Turkey shoots down Russian War plane

Uli · 11-24-2015, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

What I can't understand is why the US and the West continues to support the countries that fund and arm the terrorists that attack the West.

As much as I hate the idea, and as much as I avoid conspiracy theories in an effort to preserve my mental health, I really think it has to do with the oil-related wealth of some very powerful people, people whose greed completely overrides their ethics.

But, I would really like someone to convince me that I'm wrong.

Cin · 11-24-2015, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uli

As much as I hate the idea, and as much as I avoid conspiracy theories in an effort to preserve my mental health, I really think it has to do with the oil-related wealth of some very powerful people, people whose greed completely overrides their ethics.

But, I would really like someone to convince me that I'm wrong.

I have a hard time believing it's about oil or just oil. And I would love someone to convince me I'm wrong as well. It makes me feel sick. I wish it was just some conspiracy theory that I could ignore as the ranting of some paranoid nut, but it is well documented that these countries who are allies of the US fund these terrorist groups. There is no denying that. It would be like denying that the US funded right wing paramilitary forces in Central America to stop left wing revolutionaries.

Kätzchen · 11-24-2015, 12:14 PM

I think this issue, alone and fueled by other not so transparent issues, is going to be the biggest deal breaker we've seen since prior world wars and subsequent wars over resources such as, but not limited to: Land, Water, Food, energy rights, cultural rights (.....).

Cin · 11-24-2015, 01:32 PM

Interesting article about the dangers of a no-fly zone over Syria.

The Syrian no-fly risk: The 2016 candidates should explain why they want to chance a disaster
The downing of a Russian jet over Syria highlights the risk posed by a no-fly zone, which most 2016 candidates want

The big news this morning for those following the “hey we’re all spiraling towards World War III” beat is the downing of a Russian fighter jet by the Turkish air force after it crossed into Turkey’s air space overnight. Russia’s intervention in the Syrian civil war threw an added layer of chaos and confusion into the conflict, given that Russia, while ostensibly targeting everyone’s shared enemy in the Islamic State, has also been striking rebel groups who oppose Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad. Turkey, which backs anti-Assad rebels in Syria, has been warning Russia to stop encroaching on its airspace and cease conducting airstrikes on civilian populations nearby the Turkish border.

Last night, a Russian plane violated Turkish airspace after repeated warnings and was shot down by two Turkish F-16s. The Russian pilots ejected and, according initial reports, one was killed by militants on the ground in Syria while the other was captured. Turkey is defending its actions and an emergency meeting of NATO has been called to discuss the incident. Vladimir Putin said the loss of the plane is “linked with a stab in our back delivered by terrorism accomplices.” The chances for further escalation seem remote, but it’s a tense reminder of how dangerous it is to have so many powerful countries operating on different sides of a nasty proxy conflict.

As far as this incident pertains to U.S. politics, it should pose some difficult questions for the 2016 presidential candidates who favor deepened American involvement in the Syrian conflict and the establishment of a no-fly zone over Syria. This is position of most of the Republican presidential contenders, with Rand Paul, Ted Cruz, and Donald Trump being the only exceptions. On the Democratic side, Hillary Clinton backs the establishment of a Syrian no-fly zone, while Bernie Sanders and Martin O’Malley stand with the White House in rejecting the idea.

The reasons to oppose a no-fly zone were many and varied before Russia started its bombing campaign. But now that Russian planes are patrolling the skies over Syria, the establishment of a no-fly zone would put the United States in the position of having to potentially fire on Russian jets. Putin and his military commanders have already demonstrated that they’re willing to be reckless and provocative when it comes to violating the airspace of NATO countries. Putting American planes in the position of policing the skies over Syria increases the chances – either by deliberate provocation or horrible accident – of a shooting war breaking out between the United States and Russia. Turkey’s downing of a Russian aircraft demonstrates how real that possibility is.

