In Celebration of Butch Femininity

[BullDog]

Julie, it doesn't surprise me that your boys played with dolls. I am sure they had a very supportive environment for that. I don't see it as common though, but if there are lots of boys out playing with dolls that's awesome.

I am not sure if you are disagreeing with me, jumping off my post or what. Lesbian butches more judgmental?

Online world definitely different than in real time. It's also much easier for us to misunderstand each other than face to face.

I think I need some sleep.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Julie, it doesn't surprise me that your boys played with dolls. I am sure they had a very supportive environment for that. I don't see it as common though, but if there are lots of boys out playing with dolls that's awesome.

I am not sure if you are disagreeing with me, jumping off my post or what. Lesbian butches more judgmental?

Online world definitely different than in real time. It's also much easier for us to misunderstand each other than face to face.

I think I need some sleep.

I am jumping off your post. I know more boys that were raised with dolls and trucks, than I know who were not.

I do think Lesbian Butches are more judgmental. It seems all the chaos that I hear around here, is how Lesbian Butches want their own space, because they are Lesbians and they want to feel safe. Kinda makes me a bit crazy really. All this has done is divided us. I remember a Lesbian Butch saying that if a Femme was stone, then she wasn't really a Lesbian. REALLY? And I am not speaking of you Bulldog. We have so many beautiful dynamics here, yet we judge. Constantly judge one another on how we live our lives or how we fuck. Hearing a Femme cannot be a Femme, if she is with a trans guy! Really? I only hear this from the Lesbian Butches... Those who want to be known as Lesbian Butches.

So ya... I am a bit tired of how we treat one another.

[BullDog]

Julie, OK well, I am a lesbian butch so if feels a bit harsh to hear you say that, but I think I get what you are talking about. I think we should all respect space but I don't like things heavily zoned. I started a thread in the lesbian zone once and welcomed all lesbians, dykes, friends and allies. That is how I like the convos to go myself.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Julie, OK well, I am a lesbian butch so if feels a bit harsh to hear you say that, but I think I get what you are talking about. I think we should all respect space but I don't like things heavily zoned. I started a thread in the lesbian zone once and welcomed all lesbians, dykes, friends and allies. That is how I like the convos to go myself.

As it should be Bulldog. The only thread I think butches/trans need to stay out of - are the Femme bonding threads. When they come in and with their sexual innuendo's and the same for butch/trans threads that are about being butch/trans and bonding.

And I am harsh, so of course I sound that way :-)

[BullDog]

Lol, Julie about the harsh. I get the issue you speak of but I don't think going around saying lesbian butches are judgmental is going to help make things better, especially since not all of us do that. It seems just as judgmental to me, raising the specific issue does not.

I feel a lot of anti lesbian sentiment in bf circles. I also see some lesbians in bf spaces not respecting gender and diversity (insisting on calling everyone ladies, etc).

I am a stone butch and a lesbian. I've heard remarks from some lesbian butches here about stone or chest surgery being a male issue and they want their own space. I scratch my head, cuz I am a stone butch and a lesbian.

Then there are people who think of lesbian and stone butch being completely opposite of each other. They say they are stone and don't have lesbian sex. Again, I scratch my head.

So yeah I have seen lots of judgements from all different angles.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Lol, Julie about the harsh. I get the issue you speak of but I don't think going around saying lesbian butches are judgmental is going to help make things better, especially since not all of us do that. It seems just as judgmental to me, raising the specific issue does not.

I feel a lot of anti lesbian sentiment in bf circles. I also see some lesbians in bf spaces not respecting gender and diversity (insisting on calling everyone ladies, etc).

I am a stone butch and a lesbian. I've heard remarks from some lesbian butches here about stone or chest surgery being a male issue and they want their own space. I scratch my head, cuz I am a stone butch and a lesbian.

Then there are people who think of lesbian and stone butch being completely opposite of each other. They say they are stone and don't have lesbian sex. Again, I scratch my head.

So yeah I have seen lots of judgements from all different angles.

