"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[Words]

Originally Posted by Selenay

Butch and femme will never disappear, it's not an atlantis, but I don't think that it will maintain itself forever in the current incarnation.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by ''the current incarnation'' Selenay. Could you clarify please? Thanks.

Words

[Gemme]

Dead, dying, on life support or not, I like the terms butch and femme. They feel good in my mouth. They feel right. For me. For someone else, even if they look and act very much like I do, maybe not so much. As Arwen and some others touched on, you can only define yourself and the terms for yourself. Let others define themselves and the terms appropriate for them.

Gemme-Prefers 'on vacation' to dead, dying or life support

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Selenay

You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.

While you may not hear harpsichord music on z100, there is still music being composed for the harpsichord, and there are, like um, a bazillion more radio stations (and satellite!) than z100.

Perhaps it's true 80% of the people at an "extremely queer" school that offers G/L studies as a major don't know what the butch/femme dynamic is. I would expect that to probably be true just about anywhere. What would be pathetic, however, is if those numbers were reflected in said G/L program. You can't study a thing without knowing its history.

It seems unlikely to me that things have changed so much in the past year since I moved from New York. When I spoke to a group of high school students in Manhattan about gender identity, though they were every single one of them POC, at least half knew the terms butch and femme, and of course, now all of them know it, thanks to me. (*pat pat*)

Once again, I disbelieve that "if the youth doesn't embrace a term it will die." That statement is myopic, at best. Why do so many terms and fashions become reborn? Why do ancient religions, art and musical forms survive? In part because the young don't exist in a void, We're still here, telling our stories, writing them down, passing them on. Our youth are fundamental to change and growth, but they also grab hold of a thing, sometimes a piece of the past, an out dated fashion, and make it new again.

I welcome whatever new language comes into use, but I don't think it will be at the exclusion of "old" terms for identity. No, we're not going to start speaking Latin, but consider how many of our languages would be different, or non-existent if not for Latin.

These terms come about because they signify who we are - that's not going to change. Historically, lot of young queers follow the androgynous route as they "find" themselves (just because they ID as "genderqueer" today, doesn't mean they always will). Other terms may come about to speak to evolved identities, but that doesn't herald the erasure of butch and femme.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

can someone put into laymans terms what antiquated means so I can understand, when I looked it up it confused me, I ain't the smartest ya know!!!!

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy

can someone put into laymans terms what antiquated means so I can understand, when I looked it up it confused me, I ain't the smartest ya know!!!!

I was reading "antiquated" as "old" or "out of date"

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Originally Posted by Medusa

I was reading "antiquated" as "old" or "out of date"

Ty Medusa

I don't see them as old or outdated,just as terms we use to describe ourselves. There are the other variations of butch and femme, like Stone Butch, Stone Femme, etc but to me those are still adjectives.

[BullDog]

Yes, sorry Medusa for my initial confusion. I wasn't questioning your motives. To me this conversation is a very different topic than the video or other conversation, that was why I was initially confused. But totally get you used it as a jumping off point to start a conversation.

Also seems some confusion on the other site. Stud is not a new term used by a younger generation. It's been around for quite some time.

Anyway, if anyone wants to see Q's video it is very cool. Here is the link to her site:

http://q-roc.tv

The video is at the top of page: Excuse Me Sir: Gender Identity

To me the video is about Studs talking about breaking down gender stereotypes.

EDIT: There is actually more than one video. The one I saw before was part 2 on Stereotypes. Part 3 is at top of page now. Anyway, cool beans more videos for me to watch.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Yes, sorry Medusa for my initial confusion. I wasn't questioning your motives. To me this conversation is a very different topic than the video or other conversation, that was why I was initially confused. But totally get you used it as a jumping off point to start a conversation.

Also seems some confusion on the other site. Stud is not a new term used by a younger generation. It's been around for quite some time.

Anyway, if anyone wants to see Q's video it is very cool. Here is the link to her site:

http://q-roc.tv

The video is at the top of page: Excuse Me Sir: Gender Identity

To me the video is about Studs talking about breaking down gender stereotypes.

I agree Stud is not a new term and has been used since at least the 70s.
It is also not a term specific to POC.
Love the video!

