In Celebration of Butch Femininity

[Nat]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I really feel that the conversation should be allowed to flow organically, it will eventually either be resolved, people will talk, evolve, but it's organic and no one is being to overly gross,

It's been painful yet great to see people's brain juices flow, and it's different people sharing their stuff not just 3 or 4.

Not that you care what I think, it's your thread, but I really wanted you to know that it's important what is happening.

I always care what you think Snowy. <3 you are one of my favorite people and you've impacted my life greatly just by being exactly who you are and refusing to compromise.

I started the thread but am not a mod and I have no strong intention of controlling the direction of this thread. I just hope butch voices aren't being silenced here in a rather delicate/vulnerable place where they have been invited to engage. If I weren't piled under a deluge of homework, I would probably try to figure out a good spin-off thread for the contentious issues.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Nat

I always care what you think Snowy. <3 you are one of my favorite people and you've impacted my life greatly just by being exactly who you are and refusing to compromise.

I started the thread but am not a mod and I have no strong intention of controlling the direction of this thread. I just hope butch voices aren't being silenced here in a rather delicate/vulnerable place where they have been invited to engage. If I weren't piled under a deluge of homework, I would probably try to figure out a good spin-off thread for the contentious issues.

I think inviting other folk who aren't butch is why we are all here, plus when it comes to femininity, that opens it up to well myself, I am feminine. I guess if anything the thread should of been for just butches, so that they would of been heard, kinda like we do in Femme threads.

Make sense?


I enjoy your thought provoking threads, I really do..

[fatallyblonde]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I agree and BFP is very supportive of them being in this space.

Also, some women actually prefer the term MTF to "transwoman". Both terms are accepted in the trans* community.

I have yet to meet a single trans woman who has said that. Maybe they are on this forum and can correct me, but I have myself been schooled in appropriate terminology by trans women. I also know that the space inbetween trans and woman is important also and considered more correct than transwoman - terminology evolves, especially when it comes to very marginalised and oppressed groups of people. Language imposed by outsiders (MTFs, transwomen) becomes outdated in favour of that defined by the group itself (trans women). I understand that it's easy to be a little bit behind proper terminology on occasion but I'm not making this up and I think part of being considerate to trans women is complying with new forms once aware of them.

I am intensely surprised some of the intelligent members of this community also seem to be unaware of the fact that the same rhetoric used to argue that trans men are still lesbians (!!!!) is the exact same rhetoric used to exclude trans women from women's and lesbian spaces.

This post isn't complete but I have to dash now... I don't think I want to contribute anymore anyway.

[ButchBowWow]

Interesting topic...

Originally Posted by Nat

Over the years I've run into many conversations with people off-site who have hit my radar as butch-ish, but who feel like certain "feminine" traits they possess or express somehow exclude them or distance them from butchness.

I am butch who would some would call 'butch-ish' Nope, what another person thinks of my gender is no longer my concern.

Originally Posted by NAT

Among things I've specifically heard: haircuts, relationship to make-up, pronouns, sexual preferences, wearing women's clothes or undergarments, even prefered roles within a family or relationship, even jobs held.

Yep, I've been told that I am not a butch because of my hair length, I like to fuck and get fucked, I cry at ATT&T commercials, etc.

Originally Posted by NAT

This thread is intended as an opportunity for celebration of the femininity which can co-exist with being a butch. Because I think it's better to celebrate where there has perhaps been some tendency in the direction of shaming in our community and in the greater community.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by NAT

Do you experience gender pressure from other butches or masculine people to amp up your masculinity or tone down your femininity in order to *qualify* as butch? Have you ever found yourself exerting gender pressure on self-identified butches? If you are not butch, have you ever found yourself pressuring butches to behave, dress, etc in more masculine ways than is natural?

I used to but what other humans think of me is of no concern to me. In my younger days, I remember saying things that make me cringe when I think about them. Then I grew up and realized that however someone expresses their gender is not for me to judge or be judged.