This why, in person, I skip the ID thing completely and just go to the bit that matters to me, that they see themselves as women or genderqueer on some level and that in the bedroom they have at least part time, a dick. Or have fantasies about it and would like to try it. That I am happy to perform all sorts and various things on their vaginas, if they see their bits that way, I am a lesbian as well as a queer, but I tend to say descriptive desire words for them like hard, stiff, etc rather than wet and if that upsets or offends them or makes them feel invisible then we shouldn't be having sex, it's a bad match as I don't wish to make them feel devalued for who they are.

I'm happy to fist, gspot stim, hand use a dildo, vibrator etc, but describing what I'm doing as penetrating a vagina, even though that's what I'm doing and bloody enjoying it, doesn't really get me there. I may enjoy the feeling of wetness with my fingers, but I don't really enjoy the words aurally. I'm also happy to be with certain kinds of stones. I'm pretty inclusive and happy with many types of gender and sexuality. I'm happy I'm fairly flexible about this. I wish I was more flexible with being a sub, but I have learned through trying that tips just not within my capacity, no matter how much I wish I was mostly a domme or a true switch. I would have so many dates if I could hook up easily with brat switch butches (60% brat bottom, 40% service top/Top/Dom)The hills are thronging with them.

Do I feel pressured by femmes to conform? No. When a femme on line talks about the correct way to be femme, I roll my eyes. When a bunch are talking about being treated like a princess or courted and woo'd and swept off their feet and sighing, I feel like an alien species but I know so many femmes in person that are boxers, mechanics, forestry rangers etc and who would find that somewhat absurd. The ones in person I do know like that are Dommes. They want to be worshipped and adored and they will give back in truckloads, all they hot dominant sex a butch could ever want.

On line I just feel very different. In person I sometimes do, but mostly not. A chunk more than I did in London. But really it's the butches that I feel not up to par with. Not the femmes. I watch all the fawning back and forth and feel quite lumpy and Lurch like. Because it seems people "get" that way of flirting in bf on line space. In person I piss ass about and smart ass and laugh and use dark humour. On line... I just can't do the flutter and giggle and shimmy and oh you big daddy you, can I sit on your lap... I just can't. It's so not me. So it looks contrived. It probably isn't for every who is doing it but for me it would be.

And like Martina, I don't describe my experience in life engendered. I don't do things because I'm a femme or because I'm a woman. Having someone tell me "oh you picked that table because you are a woman" makes me very irked. Or telling me the same thing because I'm femme. Equally irked. It is very hard to come back from a place where butch and femme and genderqueer and trans just *is* (something you be) rather than... Placed into the language so so so much. (,something you talk about and define. And talk about some more. And point out. And state. And reference. And attach to ordering coffee).

<:/

[ButchBowWow]

Interesting topic...

Originally Posted by Nat

Over the years I've run into many conversations with people off-site who have hit my radar as butch-ish, but who feel like certain "feminine" traits they possess or express somehow exclude them or distance them from butchness.

I am butch who would some would call 'butch-ish' Nope, what another person thinks of my gender is no longer my concern.

Originally Posted by NAT

Among things I've specifically heard: haircuts, relationship to make-up, pronouns, sexual preferences, wearing women's clothes or undergarments, even prefered roles within a family or relationship, even jobs held.

Yep, I've been told that I am not a butch because of my hair length, I like to fuck and get fucked, I cry at ATT&T commercials, etc.

Originally Posted by NAT

This thread is intended as an opportunity for celebration of the femininity which can co-exist with being a butch. Because I think it's better to celebrate where there has perhaps been some tendency in the direction of shaming in our community and in the greater community.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by NAT

Do you experience gender pressure from other butches or masculine people to amp up your masculinity or tone down your femininity in order to *qualify* as butch? Have you ever found yourself exerting gender pressure on self-identified butches? If you are not butch, have you ever found yourself pressuring butches to behave, dress, etc in more masculine ways than is natural?

I used to but what other humans think of me is of no concern to me. In my younger days, I remember saying things that make me cringe when I think about them. Then I grew up and realized that however someone expresses their gender is not for me to judge or be judged.

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

I guess I personally don't see make up as feminine. I grew up with boys wearing it- goth and punk rock, rock and roll glam... Heavy eyeliner and mascara with peacock hair was dangerous and edgy, not gendered....

I still want Jon Bon Jovi's hair!

Originally Posted by Hey You

Hmm.

