Forgiveness

[Julie]

I can and will forgive any action (be it verbal or physical) which has been handed down to me.

In order for me to heal from the assault/action, I must forgive. If I carry the anger/hurt with me, then I will not heal, nor will I be able to shed this emotion from my being. I have been assaulted and without going into the details of my assault -- I needed to forgive my perpetrators in order to heal. People who knew of this, were pretty upset with me, that I would even consider it, to go to that place for them. If I continued the hurt/anger - then I would be a victim. I cannot ever be a victim. This would destroy me internally -- This does not work for all people, but it worked for me and continues to do so.

Forgiving myself... This is a much deeper and more difficult notion for me to conquer. I still carry the pain and sadness, of all the hurt I have created in others. I do not believe the hurt I have caused was intentional and it does not matter for me. What matters, I brought sadness and hurt to another person. For me, I cannot use the "I am human." There is no excuse for me.

Julie... I grew up with an orthodox grandmother and with the traditions and prayers you spoke of. I wish I could go back there sometimes - I have this block which keeps me from going there. I think, I have yet to forgive G-D - perhaps that should be part of my forgiving.

Julie

[Laerkin]

**Disclaimer: I decided not to read the other entries first because I didn't want my initial thoughts and feelings influenced by the always-intriguing entries. So I apologize if any of this is massively repetitive.

Forgiveness of others is imperative for growth (in my opinion). The people I most admire (Dalai Lama, Gandhi, Pema Chodron, wise friends) believe that forgiveness is what allows us to heal, to experience compassion, and to move forward on our path. I totally agree with this.

I have no control over the actions of others. So, why would I cling to what others have done as if this static spinning of my own wheels will somehow change a past event? It does me no good to wrap myself in an unchangeable past by holding a grudge or expecting something out of someone other than myself.

So, forgiveness feels like release. I feels like surrender to things I cannot control which allows me to move towards the things I can control - my own reactions, thoughts, and experiences.

Of course, forgiveness is not always an easy thing to offer and sometimes it takes some soul-searching to get to a place where I'm ready to forgive, but my goal is always forgiveness. I work very hard to let things go as quickly as possible. It only hurts me when I refuse to move on.

I believe everyone, especially myself, is imperfect. Being imperfect means mistakes will be made, feelings will get hurt, actions will occur that cannot be undone. I recognize this on a pretty deep level so I consider myself a very forgiving person.

Self-forgiveness is something else entirely. I'm a little more hard and unforgiving with myself. I expect a little more perfection (sometimes to an unreasonable degree) of myself and it's something I work on overcoming and improving. Patience is a lesson I learn time and again.

If I do hurt someone through careless words or actions, I apologize immediately. It's rare that I actually ask for forgiveness because my apologies are heartfelt and it's completely up to the other person to decide how they'd like to feel about me. Either they accept my very honest admission of fault and the dialog that always ensues or they don't. The forgiveness there is really about whether I can forgive myself for being so careless.

I do worry that people cling to this idea of forgiveness as if it's something that will set them free, as if it's something they need to give away after someone has "earned" it. I'm looking at this through my very tiny lens of the world (so I may read something in the other posts that changes my ideas on this), but forgiveness is rarely about the other person. They may ask for it, and you may grant it, but ultimately the real growth happens inside you when you truly let it go or you don't.

Horribly painful things have been done to me in the past, but I never felt compelled to hold on to it and keep hatred or spite in my heart. Those folks have their own karma to deal with. By letting go and simply removing them from my life (while wishing them compassion), I am able to grow and shed that old self to become someone that is wiser and kinder for it.

Great thread. Very thought-provoking. I'm not sure I said everything the way I intended, but I am off to read everyone else's posts!

[skeeter_01]

I believe that for each lifetime I live, I'm supposed to be learning a lesson and I'm SURE that this life time my lesson is forgiveness...forgiving others and myself..

When I have a hard time letting go of anger towards others, it ruins MY day..not theirs! They live up in this empty head of mine rent free until I'm willing to let go of my anger towards them...

When I have to forgive myself that's a whole other beast entirely...I have a tendency to let the voice of my mother come into this empty head and fill it with words that are hurtful and hateful...that's the hardest voice to get rid of...

but i'm learning....i'm learning...slowwwwwwwwly!!....LOL!!

skeet

[Isadora]

It is really hard to admit what I am not good at this mostly because of the judgmental attitudes of people who do not understand my history. Making assumptions about how or who or what I forgive or don't is also harmful to me.

I certainly understand the need to forgive. I understand the need to be at peace inside. They are not mutually exclusive. In some ways hanging onto anger or rage and using it to make changes has been the major channel for me.

