In Celebration of Butch Femininity

[BullDog]

Julie, OK well, I am a lesbian butch so if feels a bit harsh to hear you say that, but I think I get what you are talking about. I think we should all respect space but I don't like things heavily zoned. I started a thread in the lesbian zone once and welcomed all lesbians, dykes, friends and allies. That is how I like the convos to go myself.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Julie, OK well, I am a lesbian butch so if feels a bit harsh to hear you say that, but I think I get what you are talking about. I think we should all respect space but I don't like things heavily zoned. I started a thread in the lesbian zone once and welcomed all lesbians, dykes, friends and allies. That is how I like the convos to go myself.

As it should be Bulldog. The only thread I think butches/trans need to stay out of - are the Femme bonding threads. When they come in and with their sexual innuendo's and the same for butch/trans threads that are about being butch/trans and bonding.

And I am harsh, so of course I sound that way :-)

[BullDog]

Lol, Julie about the harsh. I get the issue you speak of but I don't think going around saying lesbian butches are judgmental is going to help make things better, especially since not all of us do that. It seems just as judgmental to me, raising the specific issue does not.

I feel a lot of anti lesbian sentiment in bf circles. I also see some lesbians in bf spaces not respecting gender and diversity (insisting on calling everyone ladies, etc).

I am a stone butch and a lesbian. I've heard remarks from some lesbian butches here about stone or chest surgery being a male issue and they want their own space. I scratch my head, cuz I am a stone butch and a lesbian.

Then there are people who think of lesbian and stone butch being completely opposite of each other. They say they are stone and don't have lesbian sex. Again, I scratch my head.

So yeah I have seen lots of judgements from all different angles.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Lol, Julie about the harsh. I get the issue you speak of but I don't think going around saying lesbian butches are judgmental is going to help make things better, especially since not all of us do that. It seems just as judgmental to me, raising the specific issue does not.

I feel a lot of anti lesbian sentiment in bf circles. I also see some lesbians in bf spaces not respecting gender and diversity (insisting on calling everyone ladies, etc).

I am a stone butch and a lesbian. I've heard remarks from some lesbian butches here about stone or chest surgery being a male issue and they want their own space. I scratch my head, cuz I am a stone butch and a lesbian.

Then there are people who think of lesbian and stone butch being completely opposite of each other. They say they are stone and don't have lesbian sex. Again, I scratch my head.

So yeah I have seen lots of judgements from all different angles.

This why, in person, I skip the ID thing completely and just go to the bit that matters to me, that they see themselves as women or genderqueer on some level and that in the bedroom they have at least part time, a dick. Or have fantasies about it and would like to try it. That I am happy to perform all sorts and various things on their vaginas, if they see their bits that way, I am a lesbian as well as a queer, but I tend to say descriptive desire words for them like hard, stiff, etc rather than wet and if that upsets or offends them or makes them feel invisible then we shouldn't be having sex, it's a bad match as I don't wish to make them feel devalued for who they are.

I'm happy to fist, gspot stim, hand use a dildo, vibrator etc, but describing what I'm doing as penetrating a vagina, even though that's what I'm doing and bloody enjoying it, doesn't really get me there. I may enjoy the feeling of wetness with my fingers, but I don't really enjoy the words aurally. I'm also happy to be with certain kinds of stones. I'm pretty inclusive and happy with many types of gender and sexuality. I'm happy I'm fairly flexible about this. I wish I was more flexible with being a sub, but I have learned through trying that tips just not within my capacity, no matter how much I wish I was mostly a domme or a true switch. I would have so many dates if I could hook up easily with brat switch butches (60% brat bottom, 40% service top/Top/Dom)The hills are thronging with them.

Do I feel pressured by femmes to conform? No. When a femme on line talks about the correct way to be femme, I roll my eyes. When a bunch are talking about being treated like a princess or courted and woo'd and swept off their feet and sighing, I feel like an alien species but I know so many femmes in person that are boxers, mechanics, forestry rangers etc and who would find that somewhat absurd. The ones in person I do know like that are Dommes. They want to be worshipped and adored and they will give back in truckloads, all they hot dominant sex a butch could ever want.

On line I just feel very different. In person I sometimes do, but mostly not. A chunk more than I did in London. But really it's the butches that I feel not up to par with. Not the femmes. I watch all the fawning back and forth and feel quite lumpy and Lurch like. Because it seems people "get" that way of flirting in bf on line space. In person I piss ass about and smart ass and laugh and use dark humour. On line... I just can't do the flutter and giggle and shimmy and oh you big daddy you, can I sit on your lap... I just can't. It's so not me. So it looks contrived. It probably isn't for every who is doing it but for me it would be.

And like Martina, I don't describe my experience in life engendered. I don't do things because I'm a femme or because I'm a woman. Having someone tell me "oh you picked that table because you are a woman" makes me very irked. Or telling me the same thing because I'm femme. Equally irked. It is very hard to come back from a place where butch and femme and genderqueer and trans just *is* (something you be) rather than... Placed into the language so so so much. (,something you talk about and define. And talk about some more. And point out. And state. And reference. And attach to ordering coffee).

<:/

[ButchBowWow]

Interesting topic...

Originally Posted by Nat

Over the years I've run into many conversations with people off-site who have hit my radar as butch-ish, but who feel like certain "feminine" traits they possess or express somehow exclude them or distance them from butchness.