I have what barbers call a box cut and a rattail and I wouldn't wear makeup if you paid me, and my wardrobe is certainly not femme in any way. I buy from the men's section as much as possible and go out of my way to not look what I perceive as 'girly'. But part of the reason I.. struggle is the wrong word, but it's the only one my post-gym brain can come up with. Part of the reason I struggle with whether I'm a butch or soft butch or whatever, not that it's exceptionally important but I'd like to know, is a couple of these almost feminine things.
I have taken up lawn bowls. Not exceptionally butch but it is fun and harder than it looks. I balance it out by doing weight lifting. Also much, much fun and so empowering.
I play classical piano. I have no idea where that sits but it is the one thing I will never, ever quit no matter what.
I'm almost a qualified librarian. Make of that what you will.
My biggest dream in the whole world is to have children. I want to get pregnant, give birth and breastfeed. That desire has been with me for YEARS and it's not going away. Is that un-butch? I feel like it's a female desire, but not necessarily a feminine one. After all, as I like to say, getting my period is my concession to being female. I would actually really appreciate people's views on this.

I think that ultimately, for me anyway, my butchness, however much there is of it, comes down to the way I like to present to the world, the way I like to approach dating, and the contents of my fantasies. The way I fill up my life doesn't really form part of that. My brain is mush right now and I think it's not really a black/white issue. Very interesting one, though, thanks for bringing it up.

All of that made sense in my head. Let me know if any of it needs clarifying and I will do it later when my brain wakes back up. Lol.

/Essay over.

I used to listen to those folks when I was in my late 20's-early 30's. I still have people question my butchness. Now in my late 40's I don't give a fuck, I am butch, how you (the general) perceive my gender doesn't really matter to me anymore. Butch is my gender and I may have traits that you (general) deem 'feminine' but it really isn't up to you to define how I 'do' butch.

[C0LLETTE]

Bolsheviks vs Mensheviks, Lenin vs Trotsky, Marat vs Sade vs Robespierre, Jefferson vs Hamilton, MLK vs Malcolm X...etc. Seems all "movements have these schisms .
So my question is, Butler vs ?. Is there anyone within this community who cogently presents an antithetical view but is still accepted within the community? It's a small question but I am curious.

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Julie

I do think Lesbian Butches are more judgmental. It seems all the chaos that I hear around here, is how Lesbian Butches want their own space, because they are Lesbians and they want to feel safe. Kinda makes me a bit crazy really. All this has done is divided us. I remember a Lesbian Butch saying that if a Femme was stone, then she wasn't really a Lesbian. REALLY? And I am not speaking of you Bulldog. We have so many beautiful dynamics here, yet we judge. Constantly judge one another on how we live our lives or how we fuck. Hearing a Femme cannot be a Femme, if she is with a trans guy! Really? I only hear this from the Lesbian Butches... Those who want to be known as Lesbian Butches.

So ya... I am a bit tired of how we treat one another.

I'm all in support of you expressing your thoughts and opinions like this, but I have to ask: How do you get away with it? I would be very reluctant to state any strong position myself, expecting immediate backlash and quick mod involvement.

Good for you, Julie. Though I don't agree with your opinions completely, I commend you for putting them out there and sticking to them.

[Play]

Originally Posted by Julie

I do think Lesbian Butches are more judgmental. It seems all the chaos that I hear around here, is how Lesbian Butches want their own space, because they are Lesbians and they want to feel safe. Kinda makes me a bit crazy really. All this has done is divided us. I remember a Lesbian Butch saying that if a Femme was stone, then she wasn't really a Lesbian. REALLY? And I am not speaking of you Bulldog. We have so many beautiful dynamics here, yet we judge. Constantly judge one another on how we live our lives or how we fuck. Hearing a Femme cannot be a Femme, if she is with a trans guy! Really? I only hear this from the Lesbian Butches... Those who want to be known as Lesbian Butches.

So ya... I am a bit tired of how we treat one another.

When I read this post I understood it for what it truly was, a personal
experience. As a butch lesbian, I'm sorry you have gone through dealing
with that type of attitude. Please don't judge all by the actions of one,
some, or even many. We are all individuals. (As with any subset of the
population there are good and bad.)