As a retired social worker who worked with abused women, men and children, some things are unforgivable. Some things are unforgettable. I just want to make sure they/us are not blamed or deemed "less than" for not forgiving unspeakable horrors. My scars are literally a daily reminder of my abuse. Abuse whether mental, physical, emotional is not acceptable in any form. Forgiving it is not an option for me.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Isadora

It is really hard to admit what I am not good at this mostly because of the judgmental attitudes of people who do not understand my history. Making assumptions about how or who or what I forgive or don't is also harmful to me.

I certainly understand the need to forgive. I understand the need to be at peace inside. They are not mutually exclusive. In some ways hanging onto anger or rage and using it to make changes has been the major channel for me.

As a retired social worker who worked with abused women, men and children, some things are unforgivable. Some things are unforgettable. I just want to make sure they/us are not blamed or deemed "less than" for not forgiving unspeakable horrors. My scars are literally a daily reminder of my abuse. Abuse whether mental, physical, emotional is not acceptable in any form. Forgiving it is not an option for me.

You touch on such important issues here. We all heal differently and at various speeds. The same goes with forgiveness. Nobody should be judged for how they process their own personal hurts.

I do think, perpetuating it by taking on the "eye for an eye," can be damaging most to yourself. Which is why I need to let things go. It is damaging enough to be hurt, it is even more damaging to oneself to continue it. (for me, no judgment here).

As you know from your work. I was (not literally) one of the women who you counselled... In order for me to heal through my emotional scars of my abuse, I needed to forgive those who perpetrated them. When asked to speak publicly of my abuse and how I worked through it - when I told them part of my healing was forgiving - I was told I was wrong and in a sense giving permission back to them to repeat their abuse. That it was WRONG to forgive the abuser. For some people, this is wrong - for me, it was part of my healing.

I met a mother who forgave the man who raped and killed her daughter, at the same meeting I was at. She taught me a lot, this woman. As a mother, I do not know if I could forgive someone who harmed my children. I am not sure how she did it. But, when she spoke to me and I saw the peace in her eyes and could feel it.. I clearly understood. She also said... If she continued to be the victim of this great crime, then she would continue the abuse of her daughter. I also understood this, from my own experience.

They would continue to WIN every single moment of my life, if I carried the "victim," within me.

Julie

[Isadora]

Originally Posted by InfiniteFemme

You touch on such important issues here. We all heal differently and at various speeds. The same goes with forgiveness. Nobody should be judged for how they process their own personal hurts.

I do think, perpetuating it by taking on the "eye for an eye," can be damaging most to yourself. Which is why I need to let things go. It is damaging enough to be hurt, it is even more damaging to oneself to continue it. (for me, no judgment here).

As you know from your work. I was (not literally) one of the women who you counselled... In order for me to heal through my emotional scars of my abuse, I needed to forgive those who perpetrated them. When asked to speak publicly of my abuse and how I worked through it - when I told them part of my healing was forgiving - I was told I was wrong and in a sense giving permission back to them to repeat their abuse. That it was WRONG to forgive the abuser. For some people, this is wrong - for me, it was part of my healing.

I met a mother who forgave the man who raped and killed her daughter, at the same meeting I was at. She taught me a lot, this woman. As a mother, I do not know if I could forgive someone who harmed my children. I am not sure how she did it. But, when she spoke to me and I saw the peace in her eyes and could feel it.. I clearly understood. She also said... If she continued to be the victim of this great crime, then she would continue the abuse of her daughter. I also understood this, from my own experience.

They would continue to WIN every single moment of my life, if I carried the "victim," within me.

Julie

As I worked for many years in the field, I have helped others forgive and feel healed. I have also worked with those who can not forgive and know that they felt heard and healed in their own way.

The greatest thing about being human is that we are all so unique in our ability to heal ourselves. I am not victim. I am a survivor and I feel a wee bit shamed...that for not being a forgiving some things, I am less...this is always the vulnerable part of admitting what you can't or won't do. I do not normally believe in "eye for eye" because, fuck I would be blind. lol I certainly did not mean to come across that way. But saying this I also believe that if a man and his five buddies are fucking his 4 year old daughter it is unforgivable and imagining him in prison is a wee bit of eye for eye. 30 some years of working with incest and childhood abuse survivors has colored my perspective of forgiving. Yay for those who can, yay for those who use their hurt and anger to be better people, yay for those who just get through one day after another without nightmares.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Nat

What are your thoughts on forgiveness? What does forgiveness mean to you? What does it feel like to you? Do you have methods or rituals of forgiveness? Do you feel there are times when forgiveness is not an option? Do you forgive frequently or rarely? Do you forgive yourself? Do you seek forgiveness for things you regret? If you have kids or have young people in your life, what do/would you teach them about forgiveness? Any other thoughts on forgiveness?

I am not a very forgiving person, either for myself or for others. I give what has been referred to as 'mafia love'...you have to prove your worthy and then you are in for life until you mess up and then you are out like Project Runway.

I rarely do second chances for medium-sized goofs and never for huge ones like cheating, etc.

