"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[Isadora]

I was rather insulted. As a femme who grew up with these terms being referred to as "antiquated" just thrills me. It smacks of ageism to me. Although I understand and accept that a new generation may not resonate with these terms, to dismiss them as old and tired is disrespectful of those who have lived with these terms for most of our queer lives, well all of My queer life.

Now, if it was worded that we have added to our vocabulary rather then having a new generation of terms that dismiss a whole generation of elderish b/f's, I would have not felt so written off.

As a partner, for going on 22 years, who is a POC, I asked hym what terms hy resonates with and hy said, "I am butch. I do not use other words (stud, aggressive, etc.) because it is not my generation. Accepting new terms is a good thing but not at the expense of dismissing others."

It was also interesting to me that to me it was never a "label" it was an expression of my inner self, a part of who I was growing up as a young femme.

So, I know the discussion was around a video about butch/aggressive/stud id's, what are the new terms for femme? I did not see ONE discussion on this aspect of our descriptors. Or did I miss something (heh, I am an OLD femme, I miss a lot of things!)?

It is interesting to me that both we as elders (over 55) and those who are young (under 30) must deal with the ageism that is inherent in our culture...so the elder are antiquated for our language and the youngers dismissed for theirs...when in reality there is nothing that says we can't celebrate them all.


*looks around for a helping hand down off my soapbox*

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Isadora

I was rather insulted. As a femme who grew up with these terms being referred to as "antiquated" just thrills me. It smacks of ageism to me. Although I understand and accept that a new generation may not resonate with these terms, to dismiss them as old and tired is disrespectful of those who have lived with these terms for most of our queer lives, well all of My queer life.

Now, if it was worded that we have added to our vocabulary rather then having a new generation of terms that dismiss a whole generation of elderish b/f's, I would have not felt so written off.

As a partner, for going on 22 years, who is a POC, I asked hym what terms hy resonates with and hy said, "I am butch. I do not use other words (stud, aggressive, etc.) because it is not my generation. Accepting new terms is a good thing but not at the expense of dismissing others."

It was also interesting to me that to me it was never a "label" it was an expression of my inner self, a part of who I was growing up as a young femme.

So, I know the discussion was around a video about butch/aggressive/stud id's, what are the new terms for femme? I did not see ONE discussion on this aspect of our descriptors. Or did I miss something (heh, I am an OLD femme, I miss a lot of things!)?

It is interesting to me that both we as elders (over 55) and those who are young (under 30) must deal with the ageism that is inherent in our culture...so the elder are antiquated for our language and the youngers dismissed for theirs...when in reality there is nothing that says we can't celebrate them all.

Great post Isadora. Perhaps the person making the point about masculine being placed in higher regard than the feminine might have a point.

Also interesting to note that many feel Femme is a gender. Butch too. How on earth can a gender be antiquated? I mean, if we are going to do that let's do away with Male/Female first!

[Jett]

I must have totally missed something which wouldn't be anything new, could someone pls point me (by # what-ever)to the post that said they were "antiquated"?

[MsMerrick]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I must have totally missed something which wouldn't be anything new, could someone pls point me (by # what-ever)to the post that said they were "antiquated"?

Yeah what Met said...... ( and I notice was ignored... )

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by MsMerrick

Yeah what Met said...... ( and I notice was ignored... )

Ignored seems to suggest it was intentional, and I'm uncertain of the relevance of that. Is there some? Relevance, that is? I'm simply trying to determine what it is you're trying to contribute here.

Regardless of what was said elsewhere, this is a compelling thread here.

[MsMerrick]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Ignored seems to suggest it was intentional, and I'm uncertain of the relevance of that. Is there some? Relevance, that is? I'm simply trying to determine what it is you're trying to contribute here.

Regardless of what was said elsewhere, this is a compelling thread here.

Based on a false presumption that some Thread, on another site, suggested that Butch & Femme, are antiquated terms.
I ma not big on trashing through false inference.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by MsMerrick

Based on a false presumption that some Thread, on another site, suggested that Butch & Femme, are antiquated terms.
I ma not big on trashing through false inference.

Merrick,

I honestly cannot understand why you would insist that I am intentionally "trashing" or "falsely representing" a thread on the other site when I have clearly explained that my read of those terms translated to what I wrote. I was going to ask if you missed my posts where I explained myself but it seems that you didnt, this gives me even more pause because you are still insisting that I am trashing by falsely representing here? I havent heard "Liar, Liar, pants on fire" in a while but I read it reallllll well.

Just a refresher: When I read the title of the thread "Old Terms in a New Age", I heard "old" juxtaposed with "new age" as in "outdated", "antiquated".
I promise you there was no nefarious intent when I parsed "old" into "antiquated" when I am talking about this issue.