The potential backlash one gets from posting their own opinion or experience
is one of the reasons I have avoided these discussions for so long. A frank
discussion with exchange of ideas, opinions, and experiences without
condemnation or judgment would be refreshing to me.

Also, it is damn near impossible to hear "tone" in a post here on the forums.
While my writing style is on the formal side. I am a goofy smartass who is
far more likely to make you laugh than evoke anger.

"Life and let live" "Variety is the spice of life." "It takes all kinds"....
(insert any other cliche here as long as it is accepting and inviting to
continue individual expression)

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Julie

I am jumping off your post. I know more boys that were raised with dolls and trucks, than I know who were not.

I do think Lesbian Butches are more judgmental. It seems all the chaos that I hear around here, is how Lesbian Butches want their own space, because they are Lesbians and they want to feel safe. Kinda makes me a bit crazy really. All this has done is divided us. I remember a Lesbian Butch saying that if a Femme was stone, then she wasn't really a Lesbian. REALLY? And I am not speaking of you Bulldog. We have so many beautiful dynamics here, yet we judge. Constantly judge one another on how we live our lives or how we fuck. Hearing a Femme cannot be a Femme, if she is with a trans guy! Really? I only hear this from the Lesbian Butches... Those who want to be known as Lesbian Butches.

So ya... I am a bit tired of how we treat one another.

Julie, this is so incredibly offensive, hateful, and judgmental it is not even worth responding to.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Julie, this is so incredibly offensive, hateful, and judgmental it is not even worth responding to.

You did respond Kobi! Though under handed as it might be. Respond you did.

Offensive? Nah. - Just honest about my feelings.

Hateful? I don't hate lesbians. For god sake, I came out as one and celebrate that part of my history. I have just learned from online forums that dykes like me, don't really fit in with the Lesbian culture here, nor do many based upon what many have stated.

Judgmental? Ya, I'm tired of people telling people how to fuck, how to identify based on their fucking and what makes a butch BUTCH or femme FEMME. Not long ago in a far distant land, I read somewhere that femme's are bottoms.

Bulldog, I did not intend to imply that all Lesbians behave this way on this site. I am sorry if it felt like I was boxing all Lesbians together. My issue in the real world with Lesbians is how I have been treated (me) based on having nails or how I dress or the fact my partner is masculine. Or how many of my other friends have been excluded or judged based on their masculinity or how they identify.

And seriously, what is Lesbian sex anyway? I forget.

Play, thank you for recognizing immediately that I am typing behind a computer screen and you are not able to hear my tone.

I used to celebrate that I was a Femme Lesbian, until I was told over and over and over what that meant. Now, I am simply Femme, Dyke or Queer or all three of them wrapped into one. I also am comfortable with simply Gay.

And yes, these are my personal experiences and based on how I have seen others treated. Honestly Play, I could care less what you say about me (not you) at this point. I am so comfortable with how I live my life and love and make love and fuck and communicate. I think it becomes triggery for me, when I read that certain "subset's" of our culture are not welcome.

Imagine being the partner to a butch. You identify as a Femme Lesbian. You have been in this community for 20 years (example) and then all of a sudden, your beloved partner wants to transition. Not only is your partner shunned from the community, but you are now viewed as a heterosexual. This is hurtful and damaging. Who in the world nominated this Lesbian Task Force?

Tapu, who knows. Perhaps because I did not make blanket statements, such as Femme = Bottom. <shrugs>

Julie

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Julie

Tapu, who knows. Perhaps because I did not make blanket statements, such as Femme = Bottom. <shrugs>

Julie

Julie, what you said IS a blanket statement--that's the point some here are trying to make to you. Medusa, among others.

And not to put too fine a point on it, when I made my egregious statement, I was talking purely from my experience--a point I attempted to clarify and I think Medusa got.

[Chancie]

Originally Posted by Julie

I am jumping off your post. I know more boys that were raised with dolls and trucks, than I know who were not.

