Preferences changing during transition

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Martina

Interesting question. So you are asking everyone? I don't want to intrude too much on a trans thread.

I think the thread is open to anyone to talk. But, the point of the thread is to talk about preference changes after a trans person starts on cross sex hormones.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Martina

Interesting question. So you are asking everyone? I don't want to intrude too much on a trans thread.

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I think the thread is open to anyone to talk. But, the point of the thread is to talk about preference changes after a trans person starts on cross sex hormones.

Oh, I see!

You are asking about what Esme nha Marie asked about regarding sexual vs. romantic leanings.

I think it is a great topic. Soberboi isn't responding, and there is only a small number of us medically transitioning trans people on this site, so I doubt we will hear from anyone else.

I don't see it as problematic to shift gears.

[Martina]

Well, I don't have anything that interesting to say. I have both romantic and sexual feelings toward women. Every once in a while I'll see why people respond to a particular guy, but I can't imagine a physical connection.

That said, most of my best friends have been men, some gay, mostly straight. I find men relaxing to be around, maybe because there isn't that sexual charge. I am almost never attracted to friends once they become friends, so that's not the whole story. Truth is I like men.

I like their company. All these years only two of my male friends have offended my feminist sensibilities. They were both gay men. Sometimes gay men think, or used to think, they got a free pass on sexism. Uh no. I also think some gay men amongst themselves can be crass about women. My straight male friends would never have conversations with other men in which women were spoken disrespectfully of. I believe that. And most of my gay male friends too. But two of them crossed that line with me, supposedly as a joke. It wasn't pretty. We stayed friends, but clearly I still remember.

I am wandering. I tend to have better friendships with men although right now the two people I am most in contact with are queer women. I don't know why. I find men's company more relaxing. But that is not romance. So, no, I don't have romantic feelings toward a gender I am not sexually attracted to.

[Esme nha Maire]

Dapper, my thinking is that whilst society has tended to take a simplistic view of gender and sexual attraction (gender binary, and opposites attract), in relity, things are much more complex than that.

Whilst I wouldn't like to rule out the taking of hormones as having an effect on ones sexuality with regard to whom one finds attractive, I have to say I'm mildly skeptical thus far. My guess would be that an individuals innate level of plasticity in regard to sexual orientation is affected by the whole slew of stuff happening in their lives at any given time.

As an example, was I going to explore my feelings about guys when the world saw me as a guy? Heck, no! I am not and never was a gay male. Involvement with women who saw me as male was quite bad enough, thank you, involvement with guys at the time - well, I'd rather have died. Only after the world started seeing me as female did I feel ready to start my explorations, and yes, a change in hormones was a part of that process, but it didn't cause my willingness to explore.

Now, I know from chatting with you, Dapper, that with FTMs they are often effectively Butches and leaning toward the masculine (and perhaps seen as male by the world) for quite some time before coming to the conclusion that they need to transition. Could it be that the decision to take testosterone, aided by its effects, is the last piece of the puzzle that then makes some folk happier to explore their sexuality properly? As in 'OK, now I'm properly a guy, I'm happier, hey, who do I really want to fool around with?!' Or do you think that it really is the testosterone all by itself that is inducing a change in sexuality?

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Esme nha Maire

Dapper, my thinking is that whilst society has tended to take a simplistic view of gender and sexual attraction (gender binary, and opposites attract), in relity, things are much more complex than that.

Whilst I wouldn't like to rule out the taking of hormones as having an effect on ones sexuality with regard to whom one finds attractive, I have to say I'm mildly skeptical thus far. My guess would be that an individuals innate level of plasticity in regard to sexual orientation is affected by the whole slew of stuff happening in their lives at any given time.

As an example, was I going to explore my feelings about guys when the world saw me as a guy? Heck, no! I am not and never was a gay male. Involvement with women who saw me as male was quite bad enough, thank you, involvement with guys at the time - well, I'd rather have died. Only after the world started seeing me as female did I feel ready to start my explorations, and yes, a change in hormones was a part of that process, but it didn't cause my willingness to explore.

Now, I know from chatting with you, Dapper, that with FTMs they are often effectively Butches and leaning toward the masculine (and perhaps seen as male by the world) for quite some time before coming to the conclusion that they need to transition. Could it be that the decision to take testosterone, aided by its effects, is the last piece of the puzzle that then makes some folk happier to explore their sexuality properly? As in 'OK, now I'm properly a guy, I'm happier, hey, who do I really want to fool around with?!' Or do you think that it really is the testosterone all by itself that is inducing a change in sexuality?

Hi, Esme nha Maire. Yes, I agree with you that it is not the testosterone that causes the "attraction change", but rather is someone becoming more comfortable within themselves, so they are more open to whom they may find attractive. It is interesting when you hear people (in my experience, most often early-mid 20's trans men), say that they realize that they are attracted to cis men after they get on T. Something to keep in mind though with those guys, is that they were young and were maybe just coming into their sexuality.

