Forgiveness

[Nat]

These are some really wonderful posts and I'm so excited so far to read them. (I bet there will be more before I get to post this too).

I think maybe forgiveness is one of those words where many people have different definitions and experiences, so I really deeply appreciate the specificity of these posts.

I grew up in a world with a father who brought mountains of pain to me and my family. I grew up in a world with a mother who never seemed to forgive me for any slight misstep. And in that scenario, when I say she didn't forgive me, it means that she held onto resentment for things I'd done from a very young age, that she held onto her anger, that she acted like a put-upon martyr where I was cause of her distress. Though she managed her anger well, it was palpable and though she would eventually let things drop, she never really let go of the anger - it just seemed to go down to a simmer until the next time she thought to bring it up. She never said things like, "don't worry about it, I know you didn't mean to do such-and-such" or things like that. She would just turn to stone toward me and offer me no comfort, understanding or acceptance - or even just a marker of "let's put all that behind us now and start afresh." Believe it or not, I was a very well-behaved kid to begin with. I feel bad saying all that because I truly adore my mom and think she was and is a great mom in a whole lot of ways. She was a single mom, struggling with little help, and she was younger than I am now when she did most of that stuff. Over the years, I think she's gotten way better at this stuff - I do feel that she forgives me now for my flaws and mistakes. I think probably she's forgiven me for most of my childhood missteps too - she just never let me know.

Anyway, all that and I've never been sure what exactly forgiveness is supposed to be. When I was younger and probably still to this day, I tended to excuse people rather than forgive them. I would try to understand what their experiences were, why they behaved the way they did, and then just excuse their behavior as part of their personality or programming. *

I didn't know what forgiveness even was, and I'm not sure I do now either. I think about it kind of a lot, but without a really good model for it, it's mainly guesswork.

I have heard that not forgiving a person really hurts you more than the other person, and I think that's true. *There's this meditation that I do, where I imagine the people I'm upset with dissolving into light. It feels like just letting go. Is that forgiveness?

I think maybe forgiveness is a combination of accepting the past and just letting go of anger and resentment. I think of it as a self-healing thing, but I also think there are times when it really can help another person move on to let them know you have forgiven them. *There are some people, however, that although I may forgive them, I would no more invite them back into my life than have a picnic on a fire ant mound. I don't think forgiveness has to mean re-inclusion into one's life if a person has patterns of toxicity and damage. I am grateful to those who have forgiven me for the times when I have erred and for the times when my toxicity levels were at their highest. I think also for big things, forgiveness is a long process. *When I do this meditation, sometimes the same people show up over and over again. And I just try to let go of the resentment all over again.

I tend to be harshest on myself - I find it the most difficult to let go of my own resentments toward myself over past actions and inactions. I'm trying to get better with that. I'm trying to get to a place where I accept all people - including me - are human and we all make mistakes sometimes. I think just accepting a certain amount of leeway in human behavior probably helps. And maybe part of what helps me let go of resentments is knowing how comforting it would be to know that those who hold resentments toward me might do the same. I'm not talking about quid pro quo but more like the golden rule.

As far as religion goes, I think a lot of religions do encourage forgiveness, and there may be a spiritual element in it for those of faith, but forgiveness is probably pretty useful sociologically in order to maintain diplomatic group relationships and I think it's probably pretty helpful psychologically for oneself.

A note on what forgiveness isn't: I don't think forgiveness means what happened was okay or right. I don't think it means you have to remove a necessary boundary between you and another person - unless you decide you want to remove the boundary and you no longer find it necessary. I don't think it means that damage didn't occur. I don't think you have to tell another person you've forgiven them if doing so would re-establish connections you don't want to re-establish. *I think it's just one of those things that makes life a little more livable inside one's own existence.

I say all that, but I'm still not sure what forgiveness really means or feels like to other people. I'm really enjoying the other responses here because I feel like there may be opportunity for me to better understand what it is for everybody else.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Nat

These are some really wonderful posts and I'm so excited so far to read them. (I bet there will be more before I get to post this too).

I think maybe forgiveness is one of those words where many people have different definitions and experiences, so I really deeply appreciate the specificity of these posts.

