Stone-Butch]

I agree with Bulldog. Those who don't might want to read, "Female Masculinity" and then decide if it is male or female or both.

Judith Halberstam is the author

[kittygrrl]

i believe i am at the point where labels, male, female, masculine, etc have only small meanings. I measure the person, consider their ideas and i do not see any good reason for splaying the flesh off and considering (the) why it is or (the) what it means to be this or that..it's enough for me that you are you and i love it...the mystery of how you became you is something we can savor with delightful rapport, whenever you are inspired to share it

[ardentfemme]

Originally Posted by Martina

That's her experience and perhaps yours. I dare say it's a lot of femmes' experience, but there are femme tops and butch bottoms. There are also many butch femme couples whose sex does not include experiencing the butch partner's need as female.

Hi Martina,

Yes, I completely agree with you! I definitely appreciate the diversity of b/f dynamics and I grasp the complexity of gender, especially as it plays out in intimate relationships.

In fact, the quote I cited does not resonate with all my personal experiences. So I understand where you're coming from.

I just liked the quote and the author.

I'm just now parsing the previous posts on this thread and trying to formulate a cogent response. As always, there's a lot to chew on here! For now, though, I'm thinking about the idea of butch as a gender. Quite a few writers have conceptualized it this way (Bergman, Coyote, etc.) and many butches I've known have viewed their butchness in this way - not as mere presentation or expression, but as an innate part of their being. In any case, it's an interesting assertion. I wouldn't claim to know about being butch, since I'm at the very opposite end of the spectrum, but I do find it to be an interesting and potentially useful perspective.