Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[Martina]

i am not talking about the circumstances of a man's life or making generalizations about how much he may get out of his privilege.

i may not KNOW that i am interacting with a transman. i do know i am interacting with a man. And if he is careless about the way he handles his privilege, he will do harm. i do not like to hear anyone denying that responsibility. It's not all about the transmen's personal experience or how educated a cis-gender person should be ideally.

The fact is that in the office or sitting in a classroom, a man interacting with a woman has a responsibility to be aware of male privilege and how that can disempower her.

[Jaques]

I have witnessed women disempowering men and reducing them to tears....................its quite common

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Jaques

I have witnessed women disempowering men and reducing them to tears....................its quite common

*grabbing a chair*

popcorn anyone?

[asphaltcowboi]

just adding my thoughts, im male id butch.. my bigest fear is being discovered in public i have a responsiablity to my self and to the public not to let that happen. i do not feel its a privlage to use the mens room.. it is usually filthy an stinky its chancy to be discovered there,alot of times the only alternative is the parking lot. if i am discovered in public to be female born it causes a ruckus (if not a fist fight) to the point i would have to excuse myself from a date/dinner/dance/conversation or in any situation i may be in just being myself. i think any privlage has been worked hard for and would never intentionaly be abused. t/g male id butchs usually walk softly as not to disturbe the general public.. at least for me its like that. i do not feel in any way that any privlage is larger then what it takes to live as i feel i was born to live ftm/tg/male id
just my own feeling.

[Jaques]

Originally Posted by Jaques

I have witnessed women disempowering men and reducing them to tears....................its quite common

Thank you blade..................it happens...........GJ

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Jaques

Thank you blade..................it happens...........GJ

Uhh, yeah. So I suppose whenever we talk about violence against women we also need to remind everyone that sometimes women assault men? And there have been at least three cases of women raping men!

Forgive my sarcasm, but am I the only person who can't help taking this bait?

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Uhh, yeah. So I suppose whenever we talk about violence against women we also need to remind everyone that sometimes women assault men? And there have been at least three cases of women raping men!

Forgive my sarcasm, but am I the only person who can't help taking this bait?

I think you might be.

And I mean no disrespect in saying that. I also mean no disrespect to Jacques when I say that I, personally, couldn't find it in myself to dignify it with a response.

It's apples and oranges.

I also don't mean to minimize the reality of abuse perpetrated on men by women, but it's not even conscionable that one would could offer that up as some sort of excuse or retort to the real and persistent issue of men disrespecting, abusing, and/or devaluing women.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Thinker

I think you might be.

And I mean no disrespect in saying that. I also mean no disrespect to Jacques when I say that I, personally, couldn't find it in myself to dignify it with a response.

It's apples and oranges.

I also don't mean to minimize the reality of abuse perpetrated on men by women, but it's not even conscionable that one would could offer that up as some sort of excuse or retort to the real and persistent issue of men disrespecting, abusing, and/or devaluing women.

You're right. I should have known better than to respond when I saw that the poster felt compelled to repost the remark after nobody responded the first time. I won't fall for it again.

[Jaques]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

You're right. I should have known better than to respond when I saw that the poster felt compelled to repost the remark after nobody responded the first time. I won't fall for it again.

I didnt feel compelled to repost, just thanking Blade for the response......

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Thinker

I think you might be.

And I mean no disrespect in saying that. I also mean no disrespect to Jacques when I say that I, personally, couldn't find it in myself to dignify it with a response.

It's apples and oranges.

I also don't mean to minimize the reality of abuse perpetrated on men by women, but it's not even conscionable that one would could offer that up as some sort of excuse or retort to the real and persistent issue of men disrespecting, abusing, and/or devaluing women.

^This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the post/repost as well. To me those kinds of comments also throw a stick in the spokes when it comes to communicating concerns to each other. Kind of like going backward rather than forward.

[Martina]

Isn't male privilege useful FOR speaking up when sexist remarks are made? i know this is a trans thread. i am not sure i can do any good by speaking here. i have been asked questions and then criticized for coming in here at all. My responses have been characterized as finger wagging and as shouting down. i can't really productively engage with that.

Thinker and Ender, it's not about how i feel about the lives of transmen. Of course, i must take responsibility for cis-privilege. And it's not, imo, about what goes on here on this thread or on this site. I am not trying to silence anyone here or anywhere.

I restate my point, that in the world, men who are not aware of male privilege, do harm. i hope that all men take responsibility for that unequivocally. i do not think that requests for exemptions, if that is what i am hearing, make any sense in real world situations.

i have no control over any one else's behavior. i do not want it. i do know that the more often i am told that my concern with the harm that male privilege can do should not be a priority, the less likely i am to hear others' concerns also. Male privilege is a safety issue for me.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

^This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the post/repost as well. To me those kinds of comments also throw a stick in the spokes when it comes to communicating concerns to each other. Kind of like going backward rather than forward.