I am butch who would some would call 'butch-ish' Nope, what another person thinks of my gender is no longer my concern.

Originally Posted by NAT

Among things I've specifically heard: haircuts, relationship to make-up, pronouns, sexual preferences, wearing women's clothes or undergarments, even prefered roles within a family or relationship, even jobs held.

Yep, I've been told that I am not a butch because of my hair length, I like to fuck and get fucked, I cry at ATT&T commercials, etc.

Originally Posted by NAT

This thread is intended as an opportunity for celebration of the femininity which can co-exist with being a butch. Because I think it's better to celebrate where there has perhaps been some tendency in the direction of shaming in our community and in the greater community.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by NAT

Do you experience gender pressure from other butches or masculine people to amp up your masculinity or tone down your femininity in order to *qualify* as butch? Have you ever found yourself exerting gender pressure on self-identified butches? If you are not butch, have you ever found yourself pressuring butches to behave, dress, etc in more masculine ways than is natural?

I used to but what other humans think of me is of no concern to me. In my younger days, I remember saying things that make me cringe when I think about them. Then I grew up and realized that however someone expresses their gender is not for me to judge or be judged.

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

I guess I personally don't see make up as feminine. I grew up with boys wearing it- goth and punk rock, rock and roll glam... Heavy eyeliner and mascara with peacock hair was dangerous and edgy, not gendered....

I still want Jon Bon Jovi's hair!

Originally Posted by Hey You

Hmm.

I have what barbers call a box cut and a rattail and I wouldn't wear makeup if you paid me, and my wardrobe is certainly not femme in any way. I buy from the men's section as much as possible and go out of my way to not look what I perceive as 'girly'. But part of the reason I.. struggle is the wrong word, but it's the only one my post-gym brain can come up with. Part of the reason I struggle with whether I'm a butch or soft butch or whatever, not that it's exceptionally important but I'd like to know, is a couple of these almost feminine things.
I have taken up lawn bowls. Not exceptionally butch but it is fun and harder than it looks. I balance it out by doing weight lifting. Also much, much fun and so empowering.
I play classical piano. I have no idea where that sits but it is the one thing I will never, ever quit no matter what.
I'm almost a qualified librarian. Make of that what you will.
My biggest dream in the whole world is to have children. I want to get pregnant, give birth and breastfeed. That desire has been with me for YEARS and it's not going away. Is that un-butch? I feel like it's a female desire, but not necessarily a feminine one. After all, as I like to say, getting my period is my concession to being female. I would actually really appreciate people's views on this.

I think that ultimately, for me anyway, my butchness, however much there is of it, comes down to the way I like to present to the world, the way I like to approach dating, and the contents of my fantasies. The way I fill up my life doesn't really form part of that. My brain is mush right now and I think it's not really a black/white issue. Very interesting one, though, thanks for bringing it up.

All of that made sense in my head. Let me know if any of it needs clarifying and I will do it later when my brain wakes back up. Lol.

/Essay over.

I used to listen to those folks when I was in my late 20's-early 30's. I still have people question my butchness. Now in my late 40's I don't give a fuck, I am butch, how you (the general) perceive my gender doesn't really matter to me anymore. Butch is my gender and I may have traits that you (general) deem 'feminine' but it really isn't up to you to define how I 'do' butch.

[C0LLETTE]

Bolsheviks vs Mensheviks, Lenin vs Trotsky, Marat vs Sade vs Robespierre, Jefferson vs Hamilton, MLK vs Malcolm X...etc. Seems all "movements have these schisms .
So my question is, Butler vs ?. Is there anyone within this community who cogently presents an antithetical view but is still accepted within the community? It's a small question but I am curious.

[stargazingboi]

Originally Posted by C0LLETTE

Bolsheviks vs Mensheviks, Lenin vs Trotsky, Marat vs Sade vs Robespierre, Jefferson vs Hamilton, MLK vs Malcolm X...etc. Seems all "movements have these schisms .
So my question is, Butler vs ?. Is there anyone within this community who cogently presents an antithetical view but is still accepted within the community? It's a small question but I am curious.

I believe there are. However, with any group of people debating one often sees support of each side being debated. Therefore, I have yet to see an opinion so different that a person had no support and alone and ultimately not accepted.

Then again...I could be misreading and not answering your question correctly

[C0LLETTE]

Thanks stargazingboi. My q is a straightforward one. I was just wondering if someone had a name of one or two writers/thinkers/academics etc on this topic who present a view different than Butlers on the subject of inclusion/exclusion but were still respected in this community. I'm not presenting a pov just asking for info.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by C0LLETTE

Butler vs ?. Is there anyone within this community who cogently presents an antithetical view but is still accepted within the community?

Kobi?

She is presenting like an old-fashioned identity politics feminist right now - although she has a post in which she talked about running into some hard core anti-trans essentialist ones and did not like what she found.

Trying to think who else. The Taliban? I am being facetious, but why would anyone want to reclaim identity politics? They don't make sense. I don't know. I am sure there are people. But the social construction of race and gender are pretty widely accepted, sort of a bedrock social theory.

Maybe biologists and psychologists who study the biological basis of sex and gender? For race, no. There is no other accepted theory.