I think it's a great idea, though, and know that it's helped many people overcome terrible circumstances. I just haven't reached that level of maturity in this life, though.

[Mitmo01]

Originally Posted by Gemme

I am not a very forgiving person, either for myself or for others. I give what has been referred to as 'mafia love'...you have to prove your worthy and then you are in for life until you mess up and then you are out like Project Runway.

I rarely do second chances for medium-sized goofs and never for huge ones like cheating, etc.

I think it's a great idea, though, and know that it's helped many people overcome terrible circumstances. I just haven't reached that level of maturity in this life, though.

Wow I think I know exactly what your talking about here Gemme, its very weird with me Im totally like this....

Once you cross some kind of internal line with me then its over....

For me forgiveness is something I def have to work on, both giving and recieving..

when i look at the subject from an academic view its somthing entirely different than what lays next to my heart...but I strive for self examination and forgiveness is something I intrinsically know will be hard for me always...

I want to be someone who is always open to examining my actions and if I desire forgiveness for whatever it is Ive done...then I have to be able to give that as well and sometimes its so hard when my emotions are involved since im def an emotional creature...

when I think about forgiveness from a global view its a much different story..

I have been emotionally humbled by reading about the Truth and Reconcilliation Commissions in South Africa and Rwanda.I have been emotionally humbled by reading Elie Weisel and Primo Levi...and I have met in person, talked to and cried like a baby in front of Holocaust survivors when I attended various events....They allowed me to see some kind of hope or something in thier existence that has and always will strike to the core of my being..I worked with someone who escaped literally as machine guns were blazing at him from the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia and we talked about where he was from and what he went through and I remember thinking to myself that I really needed to listen to what he was telling me and absorb that for life



something about the capacity for forgiveness makes me cry like a baby as well....

That people whose lives have been destroyed and yet somehow they find it in themselves to allow that forgiveness just makes me realize how much more I have to learn about life and love...

[Hack]

I think forgiveness and the ability to forgive is a highly personal journey and experience.

For me, forgiveness is the single most liberating and cleansing thing.

I hold a grudge for about a mili-second. It takes a lot -- a lot -- to make me angry.

I'm all about doing what I can to move my life forward. Anger, grudges, etc...I see that stuff as weight holding me down. I can't accept it for myself.

[Queerasfck]

I have forgiven Jesus.

[Blade]

I pulled this from my post on a different thread, because I got a lot of feed back and we have a lot of new people since I made this post.

What Forgiveness is not
Forgiveness is not condoning unkindness
Forgiveness is not forgetting that what happened was painful
Forgiveness is not excusing poor behavior
Forgiveness is not denying or minimizing your hurt
Forgiveness does not mean reconciling with the offender
Forgiveness does not mean you give up having feelings


What is Forgiveness
Forgiveness is for you not the offender
Forgiveness is taking back your power
Forgiveness is taking responsibility for how you feel
Forgiveness is about your healing not about the person that hurt you
Forgiveness is a trainable skill just like learning to throw a ball
Forgiveness is a choice
Forgiveness is becoming the hero instead of the victim

[Ryobi]

Originally Posted by Hack

I think forgiveness and the ability to forgive is a highly personal journey and experience.

For me, forgiveness is the single most liberating and cleansing thing.

I hold a grudge for about a mili-second. It takes a lot -- a lot -- to make me angry.

I'm all about doing what I can to move my life forward. Anger, grudges, etc...I see that stuff as weight holding me down. I can't accept it for myself.

I really like this post. I feel much the same about it.

If I find myself where I need to forgive someone, I'm probably angry about it. I do have a process I go through. I try to figure out why the person did what they did. I look at myself first, then I will ask them. If they're not willing to help me in the process of forgiving them, I will move on and do what I need to do for me. (yes, the whole process is for ME) As I work through it, if I loved that person, sometimes the process is more painful than the offense. I know when I have forgiven them, I won't love them the same as I once did. I don't like that but, I can definitely deal with it. The more I love them, the longer the process takes.
I don't believe in forgive and forget. I practice forgive, forgive, and don't forget. If I'm forgiving someone, I forgive the person, I forgive the offense, and I don't forget what kind of capabilities that person has for hurting others. I won't expose myself to it again.
If I need to forgive me, I forgive myself, I forgive the offense, and I don't forget the pain I have caused people. I do some soul searching in hopes of losing some of my capabilities.

I might be back with more thoughts.

[Ryobi]

I have no judgment whether someone forgives or not. I wonder though, for the folks who don't forgive, (or can't forgive) do you expect forgiveness from others? Does it matter to you if you are forgiven or not?

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Nat

What are your thoughts on forgiveness? What does forgiveness mean to you? What does it feel like to you? Do you have methods or rituals of forgiveness? Do you feel there are times when forgiveness is not an option? Do you forgive frequently or rarely? Do you forgive yourself? Do you seek forgiveness for things you regret? If you have kids or have young people in your life, what do/would you teach them about forgiveness? Any other thoughts on forgiveness?