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

I guess I personally don't see make up as feminine. I grew up with boys wearing it- goth and punk rock, rock and roll glam... Heavy eyeliner and mascara with peacock hair was dangerous and edgy, not gendered....

I still want Jon Bon Jovi's hair!

Originally Posted by Hey You

Hmm.

I have what barbers call a box cut and a rattail and I wouldn't wear makeup if you paid me, and my wardrobe is certainly not femme in any way. I buy from the men's section as much as possible and go out of my way to not look what I perceive as 'girly'. But part of the reason I.. struggle is the wrong word, but it's the only one my post-gym brain can come up with. Part of the reason I struggle with whether I'm a butch or soft butch or whatever, not that it's exceptionally important but I'd like to know, is a couple of these almost feminine things.
I have taken up lawn bowls. Not exceptionally butch but it is fun and harder than it looks. I balance it out by doing weight lifting. Also much, much fun and so empowering.
I play classical piano. I have no idea where that sits but it is the one thing I will never, ever quit no matter what.
I'm almost a qualified librarian. Make of that what you will.
My biggest dream in the whole world is to have children. I want to get pregnant, give birth and breastfeed. That desire has been with me for YEARS and it's not going away. Is that un-butch? I feel like it's a female desire, but not necessarily a feminine one. After all, as I like to say, getting my period is my concession to being female. I would actually really appreciate people's views on this.

I think that ultimately, for me anyway, my butchness, however much there is of it, comes down to the way I like to present to the world, the way I like to approach dating, and the contents of my fantasies. The way I fill up my life doesn't really form part of that. My brain is mush right now and I think it's not really a black/white issue. Very interesting one, though, thanks for bringing it up.

All of that made sense in my head. Let me know if any of it needs clarifying and I will do it later when my brain wakes back up. Lol.

/Essay over.

I used to listen to those folks when I was in my late 20's-early 30's. I still have people question my butchness. Now in my late 40's I don't give a fuck, I am butch, how you (the general) perceive my gender doesn't really matter to me anymore. Butch is my gender and I may have traits that you (general) deem 'feminine' but it really isn't up to you to define how I 'do' butch.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by fatallyblonde

I have yet to meet a single trans woman who has said that. Maybe they are on this forum and can correct me, but I have myself been schooled in appropriate terminology by trans women. I also know that the space inbetween trans and woman is important also and considered more correct than transwoman - terminology evolves, especially when it comes to very marginalised and oppressed groups of people. Language imposed by outsiders (MTFs, transwomen) becomes outdated in favour of that defined by the group itself (trans women). I understand that it's easy to be a little bit behind proper terminology on occasion but I'm not making this up and I think part of being considerate to trans women is complying with new forms once aware of them.

I am intensely surprised some of the intelligent members of this community also seem to be unaware of the fact that the same rhetoric used to argue that trans men are still lesbians (!!!!) is the exact same rhetoric used to exclude trans women from women's and lesbian spaces.

This post isn't complete but I have to dash now... I don't think I want to contribute anymore anyway.

My language is not outdated. I am a gender therapist. It is what I do for a living. I work with trans* people 5 days a week.

Next.

[Nat]

I did create a thread in the red zone specifically for lesbian love/hate within our community for those who are interested in continuing that conversation

[C0LLETTE]

Bolsheviks vs Mensheviks, Lenin vs Trotsky, Marat vs Sade vs Robespierre, Jefferson vs Hamilton, MLK vs Malcolm X...etc. Seems all "movements have these schisms .
So my question is, Butler vs ?. Is there anyone within this community who cogently presents an antithetical view but is still accepted within the community? It's a small question but I am curious.

[weatherboi]

I agree terminology evolves but sometimes it doesn't matter. People get to choose for themselves.

