2012 - What does it mean to you?

[Apocalipstic]

I am not a scientist (obviously) but have been giving the subject of why people believe in religion, astrology and so forth much thought.

I wonder, in some cases, like for example astrology, psychic ability and so forth, if it is possible that somehow there are perfectly rational explanations? (science we don't know yet).

Could the planets have a pull on us like the moon might?

So many scientific discoveries have happened in our lifetimes alone that I have to think there are many completely rational explanations for things we might consider "magical thinking".

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I am not a scientist (obviously) but have been giving the subject of why people believe in religion, astrology and so forth much thought.

I wonder, in some cases, like for example astrology, psychic ability and so forth, if it is possible that somehow there are perfectly rational explanations? (science we don't know yet).

Could the planets have a pull on us like the moon might?

If they did, then this pull would be of a completely DIFFERENT kind of field (meaning one we have never detected before). The only field from the other planets that have ANY effect on us here on Earth is the electromagnetic field (light). The only other field that the planets have that would effect us here would be the gravitational field but because of how fields fall off with distance we are not significantly affected by the gravitational fields of EITHER of our two nearest planetary neighbors (Venus and Mars) and outside of the effect of Jupiter hoovering up objects as they traverse into the inner solar system, Jupiter has no effect on us. That means that this 'astrological field' (if you will) either has to be energy in some form that we cannot detect (but it's NOT dark energy that we can be certain of) or it does not obey the inverse square law. It's not electromagnetism (because we could detect it if it were, there's no part of the EMF spectrum that we cannot detect) and it can't be gravity (for the reason cited above).

This puts the burden of justification on the proponents of astrology to explain what kind of energy it is, to propose tests we could use to determine if this energy exists and whether or not it obeys the inverse square law (and if it doesn't why and how it breaks what appears to be a *fundamental* rule).

Here's the thing that I think is lost in a lot of science education taken at the high school and non-science major undergrad level: a universe with, say, psi powers looks very different than one without. If one is going to propose these powers, okay, but then one should be prepared for curious sorts to ask probing and difficult questions.

Because I'm more comfortable talking about how this works with various scientific issues (because there's no danger I'm going to step on someone's cherished beliefs and thus insult them) I'll use an example of the kind of questioning and curiosity I'm talking about. Let's take string theory.

String theory is a mathematically *beautiful* structure that seeks to explain, amongst other things, why the four forces have the strengths they do and what those four forces would look like if unified. I will admit that from the minute I became aware of string theory I was captivated by it. I would really LIKE for the universe to work this way. However, there are some non-trivial problems with the theory and after five years of reading everything I could find that was in support of string theory I heard on NPR's Talk of the Nation Science Friday an interview with someone who had been a prominent string theorist who wrote a book called "The Trouble with Physics" which argued that string theory was almost certainly wrong. I went out and bought that book and another book by a mathematician with an interest in the subject called "Not Even Wrong". I waded through both (they're very dense and the subject matter is extremely arcane) but after reading both of those and some various journal articles on the subject, came to the conclusion that string theory was unlikely to be true. While I still hold out SOME hope it might be rescued from its problems, I am dubious this can or will happen which means that no matter how much I might *want* the universe to work this way, it is vanishingly improbable that it *does* work that way.

It required me to ask some very deep and difficult questions and whenever there was resistance to question MY motivations for that resistance. However, the rules are the rules and the two biggest problems string theory has are not trivial. There are some 5 *million* possible permutations of string theory any of which might be true with no way to whittle that down to a manageable number. This means that string theory is not falsifiable as a practical matter and it may not be falsifiable even in principle. If it's only the former, then it's a matter of time but if it's the latter then no matter how beautiful string theory is, it isn't science. The second problem is allied to the first. String theory requires 9 MORE dimensions than our familiar 3+1 (time is its own dimension) which are curled up so small that they are not detectable. This goes back to the falsifiability issue.

The reason I bring this up is to illustrate how I think about these things and what scientific thinking looks like. I also bring it up to show that when I ask these questions about, say, astrology I am applying the SAME standard to that idea that I apply to ideas I actually DO believe might have something to them. I do so because it's only *fair* to do so. It would be unfair for me to have one standard for astrology and another for string theory and it would be terribly inconsistent to boot. To the best of my ability I want to be consistent and fair-minded and that means treating all kinds of claims about the universe as being on an equal footing and not privileging some kinds of claims above others just because some are labeled 'spiritual' and some scientific.

Cheers
Aj

[NJFemmie]

My only suggestion is to investigate astrology. I could go on and on about it, but honestly? I really have no desire to, lol. It wouldn't be fair to turn this thread into science vs. metaphysics - since my original intent was to simply answer a question about what I thought about 2012.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

My only suggestion is to investigate astrology. I could go on and on about it, but honestly? I really have no desire to, lol. It wouldn't be fair to turn this thread into science vs. metaphysics - since my original intent was to simply answer a question about what I thought about 2012.