I'm not sure I really see forgiveness in the same way many people have expressed in this thread. For me, not forgiving someone does not mean I continue to spend all my waking hours or much time at all begrudging an act. I don't see it as some liberating act that allows you to move on from whatever wrong was done to you. There is little room for that particular word in my vocabulary, largely because I find it a useless word in my own life's context, and I'm not sure it has much use outside of a religious or spiritual context. Perhaps I am too reminded of the OE "forgyf us ure gyltas, swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum," and in a way reflects how I've always felt about forgiveness and guilt.

I can actually only think of one instance in my life that really relates to this subject. I am not a person that becomes offended by much of anything, since I see little use in feeling offended by an act or a word or a person. That would be a failure to understand the interpretation of each person's deeds or words as a part of a certain system, and I don't think any given system has any particular moral merit. If I am to be offended, we must both be operating under the same system, and my own does not recognise offense.

Most of the time when someone commits some kind of wrong against me, whether theft, backstabbing, violence or any similar act, I don't find myself thinking about forgiveness. Once the act is done, it is done, and in most cases those people have admitted to what they've done, though whether they've considered it an offense is another story. Those who have not, I haven't felt the need to begrudge, and upon realising that the act was due to some problem they were having, I've even attempted to help them overcome it, since I see more value in overcoming than blaming or forgiving. Every negative action/action that infringes upon the freedom of another that a human being commits has a cause, and often that cause is some kind of negative event that affected them, or perhaps a chemical imbalance and that person may keeping acting a certain way as long as they hold on to that negative past, negative influence or refuse to recognise their condition. Even for them, it is not about forgiving, but about overcoming that event or influence. If that person doesn't take the intiative to free themselves, then I cease to give a flying fuck. I don't forgive them because forgiveness is not an issue, but they are rarely, if ever, brought to mind, and when they are brought to mind, I won't feel any anger against them.

There is one person on this earth that is the epitome of this, and that person is my own father, who was negatively affected by his own father before him. This is why I take issue with victim/victimiser arguments, because very often victims continue to perpetuate the cycle, whether becoming aggressors themselves, or by continuing to remain stuck in the victim mentality. We are also talking about the acts themselves versus those who commit those acts, and we are also talking about placing meaning upon otherwise meaningless acts. Going back to the original OE of the Lord's Prayer, this notion of "forgiv[ing] us our guilts" seems to be like some kind of confessional of erasing the acts so that one may continue toward some good grace. Furthermore, what is it that we are forgiving? In the original OE Lord's Prayer, it is the guilt that is forgiven, which has many connotations, but largely centres around a person's own perception of a deed they themselves have committed, or which has been committed toward another.

Going back to how this affects my refusal to forgive my father, I don't think the forgiveness of some "guilty deed" works for either of us: a) because he does not admit to having ever committed any wrong against me, and b) because I don't believe in his guilt or that some moral transgression occurred, but simply that the cycle affected me negatively and that I need to overcome it.

So what else do we forgive, if not a guilt? An act? If so, my father continues to deny he was ever physically abusive toward me, and, on top of that, his family has erased the acts they witnessed over many years from their minds. As for myself, despite that very few people in my family will even recognise my childhood, I still know that my father committed these acts. Do they need to be forgiven? What is forgiveness and is what I experience even remotely related to this rather subjective and archaic term? Do I continue to be angry with or resent my father? It's hard to say if I feel anything toward him at all, and I'm not sure that I continue to hold him in low regard because of his past actions or his present actions. I know all his actions and words, both present and past, are driven by his own intense sense of insecurity, which was the result of his own father. His insecurity in the past caused him to be physically abusive towards me and toward other children, while his insecurity today causes him to refuse self-examination, education and the ability to discuss anything without becoming emotionally invested, because his false sense of pride rests on a certain notion of himself. I know his insecurities because they plagued me as a child and as a teenager and even in my early 20's. I'd been stripped of my dignity repeatedly as a child, and was mortified of being stripped of it again. But unlike him I combated it, and today he, nor his past actions are of any importance to me, though in many respects my childhood doesn't exist for me, anymore. I continue to fight some of the remaining symptoms, but the symptoms are not him, they are not his actions, they are the result of things long rendered irrelevant, that have no logical reason for continued existence. The important thing is that I continue to fight against those symptoms (rather than against the past or him), while he resigned himself to them.

I think that is why I cannot claim to "forgive" him, while he is rarely in my thoughts, rarely in my actions, rarely in my life. Because I know that in order to overcome, one needs to fight. Nothing I can ever say to him will help him with his demons, nor erase the past. I know the feeling of a thousand tons of guilt and insecurity weighing on your mind, and its enough to drive you insane. But I've also learned to break through it with a strong awareness of my own insecurities, weaknesses, strengths, of my own situation and of what got me here to begin with. It's about having the courage to face that which you're most afraid to face in yourself. I think my refusal to "forgive" (and I am still not convinced this is the right word) is my refusal to allow such a past to be an excuse for actions in the future, because if he is excused, then I am excused. I do not excuse myself, but evolve mself. What I don't "forgive" in him is the fact that he allows his past to be his future.