Exactly. The bolded statement especially.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Uhh, yeah. So I suppose whenever we talk about violence against women we also need to remind everyone that sometimes women assault men? And there have been at least three cases of women raping men!

Forgive my sarcasm, but am I the only person who can't help taking this bait?

I've found this users' posts, frankly, ridiculous and largely lacking in content and relevance. I thought by intent, and so not worth comment.

I guess that means I didn't take the bait.

[Corkey]

I'm with Bent and Thinker, it wasn't a question of it being right, it was in My view point a statement minus facts.

[HerDaddy]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I'm with Bent and Thinker

Is this because your a coward? You cant think for yourself? I'm just curious, a few pages back you literally ran over Mike for his opinions. But now you agree with one transman, and another she butch.

I'm sorry i'm just confused. You are a she butch. Taking any type of male hormone such as T doesnt make you male ID Butch or ftm.

I'm still reading, but its better to have or form your own opinions, than being a follower.

[Jaques]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Uhh, yeah. So I suppose whenever we talk about violence against women we also need to remind everyone that sometimes women assault men? And there have been at least three cases of women raping men!

Forgive my sarcasm, but am I the only person who can't help taking this bait?

sarcasm forgiven - and there was no bait to take, i never mentioned assault or rape

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Martina

i am not talking about the circumstances of a man's life or making generalizations about how much he may get out of his privilege.

i may not KNOW that i am interacting with a transman. i do know i am interacting with a man. And if he is careless about the way he handles his privilege, he will do harm. i do not like to hear anyone denying that responsibility. It's not all about the transmen's personal experience or how educated a cis-gender person should be ideally.

The fact is that in the office or sitting in a classroom, a man interacting with a woman has a responsibility to be aware of male privilege and how that can disempower her.

Ok, well I wasn't going to respond because I have this feeling of going in circles, and figured we might as well stop before one of us drops down dizzy. But hey, who doesn't like a good headrush?

I highlighted in my last post why I was taking issue with yours and other posts and the way you were using male privilege in conjunction with transmen or non-biological (though I'm finding myself even taking issue with this term of description) male identities. But upon further consideration what truly does not sit well with me is both the absolutism of your words (and as far as I'm concerned, no situation can be absolute, and it takes more effort to keep that absolutist view in place than realise that most colours are the result of the mixtures of mixtures, if that makes sense), in addition to your statement that the presence of privilege in your hypothetical setting (interesting that you should call my examples of why many transmen may not have what is popularly called male privilege generalised when your hypothetical transman in his hypothetical office/classroom with his hypothetical responsibility talking to a hypothetical woman is...well...the definition of generalised) is not affected at all by the circumstances of a transman's life.

In fact, I'm not sure that you can entirely or absolutely divorce the experiences of a transman as a transman from a hypothetical situation such as you have described. First of all, let's think a little bit about the freedoms and therefore privileges that "passing" may or may not provide. What is "passing?" I mean that question to involve both its definition and its implications on the life of the one doing the "passing." Unfortunately, the Oxford dictionary does not reflect on the term passing as it is applied race or sex, but settles for a brief mention of passing as "of a resemblence or similarity." So when we're talking about "passing" are we as "female to male" identities agreeing with popular belief that we are actually imperfect copies of men that require hiding those imperfections in order to maintain our well-being? That we are not "real men" but merely trying to trick others into seeing us as men?

And if this is, truly what we are doing then why do we do it? To be seen as male by mainstream society. What does being seen as male mean? For many it means that society does not identify us as female, but as our mind's sex. That, then, means that society believes that men born with XX chromosomes and an anatomy defined as "female" are not male, cannot be seriously considered male, and so we tell ourselves and keep the misconceptions alive. Hence why I would argue that passing can be (note, I do not state "always is") an oppressive tool, and just because a transman passes does not mean that he cannot be disempowered by another man, woman or any other identity; does not mean he cannot be silenced, and the secret disempowerment during a seemingly innocent hypothetical conversation can be very harmful, and can, in fact, create a problem out of throwing "male privilege" at him. Again, my argument is not that it exists, but that this so-called responsibility (which nothing can truly be if one simply places that on another person without their consent) cannot exist on its own and only on the side of the transman (and certainly not without taking into consideration his experiences as a transman).

If we are going to bring the issue of transmen, passing and what male privilege exists for transmen, then we cannot allow that discussion to be a one-sided flogging block. The hypothetical woman, in this hypothetical discussion with this hypothetical transman also has a responsibility to be aware of her cisgender privilege; the privilege she possesses as a non-transgender person, or, if she is a hypothetical heterosexual "biological" women, of her privilege beyond the queer spectrum. She should not be excused of her unawareness because of the fact that she does not know she is interacting with a transman. If the world is to drop its rigid gender laws, then it must remain constantly aware of what one says, because even the most "innocent" comments can be a privilege if you've never been at the pointy end[s] of the stick.

