The RuPaul Drag T*Word Controversy

[anaisninja]

Originally Posted by Martina

RuPaul is a drag queen, not a trans person.

In that case, *He* shouldn't have used the term.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by anaisninja

In that case, *He* shouldn't have used the term.

RuPaul accepts the use of both male and female pronouns. I always refer to people in drag as the gender they are presenting. RuPaul usually presents herself to the public in drag, so I refer to her using female pronouns. As a drag queen, RuPaul is more than entitled to use female pronouns. It's part of the tradition, part of lgbtq history.

RuPaul, as far as I know, is a cisgender gay man, and I agree with you and with Dapper than she should not be using the word "tranny."

I looked up the she-male/mail thing, and I guess the show actually used the term "she-male" as well. I think that is a term no one should use. I can't even imagine transwomen using it among themselves in a friendly inoffensive way. There would always be a barb to it. I just thought it was funny when the phrase "You've got she-mail" was used. But I guess they used the regular version in another context on the show. No. Don't think they should do that.

[imperfect_cupcake]

So if someone is bigendered and not transsexual, they aren't transgendered? I thought transgendered was all kinds of rainbow. Has the meaning changed again? The "drag queens" I knew all considered themselves bigendered. Having two genders that don't display as congruent to their societal norm sex.
This is not transgendered anymore? Is transexual the only transgendered meaning in the US?

[stargazingboi]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

So if someone is bigendered and not transsexual, they aren't transgendered? I thought transgendered was all kinds of rainbow. Has the meaning changed again? The "drag queens" I knew all considered themselves bigendered. Having two genders that don't display as congruent to their societal norm sex.
This is not transgendered anymore? Is transexual the only transgendered meaning in the US?

No Honeybarbara, I'm here in the US and tend to follow the medical definition of the word. I do this mainly because of my vocational back ground and the fact I, myself, happen to be TG. That being said...and as we have witnessed on this site, there are many interpretations of words.


Webster Dictionary - Medical terminology

Transgender - of, relating to, or being a person who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person's sex at birth

Transexual - A person who strongly identifies with the opposite gender and who chooses to live as a member of the opposite gender or to become one by surgery.


So, when I think about it a transexual fall under both terms, but a person who is TG does not always fall under the term transexual. Now, when looking at the definition of Drag Queen ...it does not fall under either term listed above. A Drag Queen or Drag King is a person that dresses as the opposite sex for entertainment


Now regarding the actual subject at hand...I am still unsure how I want to word my feelings about the subject and will return to express it later.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I know people in the uk who both ID as a drag queen and a drag king and it it part of their bigenderism. And although some of them perform, they'd be pretty suprised to find out that one of their genders is only for entertainment value.

I don't agree with that, even slightly. But I don't understand a lot of labeling in the US...

To me tg is not ts. Two different things. But they seem to have both become tg in mainstream press.

And even that definition from Miriam Webster screws up sex and gender.

[stargazingboi]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

And even that definition from Miriam Webster screws up sex and gender.

very true the Webster Dictionary is not fool proof because it is written by humans, but its a guideline.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

I know people in the uk who both ID as a drag queen and a drag king and it it part of their bigenderism. And although some of them perform, they'd be pretty suprised to find out that one of their genders is only for entertainment value.

I don't agree with that, even slightly. But I don't understand a lot of labeling in the US...

To me tg is not ts. Two different things. But they seem to have both become tg in mainstream press.

And even that definition from Miriam Webster screws up sex and gender.

That's ironic. This may be one way in which the UK is more gender-struck than we are. Usually, it goes the other way.

I have known a lot of gay male drag queens who never questioned their (cis)gender. I don't think that makes their drag persona just for entertainment value. They may identify strongly with it and still feel like cismen. Think of all the men over the decades who strongly identified with opera divas. Some may have been transgender. But most, I imagine, were not. There are many ways to be a man. I don't know. Maybe it's my age. But I have known very few gay men (not trans gay men) who ever ID'd as transgender.

Even if you look at all gender as a performance, even if you look at a drag queen and a transwoman standing side by side and see little difference in their outward presentation, they are different, very different. (I know that some transwomen DO do drag.) But drag is, well, different. I am sure you have seen as much drag as I have. But it's nothing like the way a transwoman presents in her daily life, IMO.

Some drag queens will have a moment in their performance when they drop their voice or do some physical gesture that reveals their masculine identity (sometimes a gesture toward the crotch to remind you there is a little something extra there). I guess it's to remind you that it IS drag. It's usually a delightful moment. Drag is so different from cross-dressing -- not a fetish -- and from being trans. There is a lot of hostility for drag queens from some transwomen. The "I am NOT a drag queen" thing. And they aren't. They aren't in drag.

I love drag. I think most drag queens are proud of being drag queens and also proud of being men.

There are clearly a lot more trans and transgender folk among drag kings.

[candy_coated_bitch]

I have known a lot of drag queens that DO identify as gender variant in some way. I think it's presumptuous to say that most drag queens are really just cis men in women's clothing and completely unrelated to trans women. (Not that anyone used those exact words, it's just my reaction.) I am not trying to say that the two are the SAME--but why do trans women have more of a right to name themselves tranny than a drag queen? I consider that historically drag queens have been pioneers in the LGBTQ rights movement from Stonewall on--and a huge part of that has been BECAUSE of blurring the lines of gender. Yes, there is a performance aspect of it--but not always.

I think trans________, however you may or may not end that word, is a wide and diverse group of people. Tranny has long been used before the word and concept of transgender as we know it now even existed. In my opinion, it has as much history and importance of reclamation as queer, dyke, faggot (and no I also do not agree that that is an off limits word as well), bitch, cunt, nigger, and so on and so forth. I think the reclaiming of language is important and powerful. It can be a liberating and powerful experience.

Also--how the fuck do we know how Ru Paul feels about his/her gender and what pronouns he/she may or may not use? To put the label of cis man on him BECAUSE he is a drag queen seems questionable to me. Ru Paul hasn't said much on the issue, but what I did read when he finally came out and addressed the issue was "fuck anybody who wants to police my language". Amen to that, I say. Just because a person spends SOME time living and identifying as a man I don't think it negates the time they spend living, identifying, performing, and embodying another gender if that is meaningful to them. I don't know specifically what Ru Paul's gendered experiences are but I am not going to make a judgment about what words are appropriate for him to use. I think drag queens absolutely can fall into the trans* and gender variant experience.

I use the word tranny. Not always, not with all people--but I do have trans friends I use it with. Just like I have gay friends I use the word fag with. On trans pride day we wish each other "Happy tranny day!"

I have been following the discussion online and I find it extremely ironic that the loudest voices in opposition to the use of the word tranny are cis folks. Not folks from the drag community, not trans women--CIS FOLKS. Things that make you go hmmm.

This is one really good viedo I liked on the pro tranny side, or at least one that allows for that view:

[Martina]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

they aren't transgendered? I thought transgendered was all kinds of rainbow.

Duck! She used the word "transgendered."

Pet peeve of mine -- the meaningless debate over what is wrong with transgenderED and why transgender is better.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joanne..._b_492922.html