As such, forgiveness of myself is a non-issue. Because the result of my childhood was the incessant feeling of guilt for no particular reason, I've come to see guilt in relation to myself as a psychological symptom rather than of anything practical that needs release. I think we need to overcome our own regretable acts, rather than forgive them, since there seems to be another kind of resignation attached to that forgiveness. Again, with me there is no release attached to forgiveness, as there seems to be with others. The closest thing to a ritual I have is destroying myself and any "beliefs" I may have so as to rebuild from the bottom up; some shadow of Cartesian or Derridean evolution. As such, I don't feel I am ever the same person that I was yesterday, and so I cannot really resign to any kind of forgiveness, since there is always that element of self-improvement. I knew less yesterday than I do today, and know less today than I will tomorrow.

If I am constantly evolving then forgiveness cannot exist. Whatever my self-perceived fault was yesterday, I am ammending today.

Thanks for this topic. I really enjoyed responding as well as the opportunity to examine my own thoughts on the subject. I hope I did not relinquish to much information, since that wasn't really the intent so much as to examine a portion of myself that most relates to the subject. Thanks again for the through-provoking topic.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

I'm not sure I really see forgiveness in the same way many people have expressed in this thread. For me, not forgiving someone does not mean I continue to spend all my waking hours or much time at all begrudging an act. I don't see it as some liberating act that allows you to move on from whatever wrong was done to you. There is little room for that particular word in my vocabulary, largely because I find it a useless word in my own life's context, and I'm not sure it has much use outside of a religious or spiritual context. Perhaps I am too reminded of the OE "forgyf us ure gyltas, swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum," and in a way reflects how I've always felt about forgiveness and guilt.

I can actually only think of one instance in my life that really relates to this subject. I am not a person that becomes offended by much of anything, since I see little use in feeling offended by an act or a word or a person. That would be a failure to understand the interpretation of each person's deeds or words as a part of a certain system, and I don't think any given system has any particular moral merit. If I am to be offended, we must both be operating under the same system, and my own does not recognise offense.

Most of the time when someone commits some kind of wrong against me, whether theft, backstabbing, violence or any similar act, I don't find myself thinking about forgiveness. Once the act is done, it is done, and in most cases those people have admitted to what they've done, though whether they've considered it an offense is another story. Those who have not, I haven't felt the need to begrudge, and upon realising that the act was due to some problem they were having, I've even attempted to help them overcome it, since I see more value in overcoming than blaming or forgiving. Every negative action/action that infringes upon the freedom of another that a human being commits has a cause, and often that cause is some kind of negative event that affected them, or perhaps a chemical imbalance and that person may keeping acting a certain way as long as they hold on to that negative past, negative influence or refuse to recognise their condition. Even for them, it is not about forgiving, but about overcoming that event or influence. If that person doesn't take the intiative to free themselves, then I cease to give a flying fuck. I don't forgive them because forgiveness is not an issue, but they are rarely, if ever, brought to mind, and when they are brought to mind, I won't feel any anger against them.

There is one person on this earth that is the epitome of this, and that person is my own father, who was negatively affected by his own father before him. This is why I take issue with victim/victimiser arguments, because very often victims continue to perpetuate the cycle, whether becoming aggressors themselves, or by continuing to remain stuck in the victim mentality. We are also talking about the acts themselves versus those who commit those acts, and we are also talking about placing meaning upon otherwise meaningless acts. Going back to the original OE of the Lord's Prayer, this notion of "forgiv[ing] us our guilts" seems to be like some kind of confessional of erasing the acts so that one may continue toward some good grace. Furthermore, what is it that we are forgiving? In the original OE Lord's Prayer, it is the guilt that is forgiven, which has many connotations, but largely centres around a person's own perception of a deed they themselves have committed, or which has been committed toward another.

Going back to how this affects my refusal to forgive my father, I don't think the forgiveness of some "guilty deed" works for either of us: a) because he does not admit to having ever committed any wrong against me, and b) because I don't believe in his guilt or that some moral transgression occurred, but simply that the cycle affected me negatively and that I need to overcome it.