Again, just because someone passes, just because the other party doesn't know a transman was born female, does not mean that other party is powerless to hurt that transman. It just means that a transman may very well remain silent in order to avoid making his humiliation or offense public for fear that society will view him as a lesser man, or not a man at all; or perhaps it isn't not being seen as a man that frightens him most, but the consequences of that visibility. I'm thinking also of those of part African, part European heritage who have also used passing for survival or the attempt to gain and maintain some dignity in society. If an African American man who can pass as a white man is in the presence of a white woman who does not recognise his African American heritage, who does not remain aware of her own privilege, does that mean that that man is not humiliated, silenced or disempowered by a comment she makes thinking she is in the presence of a white man? How does his white male privilege compare to a white man who is not "passing?"

Like trans people, I feel that he, too, is wedged somewhere between oppression and privilege (both hanging a mighty big axe over his head). Again, the dynamic is not so black and white when you are dealing with a "passing" individual.

And this is a main part of my point. While the transman may arguably possess male privilege in this hypothetically hypothetical situation (yes, I think I may just have crossed the border to ridiculousland), the woman in the situation also possesses a privilege whether she is ignorant of it or aware of it.

Furthermore, what is the point of discussing one individual's privilege within a situation, if the awareness of each person's privilege is equally important when it comes down to burning the gender rulebook? The only purpose I can see is to guilt, alienate and shame one of the two parties; to place the importance of one over the other, and that is what I feel has happened at certain points of this thread when male privilege and transmen have been brought up. Especially when it comes to accusatory statements about a person supposedly denying their privilege without necessarily knowing the circumstances of their life or their struggles. And that is something I do not like to see or hear.

The source of both privileges is the rigidly heterosexual, gendered, classed etc. society we live in, and attacking one person over another screams ridding one's self of one's own responsibility and dumping it onto somebody else. This is not what I want, and feel we should be dealing with the source, not the symptoms. I don't mind talking about male privilege and how it relates to transmen, but if we're going to do that then we should also recognise how that privilege differs for transmen and the perhaps brutal and unpleasant reality of passing in so far as how it affects that privilege. We should also be discussing the very basic privileges someone who is not trans possesses over someone who is trans, in conjunction with the above discussion, because that privilege is something most people (I dare say both in and out of the LGBT community) are dreadfully unaware of.

[waxnrope]

I am enlightened by this discourse ... thank you Ender ...

[Martina]

There is nothing ridiculous about my hypothetical. How hypothetical is a man talking to a woman. I am sure I can walk out my door right now and see an instance of it.

What is ridiculous is the degree to which trans politics seems to want to go to deny that many trans people have male privilege.

i do not doubt that a cis-gender woman talking to a transman has cis-privilege or that she might hurt him accidentally. So you are saying because they both have privilege, that cancels something out and we shouldn't talk about it. Or that we shouldn't talk about it because transmen might feel shamed and they have enough on their plate? How will there be change then?

i am sure that a transman experienes his privilege differenty than a cis-gender man, but I won't experience his sexism differently if he enacts it. It will be the same. Nothing about his background or his struggles will make ME or other women immune from the effects of his behavior if he handles the privilege given to him without care. Even if he just accepts it as his right, he is doing harm.

i have no interest in surrendering my expectation that all men be aware of their privilege in a world as crushingly sexist is ours. i won't modify that expectation for any man. i don't think any of us should. It's not about the man or his background or his personal experiences. It's about the social world we live in.

i will never stop looking at male privilege just because there are other kinds of privilege out there. Is that what you are suggesting women do? That's how women find a way to live in the world, by seeing privilege for what it is and finding ways to navigate through it. That's how men learn to facilitate change and help empower women, through identifying privilege, by SEEING it first, and then finding ways to negate its effects.

[Thinker]

Martina, I would like to ask what it is that you would like to see said that is NOT being said.

And I swear to you I'm not being confrontational or "nasty" in my tone...not at all.

I haven't seen anyone here say that transmen do not experience male privilege (I admit to not reading every single post).

I have seen people admit to that AND ALSO say that there are many ways that transmen are at a disadvantage and sometimes in danger....that it is not as simple as saying, "Hey, I've transitioned......I'm a man......now my path will only ever be a smooth one."

It just seems to me that you don't want to hear the rest of that......that maybe you think that will water down the seriousness of the privilege bestowed upon transmen.

So I am asking.......seriously and respectfully........what is not being said that you think should be said?

Or is it that you think there are things being said that are wrong?

Because, again, I haven't seen anyone say a transman does not also receive male privilege when he walks through this world seen, perceived, and received as that man, that one over there, this one, etc...