I do think Lesbian Butches are more judgmental. It seems all the chaos that I hear around here, is how Lesbian Butches want their own space, because they are Lesbians and they want to feel safe. Kinda makes me a bit crazy really. All this has done is divided us. I remember a Lesbian Butch saying that if a Femme was stone, then she wasn't really a Lesbian. REALLY? And I am not speaking of you Bulldog. We have so many beautiful dynamics here, yet we judge. Constantly judge one another on how we live our lives or how we fuck. Hearing a Femme cannot be a Femme, if she is with a trans guy! Really? I only hear this from the Lesbian Butches... Those who want to be known as Lesbian Butches.

So ya... I am a bit tired of how we treat one another.

That's some ugly shit.

[Julie]

Because I speak my truth based on what I have seen or felt? I think it's really offensive as well to be placed in a box and told you are not welcome places or do not fit it.

Ya, that's some ugly shit.

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Julie

Because I speak my truth based on what I have seen or felt? I think it's really offensive as well to be placed in a box and told you are not welcome places or do not fit it.

Ya, that's some ugly shit.

Pot, kettle?

Seriously and constructively though, I think it would improve the overall situation if the same degree of "tamping down" on controversial opinions were applied across the board.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by tapu

Pot, kettle?

Seriously and constructively though, I think it would improve the overall situation if the same degree of "tamping down" on controversial opinions were applied across the board.

I prefer a Kettle!

Let's take a sensitivity class together Tapu!

[Medusa]

Ok folks, we are getting reports about this thread.

Julie - It's ok to speak about your own experiences, just don't generalize. You were fine until you said "Lesbians judge how we...".

All - There are some great examples in this thread of people engaging respectfully with Julie on what they thought was problematic about what she said about Lesbians and I'd prefer that if you are having a problem with something someone said, you engage with that person respectfully rather than cyber-slapping them. It's not productive and does nothing to further the conversation.

On a personal note, it is difficult to moderate discussions where people are talking about things they have experienced and how they perceive other people or other groups of people. Sure, people like to go "Well, if you insert "Femme" or "Trans" into that discussion then you'd moderate!!" but it is not that black and white.
This is Butch/Femme/Trans space. It's women's space. It is not exclusively Lesbian space just as it is not exclusively Femme or Trans or Butch space. The intention for this space, however, stands as Butch, Femme, and Trans space and we have GOT to be able to discuss the nuances specific to our community reasonably and as healthy as possible.

We have moderated a fair amount of folks for talking about what they have experienced in the Lesbian community and I have often felt really frustrated by that. Not because I don't think that we need to be very careful about making generalizations (of course this is important!), but because I have felt like it is somehow "taboo" to talk about the very real marginalization that Butches, Femmes, and Transpeople have experienced in the Lesbian community. It's especially frustrating when that conversation gets squashed in Butch,Femme, Trans space. Why? Because that's a very real conversation that is valid, truthful, and important.

The other thing that is frustrating is that people like Julie *who identify as a Lesbian* are being silenced from talking about their own community. I would be agog if I, as a Femme (who consequently identifies as a Lesbian as well), was being told by TPTB that I can't call it out when other Femmes marginalize me. Do we really want that in our community? Do we really want a lily-white, washed up for the masses version of history? Do we want sacred cows here?

Look, I'm not saying that Lesbians should be villified, or stereotyped, or generalized as "evil, humorless crustbuckets who slash and burn all things Butch, Femme, and Trans". That's bull and we all know it. We are all worthy of respect and I don't want the Lesbians in this community feeling targeted or disrespected just like I don't want the Butches, Femmes, Transfolks, and intersectionalized identities feeling disrespected.

With that said, can we all please agree that this is a valid discussion worthy of our best choices of words? Worthy of our best effort to speak from our own experience with specificity and in a way that honors this space and the discussion? And can we please follow some of the fine examples in this thread of debating with respect so that this discussion can continue without a bunch of acidity and unhealthy back and forth?

These discussions ("these" meaning any discussion that involves teasing apart gender and idnetity) always run the risk of offending one or multiple people. It's going to happen. We're human and our lenses are all different. Hopefully we can all commit to doing this with as much good will as possible so let's check our "stuff" at the door and work toward understanding one another. K?

Thanks,
Angie

[C0LLETTE]

"I mean FFS -- Lesbians judge how we fuck! (that was another topic). "

Have lesbians been sent off into the wilderness again ?

I'm lost again.