So what else do we forgive, if not a guilt? An act? If so, my father continues to deny he was ever physically abusive toward me, and, on top of that, his family has erased the acts they witnessed over many years from their minds. As for myself, despite that very few people in my family will even recognise my childhood, I still know that my father committed these acts. Do they need to be forgiven? What is forgiveness and is what I experience even remotely related to this rather subjective and archaic term? Do I continue to be angry with or resent my father? It's hard to say if I feel anything toward him at all, and I'm not sure that I continue to hold him in low regard because of his past actions or his present actions. I know all his actions and words, both present and past, are driven by his own intense sense of insecurity, which was the result of his own father. His insecurity in the past caused him to be physically abusive towards me and toward other children, while his insecurity today causes him to refuse self-examination, education and the ability to discuss anything without becoming emotionally invested, because his false sense of pride rests on a certain notion of himself. I know his insecurities because they plagued me as a child and as a teenager and even in my early 20's. I'd been stripped of my dignity repeatedly as a child, and was mortified of being stripped of it again. But unlike him I combated it, and today he, nor his past actions are of any importance to me, though in many respects my childhood doesn't exist for me, anymore. I continue to fight some of the remaining symptoms, but the symptoms are not him, they are not his actions, they are the result of things long rendered irrelevant, that have no logical reason for continued existence. The important thing is that I continue to fight against those symptoms (rather than against the past or him), while he resigned himself to them.

I think that is why I cannot claim to "forgive" him, while he is rarely in my thoughts, rarely in my actions, rarely in my life. Because I know that in order to overcome, one needs to fight. Nothing I can ever say to him will help him with his demons, nor erase the past. I know the feeling of a thousand tons of guilt and insecurity weighing on your mind, and its enough to drive you insane. But I've also learned to break through it with a strong awareness of my own insecurities, weaknesses, strengths, of my own situation and of what got me here to begin with. It's about having the courage to face that which you're most afraid to face in yourself. I think my refusal to "forgive" (and I am still not convinced this is the right word) is my refusal to allow such a past to be an excuse for actions in the future, because if he is excused, then I am excused. I do not excuse myself, but evolve mself. What I don't "forgive" in him is the fact that he allows his past to be his future.

As such, forgiveness of myself is a non-issue. Because the result of my childhood was the incessant feeling of guilt for no particular reason, I've come to see guilt in relation to myself as a psychological symptom rather than of anything practical that needs release. I think we need to overcome our own regretable acts, rather than forgive them, since there seems to be another kind of resignation attached to that forgiveness. Again, with me there is no release attached to forgiveness, as there seems to be with others. The closest thing to a ritual I have is destroying myself and any "beliefs" I may have so as to rebuild from the bottom up; some shadow of Cartesian or Derridean evolution. As such, I don't feel I am ever the same person that I was yesterday, and so I cannot really resign to any kind of forgiveness, since there is always that element of self-improvement. I knew less yesterday than I do today, and know less today than I will tomorrow.

If I am constantly evolving then forgiveness cannot exist. Whatever my self-perceived fault was yesterday, I am ammending today.

Thanks for this topic. I really enjoyed responding as well as the opportunity to examine my own thoughts on the subject. I hope I did not relinquish to much information, since that wasn't really the intent so much as to examine a portion of myself that most relates to the subject. Thanks again for the through-provoking topic.

Lots here to ponder!

One area that I want to comment on is about victimization and perpetuation of abuse. The big problem here is that there are just no reliable studies based upon scientific method to demonstrate any relationship of victims as perps other than those that have been reported and prosecuted.

So, what about all of the people that were indeed abused (in various ways) and do not offend? We have no way of knowing what these numbers really are. There are anecdotal reports, but, that just doesn't give us much to go on.

What is sad about this to me is not having any kind of data to study how and why many victims of abuse do not fit the common belief structures of once a victim, then an offender. They do not go on to offend.

I was raised myself by parents that were abused and did not offend. In fact, something that was true of them was an uncanny sense of picking up on threats of abuse by others around myself and my siblings along with fierce protectiveness. In fact, I really listen to people I know with abuse histories in terms of their clueing in on a perpetrator. If they say something is creepy about someone, I take note. What are the differences in how these people navigate in the world and what is behind their ability to transcend the common stereotype of the abuse cycle? This is a big missing link!

I often think about what are the adaptive traits of someone that has an abuse history and does not offend? What is it about their nature that has provided them with the ability to see that they have choices about behavior?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Lots here to ponder!

One area that I want to comment on is about victimization and perpetuation of abuse. The big problem here is that there are just no reliable studies based upon scientific method to demonstrate any relationship of victims as perps other than those that have been reported and prosecuted.

So, what about all of the people that were indeed abused (in various ways) and do not offend? We have no way of knowing what these numbers really are. There are anecdotal reports, but, that just doesn't give us much to go on.

What is sad about this to me is not having any kind of data to study how and why many victims of abuse do not fit the common belief structures of once a victim, then an offender. They do not go on to offend.

I was raised myself by parents that were abused and did not offend. In fact, something that was true of them was an uncanny sense of picking up on threats of abuse by others around myself and my siblings along with fierce protectiveness. In fact, I really listen to people I know with abuse histories in terms of their clueing in on a perpetrator. If they say something is creepy about someone, I take note. What are the differences in how these people navigate in the world and what is behind their ability to transcend the common stereotype of the abuse cycle? This is a big missing link!

