In Celebration of Butch Femininity

[C0LLETTE]

Miss Tick,
I know that yours was a serious considered post but I couldn't help laughing at someone dreaming to be Polish. I don't know why that strikes me as so funny but it does. Maybe cause I'm Polish.

[BullDog]

I figure if someone says they are a lesbian it must resonate with them. Otherwise why would they say that? I don't think being a lesbian is really in that high of demand or considered a big status symbol. It's not like saying I want to be a multi millionaire. I see it as an indication of who they see themselves to be and who they view as part of their community. If it turns out they have some nefarious reason it will all come out in the wash.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by C0LLETTE

Miss Tick,
I know that yours was a serious considered post but I couldn't help laughing at someone dreaming to be Polish. I don't know why that strikes me as so funny but it does. Maybe cause I'm Polish.

I try to be serious with as much humor as possible. I don't see them as mutually exclusive. And I'm always glad to be responsible for laughter.

[dykeumentary]

This is my latest video about the "gender policing" that happens to butch dykes.
Here's the link, in case i didnt get that right - http://youtu.be/q_58qgPqHqk

[Martina]

Even being Polish can illustrate the point. Think of the just these few ways of being Polish:

1. You grew up in America. Your grandparents on both sides came from Poland. You went to an Orthodox Church. You like pirogi. You do not speak Polish.
   
2. You were born in Ethiopia and adopted by Polish parents. You speak only Polish and are culturally Polish.
   
3. You were born in Poland of Polish parents, but adopted by a Czech couple. You are not culturally Polish. You do not speak the language.
   
4. You are an Israeli Jew whose grandparents came from Poland. Your Rabbi is from a lineage that originated in Poland. You speak no Yiddish and Hebrew. but no Polish
   
5. Your father is a guest worker in Poland, originally from Morocco. You are a teenager and identify as Moroccan because you do not feel accepted in the country of your birth. You speak Polish, Arabic and French.

Is there any one genetic, cultural or linguistic tie that unites all of these people? No. Yet, all of them have good reasons for claiming, or being called, Polish.

The example of some random person claiming to be Polish is a red herring. Those kind of outlier examples do occur -- the guy Bulldog knew in Santa Cruz -- but they are so rare as to be meaningless. We do not have to fear that a lot of people are going to claim lesbian if we do not police it sufficiently.

But the fact is, if we try to claim lesbian means a set of specific things, we will exclude. We have to accept people's self-identification.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Martina

But the fact is, if we try to claim lesbian means a set of specific things, we will exclude. We have to accept people's self-identification.

I will always accept people's self-identification. I can't help but define things for myself. I might figure something means a set of specific things but for me none of those things are set in stone, nor are they the only specific things that might define that particular something. You have a different definition that's cool with me. Why would I want to keep someone from what they feel is their identity? I'm so not interested in policing people's identities. I don't even want to police the definitions of words. I don't care how people define things. To me it doesn't change anything. It might require a bit more communication to understand each other, but nothing wrong with communication.

My wife and I can't even agree if something is blue or purple. It's blue to her, it's purple to me. What possible difference can it make?

[C0LLETTE]

Just for fun:
Yes, some of those people might have a reason for claiming to be Polish but if they tried to get Polish citizenship they would have to meet a stricter set of criteria set out by the Polish government otherwise Poland might be overrun by people wanting to be Polish and "Polish identity" might become an empty unuseful identifier.

That said, I do see where you're going with this.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by C0LLETTE

Just for fun:
Yes, some of those people might have a reason for claiming to be Polish but if they tried to get Polish citizenship they would have to meet a stricter set of criteria set out by the Polish government otherwise Poland might be overrun by people wanting to be Polish and "Polish identity" might become an empty unuseful identifier.

That said, I do see where you're going with this.

All I can say is thank goodness there isn't a Lesbian government or a Butch government or a...just fill in any identifier you would like.

And even without a government of the Republic of Lesbian and people taking the identity of lesbian willy nilly, it still isn't an empty unuseful identifier.

Maybe people can choose for themselves, maybe identities can be stretched without losing their shape and the meaning of the identity completely?

[imperfect_cupcake]

Yeah but if anyone gets to ID as a lesbian, then cats, ham sandwiches and cis men will ID as one.

Sounds an awful lot like

Yeah but if we let gay people get married then people will want to marry their dog and their toaster ovens.


I'm personally not the femme police. I stopped giving a shit about who called themselves a femme years ago. Sincerely. I honestly don't. It does nothing to my person if 1:100000 people claiming femme is a cis man. Cause they won't. They don't have any interest in doing so. Guarding the boundaries of my gender is pointless cause not everyone wants to fucking join.

I really, really don't care. And I know what it's like to be told I'm not a lesbian. It STILL happens. Because some peoples definition is women with physical pussies that like to interact in ways that worship other women's and only other women's physical pussies and nothing but that pussy.

And you have to be gold star. Or you are forever and ever a bisexual.