I have known of some MTFs who were not comfortable dating at all until they had lower surgery, regardless as to if they are attracted to males or females. It is for the reason that you describe....they did not want to be seen, or feel, that they were having sex as males. My experience again, as a gender therapist is that MTFs often don't see themselves as truly female until they have lower surgery. I do not see this with FTMs. Of course, I still see the dysphoria of worrying that others don't see them as "men", but I don't hear them not seeing themselves as men until/unless they have a penis. This may be why I see a much, much greater number of MTFs wanting lower surgery than FTMs.

I think this will surprise you (based on some of your posts), that many trans men do not have an interest in lower surgery. Now, you may have heard how complicated lower surgery (of any type) is for trans men, what with 50% of the time having complications that often require revision surgery(ies), but in my experience (and I think most trans men would tell you that they have seen this too), most do not have enough bottom dysphoria that they get surgery...some do not have any bottom dysphoria at all.

I can tell you, that I would estimate that only 20% of my FTM clients are interested in lower surgery. And all of them are adolescents. The bulk of my work currently is with adolescents, so this is a bit skewed. I can tell you that probably only 5% of my adult FTM clients have shown an interest in lower surgery.

When it comes to my MTFs clients, I would say that 90% have an interest in lower surgery. As you know, lower surgery for trans women is usually very successful and really isn't that complicated, inc comaprison. Is that the reason? I don't think all of it. Is it because society is so focused on "the penis" as a sign of masculinity? I don't know.

Something to note, is that my experience is obviously only with people in the U.S. In the UK, it might be different. I will have to ask some of my friends from England.

I suspect that for you, one of the reasons why you would be surprised to hear this is because you transitioned during a time where it was expected that a person would have lower surgery if they transitioned (along with one or two things I have read in your posts). Also, you are in the UK where insurance has always covered it (I assume). In the early days of people transitioning here 1960's-1970's (before Dr. McHugh at John Hopkins shifted the field into thinking we were mentally ill and all the gender clinics shut down in the U.S.), the insurance companies covered the lower surgeries for our MTF/FTM individuals as well. Back then, it was a requirement in order to be accepted into a gender program you had to be heterosexual (be attracted to the opposite sex from your identified gender). Was it the same over there? Did you have to lie and say you were attracted to males in order to get your surgery like I assume some did here?

I know that I am getting off topic here, but I don't believe the OP will be returning.

Also, something that I want to make sure that I always say is that this is just my experience in my corner of the U.S. However, with that said, I have a great deal of contact with the busiest and most experienced clinicians in the field here in the U.S. I have heard similar information from the other providers, but some of this is anecdotal evidence. I have not read any research on number of trans people desiring which surgeries. We are still such a young field and working with small numbers of individuals in our studies. Obviously, the numbers are getting larger.

ETA: FTMs desiring top surgery is something different. I have yet to meet a trans man who didn't want top surgery and didn't have intense dysphoria about their chest. Maybe because our society views women's breasts as the epitome of femininity (womanhood) in the way we view the penis as masculinity (male). Of course, there must be some trans men out there who don't, I am again, just stating my experience as both a gender therapist and as a trans man in the trans community.

[Esme nha Maire]

Hi Dapper!

It's the low level of genital dysphoria that you report that surprised me, Dapper, rather than the low level of desire for surgery. Knowing how chancy FTM genital reassignment surgery was, I wasn't surprised that some or even many might choose not to undergo it despite bodily dysphoria - but I was, until quite recently, assuming that FTMs had genital dysphoria just as strongly as MTF's do. Not surprised that FTMs get strong dysphoria about their breasts.

I frankly didnt give a monkeys what society's views were on genitalia or breasts as epitomising one gender or the other - I simply knew that my body was equipped with the wrong bits, and it needed to be equipped with the right bits to bring me inner peace. And reassignment surgery below plus breast development up top DID bring me inner peace. My body felt right, my brain is wired for this body, not the one I had.

Yes, certainly on the MTF side, it was expected that bodily dysphoria would be present, that the patient would at least want to have reassignment surgery. Whether or not they could might be another matter, depending on medical situation, like obesity, heart problems etc, but if there were no medical problems preventing, it was epxected that the individual would be wanting to go through surgery yes.

I do not understand your reference to insurance - that's actually something that I have been meaning to ask you privately for a while. Insurance had nothing to do with it. Gender reassignment treatment here is free on the NHS. That's it. I don't even understand where insurance could come into the picture (caveat - this hits an area in which I am, to this day, unworldly, so if it involves insurance and isn't utterly straightforward, I might not understand).

With regard to sexuality, it did seem to be expected that us MTF's would have at least some desire for guys, yes. I told the truth, which in the first instance was that I had had crushes on people of both genders, but that my libido had gone quiescent, and I really wasn't too worried about that until after I'd had surgery - I'd work things out in the end. Perfectly true at teh time. This did not seem to cause any concern.