Up to this point, there’s hasn’t been a ton of attention paid to the fact that so many would-be presidents are itching for the chance to potentially escalate the Syrian civil war into something much, much worse. Hillary Clinton was lightly challenged on this point at the Democratic debate in October, when O’Malley explained that a no-fly zone “could lead to an escalation because of an accident that we would deeply regret.” Rachel Maddow asked Clinton if she would shoot down a Russian jet that violated her no-fly zone, and she dodged the question as a “hypothetical,” going on to explain that imposing such a zone “doesn’t mean that you shoot at every aircraft that might violate it the first or second time.”

The Republicans have, predictably, been much more hawkish in their imagined showdown with Russia over Syrian airspace. Marco Rubio’s new plan for defeating the Islamic State calls for no-fly zones and “safe zones” in Syria as part of a broader effort to topple Assad, and he writes “I would oppose Russia and Iran in their fight to prolong Assad’s brutal regime.” CNBC’s John Harwood asked Rubio what he would do if Russia violated the no-fly zone, and Rubio expressed confidence that that would never happen because “I don’t think it’s in the Russians’ interest to engage in an armed conflict with the United States.” If it did happen, though, Rubio said “you’re going to have a problem, but that would be no different than any other adversary.”

Jeb Bush is similarly dismissive of the threat of escalation. “The argument is, well we’ll get into the conflict with Russia,” he told Charlie Rose last month, “maybe Russia shouldn’t want to be in conflict with us.” Chris Christie, in his gasbaggy way, said he’d set up the no-fly zone and then phone Putin to tell him “don’t test me.”

There’s a lot of bluster and muscle-flexing going on that, as the Turkish incident shows, could have potentially catastrophic consequences. It’s not enough for a candidate to just promise that everything will work out because they’ll be “strong” or show “resolve” or whatever vacant buzzword is masquerading for foreign policy these days. They’re actively courting a disaster.

http://www.salon.com/2015/11/24/the_...ce_a_disaster/

Rockinonahigh · 11-24-2015, 03:50 PM

I pray there will be saner minds to keep the peace, this is not good

11-24-2015, 12:14 PM	#3
Kätzchen Member How Do You Identify?: Femme Join Date: May 2010 Location: @ home with my granddaughter, chosen friends & family. ツ Posts: 16,137 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 29,544 Thanked 33,565 Times in 10,676 Posts Rep Power: 21474868	I think this issue, alone and fueled by other not so transparent issues, is going to be the biggest deal breaker we've seen since prior world wars and subsequent wars over resources such as, but not limited to: Land, Water, Food, energy rights, cultural rights (.....). __________________ “The way someone treats you is not a reflection of your worth: It’s a reflection of their emotional capacity,” ~ Jillian Turecki. “The work that is called for is the construction of our “More Perfect Union”(Obama). That job will never ever be completed: it’s one that requires rigorous attention and unfading wherewithal and all hands. The work is the keeping of the promises of our promised land. The practice of decency, the protection of freedom, and the promotion of liberty for all. With no exceptions. That takes a lot of work done on multiple job sites, every single day. And you can call each of them a battle for truth, justice and the American way,” — Tom Hanks.