Guess what though. They get to have that definition of lesbian. And I get to think they are full of shit, roll my eyes and want nothing to do with them and go play with the lesbians who like me to relate to their clitorus as a little female cock and put my fingers in their masculine vag hole. Yum. Or treat that whole area like a big fat dyke dick. With lips.

Or ANY way else they may see their genitalia, I have this magic wand in my head that I can wave and I actually see theirs that way too. It's part of my charm. That and my tits. And sometimes my brain. And my incredible way with words.

I pulled a back muscle and typing this on muscle relaxants is quite interesting. As is reading. It's also really painful so I'm going to stop now. But happy lunar new year! And jolly hard cocking vagina fun for everyone!

[Loren_Q]

With all the meandering about I'm not sure what this thread is about anymore. But the original post resonated with me, so here I go.

I like wearing eyeliner (that smokey eye thing) and shave my legs cause I like the feel. I value empathy and cooperation much more than I value sports or competition. I have long nails (on one hand). I cook well and often.

I value my being female as more important than my being butch (read this as personal, I value in this in myself and am not imposing this on anyone else)

And I'll be having formal tea with a friend while others are having fun with that superbowl thing.

These area the ways I celebrate my butch femininity. YMMV

Have I been pressured to conform to some "Butch ideal" to tone down my femininity? Yes I have, many times, by both butches and femmes. Of late more by femmes.

My response to the pressure is, for the most part, to smile and say "no thank you".

That's it for the OP, but one other thing I feel compelled to say. I don't post often; in part because I don't have anything of value to add but more often because it just doesn't feel safe here.

Too often offense and insult occur, perhaps with good cause, sometimes not. If my opinion is in the minority, it's not safe to voice it, so I don't, and frankly it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

I've felt this the entire time I've been on the planet, and it's okay I just wanted to put it out there. There's nothing to fix, and it's certainly not your job to make feel safe.

So I'll post now and again when I have something of value to add.

[Apocalipstic]

Oh My. Awesome Sunday morning read.

Several thoughts.....Keeping in mind I ID as a Lesbian.

Cats and sandwiches being able to be lesbians if they say they are is problematic on a couple of fronts....
a) I'm not sure about my cat, but I am pretty convinced my last sandwich did not have the ability to critically think and choose a sexual orientation.
b) To me, this argument sounds exactly like..."if gays can marry, then someone will think its OK to marry their goat."

Why do we give a fuck how other people ID, or for that matter...fuck? Why does that in any way affect us.

Why do we care if male IDd Butches flirt with Femmes? Clearly, its up to each individual Femme. Are we saying we poor delicate Femmes can't handle ourselves...or that we should be aghast if male oriented Butches or trans people find us sexy? If I'm on here flirting and talking lingerie or sex stuff...its because I want attention. Period. Hell, at 50, I'm damn glad people find me sexy. Hell Ya!! Female IDd, Male IDd, Femmes.....goats.

People who have a problem with specific groups being on this website and commenting are insecure and jealous and petty and weak and most of all...to quote the always fabulous Arwen...need to worry about what is within their own hula hoops. It continually fills me with wonder as to why people come on this site and get all upset that there are Butches and Femmes here...of all varieties. Look at the name of the fucking site. Gah.

Now.....on to Butch femininity....kisses to Nat!!!
For me...makeup is not a gendered thing and neither are clothes. Is makeup feminine specifically for me? No.
I'm not sure, for me, what I see as Butch feminity? Maybe I don't understand the question. Butch flamboyance? Butch Dandies? Artistic Butches? Butches who wear sequins? Love them all. Is that feminine to me? No. To me, its not gendered. Its Butch because a Butch chose that way to dress or be.

Am I making sense?

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

Why do we care if male IDd Butches flirt with Femmes? Clearly, its up to each individual Femme. Are we saying we poor delicate Femmes can't handle ourselves...or that we should be aghast if male oriented Butches or trans people find us sexy? If I'm on here flirting and talking lingerie or sex stuff...its because I want attention. Period.

I think if it's a thread devoted to femmes and our thoughts about our bodies or what makes us feel sexy, having someone who is not femme come in and make creepy noises is annoying and even triggering for some. Harrassment does exist in our community -- in many forms. And I think we need to say as much. A lot of femmes do respond to those instances with a whoa, can you just go now. It's cool when folks groove on it. But if enough people feel like a jerk just walked into the changing room with her dick in her hand, then, yes, we should say something.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Martina

I think if it's a thread devoted to femmes and our thoughts about our bodies or what makes us feel sexy, having someone who is not femme come in and make creepy noises is annoying and even triggering for some. Harrassment does exist in our community -- in many forms. And I think we need to say as much. A lot of femmes do respond to those instances with a whoa, can you just go now. It's cool when folks groove on it. But if enough people feel like a jerk just walked into the changing room with her dick in her hand, then, yes, we should say something.

Agreed,

What I was trying to say is that we don't need anyone to protect us from male id Butches ogling us. If we don't want someone to ogle us, we can handle it ourselves. A dressing room at least gives the expectation of privacy. The Internet does not.