I often think about what are the adaptive traits of someone that has an abuse history and does not offend? What is it about their nature that has provided them with the ability to see that they have choices about behavior?

For me, I made some hard choices. Even as a child I knew I did not want to have children...just in case.

My goal in life is to be as different from my abuser as I can be. Thank you for saying what you did because many of us make it our life's goal to be different, to break the cycle.

We know when someone creeps us out...we know the signs. Sometimes when we are weak we might get involved with an abuser again, but we somehow manage to survive it and get out as quickly as possible.

We are survivors. We have faced our worst fear and survived and that we survived does not mean we are bound to repeat the cycle.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Lots here to ponder!

One area that I want to comment on is about victimization and perpetuation of abuse. The big problem here is that there are just no reliable studies based upon scientific method to demonstrate any relationship of victims as perps other than those that have been reported and prosecuted.

So, what about all of the people that were indeed abused (in various ways) and do not offend? We have no way of knowing what these numbers really are. There are anecdotal reports, but, that just doesn't give us much to go on.

What is sad about this to me is not having any kind of data to study how and why many victims of abuse do not fit the common belief structures of once a victim, then an offender. They do not go on to offend.

I was raised myself by parents that were abused and did not offend. In fact, something that was true of them was an uncanny sense of picking up on threats of abuse by others around myself and my siblings along with fierce protectiveness. In fact, I really listen to people I know with abuse histories in terms of their clueing in on a perpetrator. If they say something is creepy about someone, I take note. What are the differences in how these people navigate in the world and what is behind their ability to transcend the common stereotype of the abuse cycle? This is a big missing link!

I often think about what are the adaptive traits of someone that has an abuse history and does not offend? What is it about their nature that has provided them with the ability to see that they have choices about behavior?

I just wanted to interject and say that I did not limit the effects of abuse to victims becoming abusers themselves. I mentioned both sides of the coin as far as perpetuating the cycle: becoming abusers and remaining victims. While some who were abused take on the role of abusers, others remain in a state where they constantly consider themselves either as victims (actually, I would argue that many who become abusers become as such because they continue to see themselve as victims, and that is part of what they feel excuses their behaviour) or not worthy of anything beyond abuse. Both are equally dangerous, in my opinion. This does not necessarily mean that they enter into physically abusive (or even psychologically abusive) relationships, but affects how they go about their daily life and interact with others despite that this may never lead to being the victims of criminal offense or the perpetrators of criminal offense. I know one woman who was bullied as a child, and who appears to seek to recreate her high school/elementary school life, but with herself in the place of those who bullied her. She does not break any laws, but literally mimicks the same behaviour that alienated her from her peers. I don't think, at that point, it becomes about forgiving those bullies, but about coming to terms with what she endured, leaving behind her insecurities and taking control of her own life, instead of allowing past events to dictate it. However, I recognise that this, to anyone reading my post, would simply be hearsay as we can all say "I know something that blah blah blah," so I'll leave it at that.

You're correct that there are little to no studies regarding those who have not come into contact with the law, but, if I recall correctly, there have been numerous studies done linking victims of abuse to certain psychological disorders that later cause them to commit acts that may or may not be punished by law. I know that there are studies regarding how traumatic childhood events are linked to triggering hereditary forms of depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia among others that would have otherwise remained untriggered. How much this plays into continuing the cycle, I do not know.

I agree that there are many out there who do take control of their behaviour, and, therefore, their future. I think you pose a very good question though, about what it is that causes a person to see that they have a choice as far as how they choose to behave after the fact. I'm not sure I can really answer what exactly it is that causes a person to reflect, and therefore, choose to break a certain cycle. I think a big part of it is breaking out of the mentality that one is a victim, and into the understanding that one does have control. I'm at a loss as to what the missing puzzle piece is.

In other words, I think that experiencing abuse can result in an individual who either becomes an abuser him/herself and/or continues to consider him/herself a victim, and/or continues to consider him/herself worthless after the fact, or merely someone who is negatively affected by past abuse within their daily life, given the presence of a certain combination of factors...I remain at a loss as to what those factors are, or even what factors result in someone who manages to reflect and take control of their own behaviour. Very good, question, though. I'll think about it some more and try to add something later.