I grew up in a world with a father who brought mountains of pain to me and my family. I grew up in a world with a mother who never seemed to forgive me for any slight misstep. And in that scenario, when I say she didn't forgive me, it means that she held onto resentment for things I'd done from a very young age, that she held onto her anger, that she acted like a put-upon martyr where I was cause of her distress. Though she managed her anger well, it was palpable and though she would eventually let things drop, she never really let go of the anger - it just seemed to go down to a simmer until the next time she thought to bring it up. She never said things like, "don't worry about it, I know you didn't mean to do such-and-such" or things like that. She would just turn to stone toward me and offer me no comfort, understanding or acceptance - or even just a marker of "let's put all that behind us now and start afresh." Believe it or not, I was a very well-behaved kid to begin with. I feel bad saying all that because I truly adore my mom and think she was and is a great mom in a whole lot of ways. She was a single mom, struggling with little help, and she was younger than I am now when she did most of that stuff. Over the years, I think she's gotten way better at this stuff - I do feel that she forgives me now for my flaws and mistakes. I think probably she's forgiven me for most of my childhood missteps too - she just never let me know.

Anyway, all that and I've never been sure what exactly forgiveness is supposed to be. When I was younger and probably still to this day, I tended to excuse people rather than forgive them. I would try to understand what their experiences were, why they behaved the way they did, and then just excuse their behavior as part of their personality or programming. *

I didn't know what forgiveness even was, and I'm not sure I do now either. I think about it kind of a lot, but without a really good model for it, it's mainly guesswork.

I have heard that not forgiving a person really hurts you more than the other person, and I think that's true. *There's this meditation that I do, where I imagine the people I'm upset with dissolving into light. It feels like just letting go. Is that forgiveness?

I think maybe forgiveness is a combination of accepting the past and just letting go of anger and resentment. I think of it as a self-healing thing, but I also think there are times when it really can help another person move on to let them know you have forgiven them. *There are some people, however, that although I may forgive them, I would no more invite them back into my life than have a picnic on a fire ant mound. I don't think forgiveness has to mean re-inclusion into one's life if a person has patterns of toxicity and damage. I am grateful to those who have forgiven me for the times when I have erred and for the times when my toxicity levels were at their highest. I think also for big things, forgiveness is a long process. *When I do this meditation, sometimes the same people show up over and over again. And I just try to let go of the resentment all over again.

I tend to be harshest on myself - I find it the most difficult to let go of my own resentments toward myself over past actions and inactions. I'm trying to get better with that. I'm trying to get to a place where I accept all people - including me - are human and we all make mistakes sometimes. I think just accepting a certain amount of leeway in human behavior probably helps. And maybe part of what helps me let go of resentments is knowing how comforting it would be to know that those who hold resentments toward me might do the same. I'm not talking about quid pro quo but more like the golden rule.

As far as religion goes, I think a lot of religions do encourage forgiveness, and there may be a spiritual element in it for those of faith, but forgiveness is probably pretty useful sociologically in order to maintain diplomatic group relationships and I think it's probably pretty helpful psychologically for oneself.

A note on what forgiveness isn't: I don't think forgiveness means what happened was okay or right. I don't think it means you have to remove a necessary boundary between you and another person - unless you decide you want to remove the boundary and you no longer find it necessary. I don't think it means that damage didn't occur. I don't think you have to tell another person you've forgiven them if doing so would re-establish connections you don't want to re-establish. *I think it's just one of those things that makes life a little more livable inside one's own existence.

I say all that, but I'm still not sure what forgiveness really means or feels like to other people. I'm really enjoying the other responses here because I feel like there may be opportunity for me to better understand what it is for everybody else.

You have brought up a lot of good points here. Asking for forgiveness to me is taking responsibility and letting someone know I was responsible. Giving forgiveness does not mean I have to interact with that person at all. With those I love I am very forgiving. There is an endless supply of love. To forgive someone means I have to care about them on some level. It does to me mean that I want them in my life. Appropriate boundaries are so important as you mentioned. Just because you forgive someone does not mean that you have to bring them close again. Sometimes people don't understand that.

[IrishGrrl]

On self forgiveness. That is also the hardest for me personally. Even when my head knows I had a reason. Maybe not even a good one, but a legit reason.(to me) Sort of like cause and effect. There was a cause, my action was the effect. I am not equating the cause as an excuse however. That was really hard to differentiate. Still can be. When looking at my own behavior, I try to first figure out the "why". When I figure that out, I can follow the path, and usually see how I allowed myself the behavior. It does not however mean that my behavior was acceptable. It never is. But seeing the "why" helps me not repeat the behavior again. It helps me put a flag on it, so when the "why" comes up again, I can say to myself, ok, here's this situation again, now lets have a different outcome concerning my behavior. It's how I hold myself accountable. There are things in my life that I am ashamed of, most of them done before I turned 18. Even though I was young, and had little knowledge of self, I still dont feel as though I can give myself a pass. I think not forgiving yourself leads to not loving yourself. Yep. and that's as far as it goes for me, I"m not at the self forgiveness stage yet. Therefore, while I love myself as a whole, there are parts that I do not love.