[LieslKate]

Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy

can someone put into laymans terms what antiquated means so I can understand, when I looked it up it confused me, I ain't the smartest ya know!!!!

if anyone has answered this 'cause I've not finished all the pages of the Thread... basically if something is 60+ years old its considered an antique... me in SIX.FIVE years !!!!!!!!!! So something that is an antique or antiquated ( the adjective conjugation or discriptive version of the word antique ) is older than that... the Butch/Femme social/sexual dynamic fits that !

I am happy to be an antiquated FEMME Lesbian...

[Selenay]

Originally Posted by Words

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by ''the current incarnation'' Selenay. Could you clarify please? Thanks.

Words

The current incarnation would be butch and femme.

I think that these identities will evolve, and help to shape something else (perhaps andro, perhaps genderqueer, perhaps new wave femme.) I don't think that they will be wiped off the face of the queer planet, but will change and evolve and become something completely different than they are now: a new incarnation.


Hope that helped.

[Just_G]

Like the avacado appliances from the 70's that are coming back again, so will the terms butch and femme some day after they have been unused for a while.

I know my "label" changes somewhat depending on who I am in the company of. When in Dallas with my buddies down there, they consider me a Stud. When around my andro friends here in KC, I am a lesbian....of which I prefer Queer, and when I am around the likes of all you hooligans , I am Butch. My very favorite way to identify. It is what I am, it is who I am, and it is what my tattoo says.

I really think that the terms Butch and Femme will never be dead. Like Diva said, I will take those terms to my grave too, and I don't plan on going anywhere any time soon!

p.s. Jack, love your tool analogy....

[tmbyfem]

Butch/femme antiquated?? Maybe to some, but I prefer the term "classic".

Any reading of queer/lesbian history will show that the butch/femme dynamic has been around long before those specifc words were attached to it. The "cultural" feminists in the 70's declared it "dead" and yet B/F dynamics had a resurgance in the 80's and 90's.

Connecting with that energy and history was like a second coming out for me. First I came out as a lesbian, then a few years later as femme. Call it whatever you wish but for me, personally, to have my ID declared "dead" is rather dismissive of all those who went before us and seems ignorant of the past that brought us here to this point in time.

Originally Posted by Blue_Vegan_Daddy-O

Diva... HAPPY GAY BIRTHDAY ...this is my 20th year of being Gay too!!!

Hey!! It'll be my 20th anniversary next year too!! Time for some cake!!

[QueenofQueens]

Listen to Shirley and learn...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTUIHK7gHRE"]YouTube- Propellerheads - History Repeating (1997) â–ºSTEREOâ—„[/ame]

Be who you are, regardless of fashion's edict or academia's clarion cry.

[PapaC]

So when do I get to declare all just a fad? or better it...

it's just a phase

[Jet]

I'm in my 49th year of "cognizant" queer-dom..lol....I knew at four I was different and felt like a boy at five. Believe it or not, my nickname as a child was "Butch" given to me by mom of all people. I'll never change that or the fact that I'm attracted to femmes and all the beauty which that implies for me.

[WolfyOne]

This is a wonderful thread and it's been quite interesting reading everyones take on this subject.

[Apocalipstic]

I have been out for 25 years.

Butch and Femme as terms were completely out of style in my 20's and I lost many friends because I insisted on looking girly. Being andro was popular.

Butch Femme as terms were completely out of style though my 30's. Being andro was popular. I lost friends for dating BullDykes.

Around the time I turned 40, there were 2 or 3 years it was uber cool to be Butch or Femme...Fabulous!

Now, again...being Butch and Femme is out and I am back to being a failure as a Lesbian.

Ehhhhh.

I did try to "andro it up" a few times when I was younger. I still looked pretty damn girly.

I am fine with whatever terms anyone uses, I just have not noticed new terms for Femmes? Are we passé?

[Jet]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I have been out for 25 years.

Butch and Femme as terms were completely out of style in my 20's and I lost many friends because I insisted on looking girly. Being andro was popular.

Butch Femme as terms were completely out of style though my 30's. Being andro was popular. I lost friends for dating BullDykes.

Around the time I turned 40, there were 2 or 3 years it was uber cool to be Butch or Femme...Fabulous!

Now, again...being Butch and Femme is out and I am back to being a failure as a Lesbian.

Ehhhhh.

I did try to "andro it up" a few times when I was younger. I still looked pretty damn girly.

I am fine with whatever terms anyone uses, I just have not noticed new terms for Femmes? Are we passé?

too funny...too cute

I swear of this continues I'm going to be a gay man when I transition with crush on Robert Downy Jr.