I do know that a significant minority of MTFs deliberately told psychiatrists exactly what they believed the psychiatrist wanted to hear, irrespective of the truth, simply to try to ensure that they obtained surgery. I did not realise this for some while. I really do not know what I might have done had I been aware that I was lesbian at the time - but if any lying had been involved, it would have been as minimal as possible. I never lied about my interests, which I know a lot of the others did, to try to appear socially more femme. I didn't see the point - one wouldn't have to try very hard to spot the lie.

I ran into problems with a rogue psychiatrist before I realised I was lesbian, and the psychiatrist who oversaw my case later didn't see any problem with my being lesbian. He was only concerned that I had been living as a woman for several years, had held down jobs, changed jobs etc as a woman.

[DapperButch]

My thoughts are in blue.

Originally Posted by Esme nha Maire

Hi Dapper!

It's the low level of genital dysphoria that you report that surprised me, Dapper, rather than the low level of desire for surgery. Knowing how chancy FTM genital reassignment surgery was, I wasn't surprised that some or even many might choose not to undergo it despite bodily dysphoria - but I was, until quite recently, assuming that FTMs had genital dysphoria just as strongly as MTF's do. Not surprised that FTMs get strong dysphoria about their breasts.

I frankly didnt give a monkeys what society's views were on genitalia or breasts as epitomising one gender or the other -

Right. When I was talking about society, I was talking about what we would have internalized unconsciously that might impact one's body dysphoria.

Too, and this is something that I didn't mention before, but that you might not know, is that the clitoris on a female bodied person enlarges quite a bit when they take testosterone. Many people don't realize how similar male and female bodies are. Some of the differences is only how they are configured.

A natal female's clitoris is really just a very small phallus, with the clitoral hood being the same as the a natal male's foreskin (or you can see it as vice versa...the male phallus being just a very large clitoris). Anyway, on testosterone, a FTM's clitoris grows on average to .5 - 1.5 inches. If you pull back the foreskin/clitoral hood, a perfectly circumcised phallus is underneath. The scrotal tissue of a natal male is the same tissue as the labia majora tissue on a female. The difference is that the labia majora tissue closed up during development in the womb in males. That is why you see the line between down the center of the scrotum. It is the labia majora tissue closing. And, of course, the testes are likened to the ovaries.

I got off track, but my point is that I think that one of the reason why FTMs have less lower genital dysphoria is that they have what would be termed a micropenis from testosterone.


I simply knew that my body was equipped with the wrong bits, and it needed to be equipped with the right bits to bring me inner peace. And reassignment surgery below plus breast development up top DID bring me inner peace. My body felt right, my brain is wired for this body, not the one I had.

Do you know if the NHS will pay for breast implants for MTFs? Here is is seen as cosmetic for trans women, the same as it is seen for cis women. Not all trans women get much breast growth though.

I do not understand your reference to insurance - that's actually something that I have been meaning to ask you privately for a while. Insurance had nothing to do with it. Gender reassignment treatment here is free on the NHS. That's it. I don't even understand where insurance could come into the picture (caveat - this hits an area in which I am, to this day, unworldly, so if it involves insurance and isn't utterly straightforward, I might not understand).

Right, I know how the NHS system works. Trans people in the U.S. have been jealous of ya'll in the UK and Canada for years, what with your free surgeries! In the U.S. one can have private insurance (employer and/or you pay for), or insurance provided free from the government for people who are below the poverty level or for people who are on disability. Until the last 5 years it was very, very, super, super rare that any of the insurance companies paid for transgender surgeries. So, if you wanted top or lower surgery, you had to pay out of pocket. Now that more insurance companies are covering (paying for) surgeries, we are seeing a dramatic increase in surgeries for both sexes. Back in the day (mid 1960's-mid 1970's) at the old time "gender clinics" (I know you guys still have those, and use that term), surgeries were covered. The gender clinics where through university hospitals. I don't know who paid for the surgeries, the government or the private insurance companies, but somehow, back then, if you were determined to be transsexual you got your surgery. That stopped when the clinics closed in the later 1970's.

With regard to sexuality, it did seem to be expected that us MTF's would have at least some desire for guys, yes. I told the truth, which in the first instance was that I had had crushes on people of both genders, but that my libido had gone quiescent, and I really wasn't too worried about that until after I'd had surgery - I'd work things out in the end. Perfectly true at teh time. This did not seem to cause any concern.

Well, here in the U.S. you would be denied trans health care if you were gay. There was a FTM, Lou Sullivan, in the 1970's, who was denied acceptance to the gender clinic 10 times because he was gay...he actually was a pioneer who essentially "started" the coming together of the trans community in the U.S.

I never lied about my interests, which I know a lot of the others did, to try to appear socially more femme. I didn't see the point - one wouldn't have to try very hard to spot the lie.

They also turned you away if you weren't seen as feminine enough if you were MTF. The whole thing was so freaking ridiculous.