I asked a question. That is not trashing a site or a thread, no matter how many times its said. This was my way of trying to have a new conversation that had nothing to do with the video that was posted there (however great it was!). I merely wanted people's read on how the terms Butch or Femme might be seen as antiquated/old and their thoughts on that. THAT was my thought process, nothing more.

a

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by MsMerrick

Yeah what Met said...... ( and I notice was ignored... )

Some days I SWEAR I check to see if its a full moon before I post.

Ok, I used "antiquated" as a way to parse the term "OLD" into what I was feeling was being said. I should have been more clear. My bad.

The verbatim, word-for-word was "Old Terms".

and just as a sidenote: whether you were talking to me or not about something being "ignored", I have been up since 6am cleaning house and have been on and off of this site all day answering emails, reported posts, and private messages, so if something is asked or said and I dont respond or reply, its prrrrooooobbbbbaabbbbblllyyyy because I just didnt see it.

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Some days I SWEAR I check to see if its a full moon before I post.

Ok, I used "antiquated" as a way to parse the term "OLD" into what I was feeling was being said. I should have been more clear. My bad.

The verbatim, word-for-word was "Old Terms".

and just as a sidenote: whether you were talking to me or not about something being "ignored", I have been up since 6am cleaning house and have been on and off of this site all day answering emails, reported posts, and private messages, so if something is asked or said and I dont respond or reply, its prrrrooooobbbbbaabbbbblllyyyy because I just didnt see it.

I don't think it was directed toward You....NONE of us responded to it. But then, while I have responded to a couple or 3, I haven't responded to everyone who's posted here.

And I got it, too, that, when You put the term in "quotes", that COULD have been interpreted as Your word......

[BullDog]

I'm just trying to follow the conversation.

[MsMerrick]

Originally Posted by Diva

I don't think it was directed toward You....NONE of us responded to it. But then, while I have responded to a couple or 3, I haven't responded to everyone who's posted here.

...

You would be correct, as far as I was concerned, it was directed at everyone...

[MsMerrick]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Some days I SWEAR I check to see if its a full moon before I post.

Ok, I used "antiquated" as a way to parse the term "OLD" into what I was feeling was being said. I should have been more clear. My bad.

The verbatim, word-for-word was "Old Terms".

and just as a sidenote: whether you were talking to me or not about something being "ignored", I have been up since 6am cleaning house and have been on and off of this site all day answering emails, reported posts, and private messages, so if something is asked or said and I dont respond or reply, its prrrrooooobbbbbaabbbbblllyyyy because I just didnt see it.

You referenced Some Thread, on Some Other site.
I presume BF.com
That was not what was said, on BF.com, using that word or any other word
I have no issue with some general Thread, discussing whether or not Butch & Femme, are antiquated Terms, though why one would think they were, I don't know.
I do object to trashing of and falsely representing, the "other" site.
Call me old fashioned and antiquated, but I object to falsehoods.

[suebee]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Some days I SWEAR I check to see if its a full moon before I post.

Ok, I used "antiquated" as a way to parse the term "OLD" into what I was feeling was being said. I should have been more clear. My bad.
The verbatim, word-for-word was "Old Terms".

and just as a sidenote: whether you were talking to me or not about something being "ignored", I have been up since 6am cleaning house and have been on and off of this site all day answering emails, reported posts, and private messages, so if something is asked or said and I dont respond or reply, its prrrrooooobbbbbaabbbbblllyyyy because I just didnt see it.

Ah. Thanks for the clarification. I was wondering about that.

[Duchess]

I have never put much energy into thinking about other people's choices unless they directly affect me. I think growing up in a multicultural home taught me tolerance for diversity as I exited the womb.

Femme fits perfectly for me because the term is a HUGE umbrella. There are so many layers to me, I can't simply identify as Transensual Femme, Stone Femme, etc....Being Femme or Butch is complex. There's no one way to do it.

If this ideaology doesn't work for the next person that's cool, because there's only one Duchess (thank God) and there's only one you. The important thing is to follow your instinct and not stay within the lines for definition's sake.


Duchess

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by cybersuebee

Ah. Thanks for the clarification. I was wondering about that.

And actually, the more I thought about it I shouldnt even have said "parsed" because that implies that I changed the meaning somehow. I think I should have said "used the word as I interpreted it".