11-24-2015, 01:32 PM	#4
Cin Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Butch Preferred Pronoun?: she Relationship Status: Truly Madly Deeply Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: In My Head Posts: 2,815 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 6,333 Thanked 10,409 Times in 2,477 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	Interesting article about the dangers of a no-fly zone over Syria. The Syrian no-fly risk: The 2016 candidates should explain why they want to chance a disaster The downing of a Russian jet over Syria highlights the risk posed by a no-fly zone, which most 2016 candidates want The big news this morning for those following the “hey we’re all spiraling towards World War III” beat is the downing of a Russian fighter jet by the Turkish air force after it crossed into Turkey’s air space overnight. Russia’s intervention in the Syrian civil war threw an added layer of chaos and confusion into the conflict, given that Russia, while ostensibly targeting everyone’s shared enemy in the Islamic State, has also been striking rebel groups who oppose Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad. Turkey, which backs anti-Assad rebels in Syria, has been warning Russia to stop encroaching on its airspace and cease conducting airstrikes on civilian populations nearby the Turkish border. Last night, a Russian plane violated Turkish airspace after repeated warnings and was shot down by two Turkish F-16s. The Russian pilots ejected and, according initial reports, one was killed by militants on the ground in Syria while the other was captured. Turkey is defending its actions and an emergency meeting of NATO has been called to discuss the incident. Vladimir Putin said the loss of the plane is “linked with a stab in our back delivered by terrorism accomplices.” The chances for further escalation seem remote, but it’s a tense reminder of how dangerous it is to have so many powerful countries operating on different sides of a nasty proxy conflict. As far as this incident pertains to U.S. politics, it should pose some difficult questions for the 2016 presidential candidates who favor deepened American involvement in the Syrian conflict and the establishment of a no-fly zone over Syria. This is position of most of the Republican presidential contenders, with Rand Paul, Ted Cruz, and Donald Trump being the only exceptions. On the Democratic side, Hillary Clinton backs the establishment of a Syrian no-fly zone, while Bernie Sanders and Martin O’Malley stand with the White House in rejecting the idea. The reasons to oppose a no-fly zone were many and varied before Russia started its bombing campaign. But now that Russian planes are patrolling the skies over Syria, the establishment of a no-fly zone would put the United States in the position of having to potentially fire on Russian jets. Putin and his military commanders have already demonstrated that they’re willing to be reckless and provocative when it comes to violating the airspace of NATO countries. Putting American planes in the position of policing the skies over Syria increases the chances – either by deliberate provocation or horrible accident – of a shooting war breaking out between the United States and Russia. Turkey’s downing of a Russian aircraft demonstrates how real that possibility is. Up to this point, there’s hasn’t been a ton of attention paid to the fact that so many would-be presidents are itching for the chance to potentially escalate the Syrian civil war into something much, much worse. Hillary Clinton was lightly challenged on this point at the Democratic debate in October, when O’Malley explained that a no-fly zone “could lead to an escalation because of an accident that we would deeply regret.” Rachel Maddow asked Clinton if she would shoot down a Russian jet that violated her no-fly zone, and she dodged the question as a “hypothetical,” going on to explain that imposing such a zone “doesn’t mean that you shoot at every aircraft that might violate it the first or second time.” The Republicans have, predictably, been much more hawkish in their imagined showdown with Russia over Syrian airspace. Marco Rubio’s new plan for defeating the Islamic State calls for no-fly zones and “safe zones” in Syria as part of a broader effort to topple Assad, and he writes “I would oppose Russia and Iran in their fight to prolong Assad’s brutal regime.” CNBC’s John Harwood asked Rubio what he would do if Russia violated the no-fly zone, and Rubio expressed confidence that that would never happen because “I don’t think it’s in the Russians’ interest to engage in an armed conflict with the United States.” If it did happen, though, Rubio said “you’re going to have a problem, but that would be no different than any other adversary.” Jeb Bush is similarly dismissive of the threat of escalation. “The argument is, well we’ll get into the conflict with Russia,” he told Charlie Rose last month, “maybe Russia shouldn’t want to be in conflict with us.” Chris Christie, in his gasbaggy way, said he’d set up the no-fly zone and then phone Putin to tell him “don’t test me.” There’s a lot of bluster and muscle-flexing going on that, as the Turkish incident shows, could have potentially catastrophic consequences. It’s not enough for a candidate to just promise that everything will work out because they’ll be “strong” or show “resolve” or whatever vacant buzzword is masquerading for foreign policy these days. They’re actively courting a disaster. http://www.salon.com/2015/11/24/the_...ce_a_disaster/

11-24-2015, 03:50 PM	#5
Rockinonahigh Senior Member How Do You Identify?: stone butch Preferred Pronoun?: makes no diffrence,I know who I am. Relationship Status: single,maybe looking if the right person comes along. Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: shreveport,Louisiana Posts: 4,907 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 4,682 Thanked 14,933 Times in 3,938 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	I pray there will be saner minds to keep the peace, this is not good