[julieisafemme]

Here is a good overview of The Sunflower and the questions it raises.

http://www.ilperetz.org/graduates/daniel_bish.htm

[Kobi]

What an interesting topic.

I have said for many years that "people are patterns of behavior". If you can see the patterns, you see the person. As such you can identify the steadfast from the wishy washy, the intuned from the oblivious, the anchors from the tide, the rainy day friends from the sunshine only folks etc.

As I have gotten older, this has served me well in choosing people I invite into my life and those I keep at arms length. As such, people tend to disappoint me less, which in turn means I have less need to forgive them as I didnt expect them to do such and such anyway.

Forgiveness tho, for me, is reserved for those rare occasions where the tried and true in my life disappoint me. Some transgressions are easily forgiven and forgotten. Some are not.

For me, forgiveness means I see myself and others as imperfect beings who will make mistakes. There are intentional mistakes and unintentional mistakes. An unintentional mistake will be forgiven meaning I accept an honest apology which recognizes a mistake AND we can move on with a greater understanding and respect for one another. These types of events tend to bring people closer.

Sometimes people dont understand why or how they hurt us or disappointed us. Their willingness to engage in a discussion about something and be open to listening is a huge plus for helping to deepen friendships and relationships.

For me, forgiveness, is a feeling of compassion for myself or another, an understanding which defies words. It is a gut feeling emanating from your soul that touches anothers spirit.

Intentional mistakes are not forgiven or forgotten meaning there will be definate changes in our interactions. Examples of intentional mistakes:

1. cheating on me, a friend of mine, or a member of my family.

2. lying in any way, shape or form. There are no small lies. Lying undermines trust which is the foundation of any type of relationship.

3. deceit in any way, shape or form that may not even involve me personally

4. taking advantage of those unable to protect themselves

These are intentional types of behavior for which there is no acceptable explanation. They are types of behavior which are designed to inflict pain, intentionally, on others. This is not acceptable behavior nor is it forgiveable behavior regardless of the reasons for it. Even if it is not done to me, it colors my perception of the person, and makes me wary of them and their motivations.

Intentional behavior will result in a huge change in our interactions simply because this type of behavior brings strife into my life. Life comes with enough strife without my "pals" bringing me even more.

I always thought I would become more mellow as I aged. I havent found that to be the case. I see myself as more judgemental than I was when I was younger or am I just more discerning? I am less open to new things and ideas or are they just the same things and ideas with a different spin on them? I am more guarded with my time and energy...well that just because there isnt much to spare. Maybe I'm just not old enough yet?

[PearlsNLace]

Oh, im headin out the door to see the sunset, but I dont want to loose this thread.

*Subscribing*

Fantastic, well timed topic!

[girl_dee]

In general, how would you forgive someone who is not remorseful? This is where forgiveness is granted or not granted for me.

[~ocean]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

In general, how would you forgive someone who is not remorseful? This is where forgiveness is granted or not granted for me.

forgiveness always was a personal ending to a sensitive subject with someone :either special or just a social situation.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by ~ocean

forgiveness always was a personal ending to a sensitive subject with someone :either special or just a social situation.

i am not sure it would be an ending though.

[homoe]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

In general, how would you forgive someone who is not remorseful? This is where forgiveness is granted or not granted for me.

I am a Cancer we can forgive BUT we NEVER forget................

[~ocean]

Originally Posted by homoe

I am a Cancer we can forgive BUT we NEVER forget................

yada yada so u took your ginko.....lol

[candy_coated_bitch]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

In general, how would you forgive someone who is not remorseful? This is where forgiveness is granted or not granted for me.

There are people who have been in my life, abusers for example, that I feel no need to forgive. Ever. I know it's healing for some but I don't see a point in making a huge deal expending energy forgiving them

As far as lesser transgressions I think for me whether or not a person is remorseful also counts with me. If a person has no remorse I am most likely just going to move on with my life and not look back. If it's something really small I may not move on from that person but hearing an I'm sorry is always nice.

[Chad]

For me forgiveness is directly connected to the offense. If it is a great offense directed to me specifically then I would rather not have that person in my life so there would be no forgiveness.

If someone that I love and respect makes a mistake and I am indirectly affected then I would most likely forgive them.

Remorse does matter but some actions are unforgivable.