And just for the record: From Dictionary.com

antiquated - 4 dictionary results
an⋅ti⋅quat⋅ed  /ˈæntɪˌkweɪtɪd/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [an-ti-kwey-tid] Show IPA
Use antiquated in a Sentence
See web results for antiquated
See images of antiquated
–adjective 1. continued from, resembling, or adhering to the past; old-fashioned: antiquated attitudes.
2. no longer used; obsolete or obsolescent: The spinning wheel is an antiquated machine.
3. aged; old:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is why I couldnt really wrap my head around the idea of intentionally misrepresenting something as "antiquated" when it essentially means the same thing as "old" in the context in which I presented it. Language, a tricky tricky thing.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Isadora

So, I know the discussion was around a video about butch/aggressive/stud id's, what are the new terms for femme?

A question for self-clarification: I thought that Aggressive/Stud IDs were POC terms/references (albeit it newer)?

And I don't think they are antiquated any more than human, man, woman, etc. are. I think they are still valid terms today and just as important as they were previously. I think it is interesting that these are not the only terms and that the spectrum of who we can love based on a variety of things that that person brings to the table (not just gender ID but their whole proverbial alphabet) is a wonderful thing.

I do believe, however, that we have to be careful not to minimize the importance of the "labels" and yet, not strictly define someone by their labels. It is a balancing act that we often forget, IMO.

[Isadora]

Originally Posted by Linus

A question for self-clarification: I thought that Aggressive/Stud IDs were POC terms/references (albeit it newer)?

And I don't think they are antiquated any more than human, man, woman, etc. are. I think they are still valid terms today and just as important as they were previously. I think it is interesting that these are not the only terms and that the spectrum of who we can love based on a variety of things that that person brings to the table (not just gender ID but their whole proverbial alphabet) is a wonderful thing.

I do believe, however, that we have to be careful not to minimize the importance of the "labels" and yet, not strictly define someone by their labels. It is a balancing act that we often forget, IMO.

I asked Schon about these terms and Schon said they were never terms used in hys community growing up. Some of this may be terms related to cultural geography. As Schon says, growing up in Minneapolis as a young black butch in the 80's could be totally different for someone growing up in New York. Like Diva pointed out we are evolutionary and our descriptors change as we change...which is a very good thing.

Hard to believe I have been out for OMG almost 35 years. Almost 40 if I count coming out at 16 and then stepping back in for a few years!

I think we, on the most part, are great walkers of the balance beam of life.

[Selenay]

Yes, they are dying terms.

Sorry, y'all.

-The 20 Year Old *




N.B. This is just MY experience as a New York lesbian who has been out for 7 years, and "femme" for three of those years. My experiences do not serve as a model for all of the queer world, but are just one window into the New York youth scene.

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Selenay

Yes, they are dying terms.

Sorry, y'all.

-The 20 Year Old *




N.B. This is just MY experience as a New York lesbian who has been out for 7 years, and "femme" for three of those years. My experiences do not serve as a model for all of the queer world, but are just one window into the New York youth scene.

OMG this just made me giggle.......

It's not dead yet because I am still alive........and THEN, when I am dead, You can personally try and pry my Femme Papers out of my cold, dead, finely manicured fingers.........


......but not until then, little whippersnapper! <~ ~ I'm WINKING, everyone!

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Selenay

Yes, they are dying terms.

Sorry, y'all.

-The 20 Year Old *




N.B. This is just MY experience as a New York lesbian who has been out for 7 years, and "femme" for three of those years. My experiences do not serve as a model for all of the queer world, but are just one window into the New York youth scene.

Right. The hubris of the "youth scene" (not speaking to you directly, Selenay - merely borrowing your term). What they determine in the now, is the forever shall be.

Thankfully, that's not true.

For if that were true, we would no longer listen to classical music or value certain forms of art.

Because there is nothing new under the sun, and everything old becomes new again, it's safe to assume that just because one generation doesn't use or relate to certain terms that they will "die." They may be out of mode for a certain age group, but that hardly heralds death.

New York is ahead of the curve in most things, additionally there is enormous racial diversity so POC terms for identity are more likely to be adopted and heard. But that while young queers in the 5 boroughs (and parts of Jersey, yo) might not be identifying as butch or femme, there is the great American hinterland still to consider. I doubt there will be sweeping change in which the terms butch and femme cease to exist. I believe, as SuperFemme stated, that there is room for all.

If, by process of cultural evolution butch and femme get put on the shelf (until they make a comeback with the third wave of hippie fashion), I would hope that at least it is done with respect to the space they carved to make way for that evolution, and the relative freedom young queers in America experience.

I think these explorations and deconstructions are part of the process of our queer evolution, but to be dismissive of one's history and those who came before is short-sighted and arrogant.

Still, I disbelieve in the demise. If the term doesn't fit, don't wear it.