[Sam]

alot of great posts.

i dont usually forgive after betrayal.

but that is just me.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

I just wanted to interject and say that I did not limit the effects of abuse to victims becoming abusers themselves. I mentioned both sides of the coin as far as perpetuating the cycle: becoming abusers and remaining victims. While some who were abused take on the role of abusers, others remain in a state where they constantly consider themselves either as victims (actually, I would argue that many who become abusers become as such because they continue to see themselve as victims, and that is part of what they feel excuses their behaviour) or not worthy of anything beyond abuse. Both are equally dangerous, in my opinion. This does not necessarily mean that they enter into physically abusive (or even psychologically abusive) relationships, but affects how they go about their daily life and interact with others despite that this may never lead to being the victims of criminal offense or the perpetrators of criminal offense. I know one woman who was bullied as a child, and who appears to seek to recreate her high school/elementary school life, but with herself in the place of those who bullied her. She does not break any laws, but literally mimicks the same behaviour that alienated her from her peers. I don't think, at that point, it becomes about forgiving those bullies, but about coming to terms with what she endured, leaving behind her insecurities and taking control of her own life, instead of allowing past events to dictate it. However, I recognise that this, to anyone reading my post, would simply be hearsay as we can all say "I know something that blah blah blah," so I'll leave it at that.

You're correct that there are little to no studies regarding those who have not come into contact with the law, but, if I recall correctly, there have been numerous studies done linking victims of abuse to certain psychological disorders that later cause them to commit acts that may or may not be punished by law. I know that there are studies regarding how traumatic childhood events are linked to triggering hereditary forms of depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia among others that would have otherwise remained untriggered. How much this plays into continuing the cycle, I do not know.

I agree that there are many out there who do take control of their behaviour, and, therefore, their future. I think you pose a very good question though, about what it is that causes a person to see that they have a choice as far as how they choose to behave after the fact. I'm not sure I can really answer what exactly it is that causes a person to reflect, and therefore, choose to break a certain cycle. I think a big part of it is breaking out of the mentality that one is a victim, and into the understanding that one does have control. I'm at a loss as to what the missing puzzle piece is.

In other words, I think that experiencing abuse can result in an individual who either becomes an abuser him/herself and/or continues to consider him/herself a victim, and/or continues to consider him/herself worthless after the fact, or merely someone who is negatively affected by past abuse within their daily life, given the presence of a certain combination of factors...I remain at a loss as to what those factors are, or even what factors result in someone who manages to reflect and take control of their own behaviour. Very good, question, though. I'll think about it some more and try to add something later.

Oh yes- victims of abuse and personality disorders and an array of psychological problems can exist. Studies do demonstrate this, but, to generalize this might be a mistake. We all have different ways of adapting and coping with things that have happened to us. There could be real differences in how class, race, ethnicity and gender mix in all of this, too.
Not to mention the development of learned helplessness that can keep us from breaking feelings of remaining a victim.

One of the things I really like about the 3rd/4th wave feminist character (Lisbeth Salander) in Larsson's Millennium Trilogy is how she transcends her victimization, and not simply survives, but indeed, gets even! Now, in real-life, some of her tactics would just land her in prison and rightfully so- but her perpetrators certainly did not serve time for their abuse. I'm thinking more about her personality development in terms of knowing she does not have to remain under the control of her abusers. Sort of interesting that Larsson wrote these books as the result of witnessing a gang rape of a woman when he was 15 years old (which left him deeply concerned with the horrors of sexual violence against both women and men- the original title of the forst book in the trilogy was "Men Who Hate Women" which was changed to "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" - probably a marketing thing...).

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Ryobi

I have no judgment whether someone forgives or not. I wonder though, for the folks who don't forgive, (or can't forgive) do you expect forgiveness from others? Does it matter to you if you are forgiven or not?

Nope. I don't expect what I can't or won't give. It might be nice to hear 'you are forgiven' from someone I felt I wronged, but it wouldn't be FOR me, so I can't really say that it matters to me if someone forgives me or not. If someone forgives me for a wrong I did, then that is good for them. It's to help them, not me.

Originally Posted by Isadora

See and here is my issue. I fail to see not forgiving as negative. As out of balance. As stopping growth. I think I am a wonderfully amazing positive person. This is hurting me too much, I am going to bow out of this.

I wish you wouldn't. Your view is not a singular one.

I don't forgive and I really don't think it's hindered me overall. Sure, I could probably be a bit more zen-like if I forgave more but I'm okay. Some days, great. And that is good enough for me. It's all about what we need, individually, to get through, isn't it?

Originally Posted by IrishGrrl

Isa, I"m with you on your feelings. I dont really see non forgivness as a negative either. I think there CAN be times when it will negativly impact you, but for me, my anger, rage, sadness, outrage has also spurred me on to great things. In a way it is the fire that feeds me at times. I dont think I would have survived without it, and it's now my dear close ally and friend, who is always there to give me strength when I dont feel I have any left.
The way I balance it all is, that I forgive what I can, and make no excuses or feel an ounce of guilt for what I cannot. Forgiveness is personal for me, and a private thing. I do not judge others on thier abilities to forgive or not. And I cant stand and wont listen long to someone preaching to me how I "NEED" to forgive.

The fire that feeds...indeed. I've written the best prose and created the most fantastic art when I was mad as a wet hen at someone.

True story.