Well, so that the thread doesn't die I'll bow out of it. Obviously, it's more entertaining to talk about, on the one hand, vague, non-specific events than it is to actually delve into the grounding issues of what might happen and why. I thought that good information about the science would crowd out bad information but that only works if people want good information which, clearly, they don't.

So enjoy the 23 month "the Mayans said the world will end!" party. On 22 Dec 2012, I'll be giggling my butt off and wondering how many people will have the courage to admit that 2012 was just another year.

Cheers
Aj

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Well, so that the thread doesn't die I'll bow out of it. Obviously, it's more entertaining to talk about, on the one hand, vague, non-specific events than it is to actually delve into the grounding issues of what might happen and why. I thought that good information about the science would crowd out bad information but that only works if people want good information which, clearly, they don't.

So enjoy the 23 month "the Mayans said the world will end!" party. On 22 Dec 2012, I'll be giggling my butt off and wondering how many people will have the courage to admit that 2012 was just another year.

Cheers
Aj

Everyone isn't going to care about the details. Details can be quite boorish. The web is vast and there's tons of information on it for those who want it though.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

Everyone isn't going to care about the details. Details can be quite boorish. The web is vast and there's tons of information on it for those who want it though.

Details can be quite unmannered, rude and insensitive?

Maybe you mean boring?

As in: Detailed discussion on a thread topic can be boring? (to you)



It's hard to imagine how the details of something that one believes controls or effects all aspects of life in a mystical sense would be boring to that person, especially in a thread about how those beliefs will spur an impending global transformation...

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Details can be quite unmannered, rude and insensitive?

Maybe you mean boring?

As in: Detailed discussion on a thread topic can be boring? (to you)

I choose to not sit here and write about astrology and the science behind it and bore myself (and others) to death. Yes, I meant boring.

And yes, I am bored now.

[friskyfemme]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

My only suggestion is to investigate astrology. I could go on and on about it, but honestly? I really have no desire to, lol. It wouldn't be fair to turn this thread into science vs. metaphysics - since my original intent was to simply answer a question about what I thought about 2012.

Off topic but I tend to wander off alot...LOL
Is this pic with the cat an image of mouse in 'light' form intentional? or am I having a '60s flashback'?

[Toughy]

2012......I will be 60 yrs old (June 24) and that's a number I cannot even understand.......laughin..........

It reminds me of a bumper sticker found all over NM during the Y2K hype:

Y2K is everyday in NM

Meaning: if all the hype had come true, nothing in NM would have changed........laughin....

I must admit I did go out to Point Reyes with a bunch of friends and 'harmonically converged' when we were supposed to do that to save the planet..........it was a great time hanging at the beach and doing a bit of meditation to the sound of the waves and the light of the moon.

It's the Solstice and I will be having a Solstice Celebration just like I do every year. It's a celebration of the return of the light.

[WILDCAT]

Clearly, this is a deep topic for some and then, NOT SO - for others.

I just want to play this song - for something to think about... Well, plus I love music as a "communicator". (But! This is NOT "science"! Just an old video.)

I was actually waiting for our science geek to give me the facts here, and then... once I knew we wouldn't BLOW the fuck up or spin into obscurity out of control... cool. I was "down" with it.

The "religious" part of this equation FREAKS ME THE HELL OUT!

However, I happen to LOVE both Astrololgy AND Astronomy! I can tell you for a FACT, that there is effect for every single "SECOND" of changed allignment" out there. Plus, I've had experiences that would make folk's hair stand up straight on their heads if I shared them... they simply would NOT believe me.

There IS a plane of existence that we do not [fully] understand. I'm NOT into organized religion and actually that thought of Armageddon is NUTS to me. But, I know what I know... for I am an OLD SOUL! Just the way it is. (And I don't need to explain or justify it to ANYONE.)

STILL, hate to see folks fighting here over "our own DEMISE". Kinda of funny, if you really "think about it, yes"?

Enjoy an old video/song and MY sense of "humor"? K?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12rh6yhBJ34"]YouTube- Peter Schilling Major Tom coming home[/ame]

LOVE THIS STUFF!

Count down, ya'll!!!

WILDCAT

[WILDCAT]

I should explain a bit more...

When you throw a stone into a pond, the ripple effect moves on and on...

Out in space, when anything COLLIDES, we FEEL IT!
__

If you are in the woods and close your eyes... you can FEEL the tree before you reach it - for it has it's own aura.

Here, personally: I can feel a change in energy, and walk downstairs and just happen to see twenty deer in my yard.

Well, some might say... "just a wild coincidence"! But, then.. why do some of us "FEEL IT"?

I can tell you honesty, that I feel when deer are right outside my cabin.
___

Anyway, that is not even my most important concern! (Like, if you believe me or not...) What matters to me, IS... ???

LOVE

[dreadgeek]

It's 21 December 2012. No rogue planets crashing into the Earth. No gigantic solar storms knocking the planet on its axis. No gigantic solar flares knocking out all electronics on the planet. No polar shifts. And another prophecy of "we're all gonna die! The wisdom of the ancients tells us so!" goes into the dustbin of ludicrous history.