Originally Posted by fatallyblonde

I have yet to meet a single trans woman who has said that. Maybe they are on this forum and can correct me, but I have myself been schooled in appropriate terminology by trans women. I also know that the space inbetween trans and woman is important also and considered more correct than transwoman - terminology evolves, especially when it comes to very marginalised and oppressed groups of people. Language imposed by outsiders (MTFs, transwomen) becomes outdated in favour of that defined by the group itself (trans women). I understand that it's easy to be a little bit behind proper terminology on occasion but I'm not making this up and I think part of being considerate to trans women is complying with new forms once aware of them.

All my woman friends prefer just being called women. When asked what their preference when being identified as a group they identify as women. Not MTF woman or trans woman just woman. My friends, their preference, and their choice. Qualifiers are clinical and I am not into that. I am the same way. I am a guy and my name is Grant, not trans man Grant or FTM Grant.

I am intensely surprised some of the intelligent members of this community also seem to be unaware of the fact that the same rhetoric used to argue that trans men are still lesbians (!!!!) is the exact same rhetoric used to exclude trans women from women's and lesbian spaces.

I am not sure where anyone here said that men like me are still lesbians. I think someone said if a man like me wants to id as lesbian that it is ok. I understand what you are saying. I just don't see that here.

This post isn't complete but I have to dash now... I don't think I want to contribute anymore anyway.

[stargazingboi]

Originally Posted by C0LLETTE

Bolsheviks vs Mensheviks, Lenin vs Trotsky, Marat vs Sade vs Robespierre, Jefferson vs Hamilton, MLK vs Malcolm X...etc. Seems all "movements have these schisms .
So my question is, Butler vs ?. Is there anyone within this community who cogently presents an antithetical view but is still accepted within the community? It's a small question but I am curious.

I believe there are. However, with any group of people debating one often sees support of each side being debated. Therefore, I have yet to see an opinion so different that a person had no support and alone and ultimately not accepted.

Then again...I could be misreading and not answering your question correctly

[Martina]

Originally Posted by C0LLETTE

Butler vs ?. Is there anyone within this community who cogently presents an antithetical view but is still accepted within the community?

Kobi?

She is presenting like an old-fashioned identity politics feminist right now - although she has a post in which she talked about running into some hard core anti-trans essentialist ones and did not like what she found.

Trying to think who else. The Taliban? I am being facetious, but why would anyone want to reclaim identity politics? They don't make sense. I don't know. I am sure there are people. But the social construction of race and gender are pretty widely accepted, sort of a bedrock social theory.

Maybe biologists and psychologists who study the biological basis of sex and gender? For race, no. There is no other accepted theory.

[C0LLETTE]

Thanks stargazingboi. My q is a straightforward one. I was just wondering if someone had a name of one or two writers/thinkers/academics etc on this topic who present a view different than Butlers on the subject of inclusion/exclusion but were still respected in this community. I'm not presenting a pov just asking for info.

[C0LLETTE]

ok, thanks Martina.

[stargazingboi]

Originally Posted by C0LLETTE

Thanks stargazingboi. My q is a straightforward one. I was just wondering if someone had a name of one or two writers/thinkers/academics etc on this topic who present a view different than Butlers on the subject of inclusion/exclusion but were still respected in this community. I'm not presenting a pov just asking for info.

Ahhh gotcha...when it comes to academics I cant think of anyone off the top of my head that are not respected overall. Perhaps, by individuals that I know but not as a community.

I have to be honest though....I still haven't read anything that was so out there in their view points that the community at large would turned their back.

For me it's the same thing I have heard over and over for years with different words

[Paradox]

This is a great thread because it illustrates the complexity of humanity with the sub category of this community.

There are recent posts where I agree with some and others not at all. However that would be the same for other members as well. It would be difficult for me to provide my opinion without stirring up contention. One main reason to this is how text can be interpreted. The drawback of cyber world.

A concern I have with no boundaries’ policy is leaves too many things up in the air and the lose of meaning. Live and let live yes, as long as no harm is done to another (as in regard to situation with absolutely no choice EX. family one is born into, medical condition, ethnicity etc). This I totally agree. However even with that, I think people forget or do not understand or realize there is price to pay (not necessarily in monetary terms) for every choice you make. Meaning people will not always like or agree with your decisions or chooses and they don’t have to. There is no free ride.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by C0LLETTE

Thanks stargazingboi. My q is a straightforward one. I was just wondering if someone had a name of one or two writers/thinkers/academics etc on this topic who present a view different than Butlers on the subject of inclusion/exclusion but were still respected in this community. I'm not presenting a pov just asking for info.

I pulled some books off my shelf and did a quick google search. I couldn't find anyone in direct opposition. What I came across was others' works that is similar in thought.

If you are interested in gender, you may appreciate Judith Halberstam's Female Masculinity.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Paradox

A concern I have with no boundaries’ policy is leaves too many things up in the air and the lose of meaning.

There isn't a lot of meaning to many identity categories. I read a great book a long time ago about African American identity. The only thing all -- or even most -- African Americans have in common is having experienced the particular form of racism that is directed against African Americans in the United States. Every other thing that one might associate with the identity was not shared by a relatively significant portion of the group.

But being subject to racism does create a shared experience and a bond. On that happy day when there is very little racism against African Americans in this country, what will there be to create the identity African American? Nothing. Individual groups of African Americans will share interests, history, etc. But for the entire group, the only thing they'll have in common is that they chose to check the African American box on a form.

[C0LLETTE]

thank you Dapper Butch.It's much appreciated. I intend to do some reading. TY again.

[Cin]

I want to post cause I found Nat's thread asking about butch femininity pretty awesome. Not the usual stuff. And clearly I am posting because I really want to post in this thread, but I don't know what to say. I see the direction has changed a bit. And I don't know exactly what we are talking about. I'm trying to follow but i'm not sure I get it. I do understand that lots of people are digging it though and feel it's a really great convo. I'm glad. I really like people to be happy and to enjoy themselves. But I'm not sure exactly what it's all about.

However, I got the part about policing boundaries and the importance of softness about the edges. There is always slippage around the borders of things. It stresses some people, makes them anxious. I know we are not speaking geographically here but it is still a good example. The amount of give at borders depends on what you are trying to keep in but often more importantly what you are attempting to keep out. Crossing over from Canada to the US is easier than crossing over from Mexico. But wherever you are placing boundaries they need give. Margins need flexibility.

Personally I think anybody is a lesbian who says they are a lesbian. I think anybody is a butch who says they are a butch. I think anybody is a femme who says they are a femme. If you say you are a woman then you are a woman to me. If you say you are a man, you are a man to me. I respect other people's choices.

I know there are certain requirements that need to be met or words become meaningless and exchanges of ideas impossible because the ground keeps shifting. I suppose you can't just say you are Polish when you don't meet the criteria. But I don't want to be the one to have to tell someone they aren't Polish if they feel they are. I hate killing people's dreams.

I know that not all Muslims are terrorists. I know that some terrorists are radical Islamists. I would never negate someone's personal experience with terrorism perpetrated by radicals who happen to be Muslim by saying they should not talk about their horrible experience with terrorism just because there is way too much Muslim bashing going on. However, if there were a place where Muslims and those who have been victims of terrorism by radical Islamic terrorists shared space it might not be the sanest, safest, or fairest place to hash out prejudices against Muslims. I guess this is a terrible example but I can't think of a different one. I'm just trying to say that here on the Planet I don't think it is possible for lesbians to get a fair shake. Too much water under the bridge. Too much anger at them uppity women.

[C0LLETTE]

Miss Tick,
I know that yours was a serious considered post but I couldn't help laughing at someone dreaming to be Polish. I don't know why that strikes me as so funny but it does. Maybe cause I'm Polish.

[BullDog]

I figure if someone says they are a lesbian it must resonate with them. Otherwise why would they say that? I don't think being a lesbian is really in that high of demand or considered a big status symbol. It's not like saying I want to be a multi millionaire. I see it as an indication of who they see themselves to be and who they view as part of their community. If it turns out they have some nefarious reason it will all come out in the wash.