Butch Femme Planet  

Go Back   Butch Femme Planet > RELATIONSHIPS, COMMUNITY, GROUPS > Fine Wine: Folks Over 50

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-04-2015, 11:22 AM   #1
theoddz
Senior Member

How Do You Identify?:
Cranky Old Poop
Preferred Pronoun?:
Mr. Beast
Relationship Status:
Married
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 3,534
Thanks: 11,091
Thanked 9,926 Times in 2,506 Posts
Rep Power: 21474855
theoddz Has the BEST Reputationtheoddz Has the BEST Reputationtheoddz Has the BEST Reputationtheoddz Has the BEST Reputationtheoddz Has the BEST Reputationtheoddz Has the BEST Reputationtheoddz Has the BEST Reputationtheoddz Has the BEST Reputationtheoddz Has the BEST Reputationtheoddz Has the BEST Reputationtheoddz Has the BEST Reputation
Member Photo Albums
Default

I'm really enjoying reading all of the posts here. It takes me back to some really fond memories of good times and good friends. I was serving in the USMC back in the late 70's/early 80's, in Southern California. My/our (a large group of gay Women Marines) "stomping grounds" were mainly in San Diego and L.A.. We had sooooo much fun then, and it made coming out so much easier being around such good friends.

Peanuts, in LA, as was Que Sera (to a lesser extent, however), was a major party place for all of us, though we didn't go up there to LA nearly as much as we partied in San Diego, at places like The Club, The Brass Rail, The Apartment and Diablo's, among many others. After The Club closed, places like The Box Office opened up, but most were just flashes in the pan, so to speak.

I do remember, though, being told by a few of the older members of our group that there was another group of lesbians that never socialized in the bar scenes. These women, as I was told, were those who couldn't afford to be seen in the lesbian bars because of their professions (many were military officers and career military members) positions in society or fears of being outed to their families. Because of this, they met each other through other means and socialized together outside of the bars. It was all a dark and mysterious culture to me, at that time. I was young and into the bar scene.

It's been a long road for me, since those times and those places, and it just serves to remind me of how far I have come, and how deep my roots are in the Lesbian community. It's such a big part of my life and who I am now. Abandoning it would be like tearing a piece of my heart out.

~Theo~
theoddz is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to theoddz For This Useful Post:
Old 12-04-2015, 01:40 PM   #2
*Anya*
Infamous Member

How Do You Identify?:
Lesbian non-stone femme
Preferred Pronoun?:
She, her
Relationship Status:
Committed to being good to myself
 

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: West Coast
Posts: 8,258
Thanks: 39,306
Thanked 40,456 Times in 7,283 Posts
Rep Power: 21474858
*Anya* Has the BEST Reputation*Anya* Has the BEST Reputation*Anya* Has the BEST Reputation*Anya* Has the BEST Reputation*Anya* Has the BEST Reputation*Anya* Has the BEST Reputation*Anya* Has the BEST Reputation*Anya* Has the BEST Reputation*Anya* Has the BEST Reputation*Anya* Has the BEST Reputation*Anya* Has the BEST Reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by theoddz View Post
I'm really enjoying reading all of the posts here. It takes me back to some really fond memories of good times and good friends. I was serving in the USMC back in the late 70's/early 80's, in Southern California. My/our (a large group of gay Women Marines) "stomping grounds" were mainly in San Diego and L.A.. We had sooooo much fun then, and it made coming out so much easier being around such good friends.

Peanuts, in LA, as was Que Sera (to a lesser extent, however), was a major party place for all of us, though we didn't go up there to LA nearly as much as we partied in San Diego, at places like The Club, The Brass Rail, The Apartment and Diablo's, among many others. After The Club closed, places like The Box Office opened up, but most were just flashes in the pan, so to speak.

I do remember, though, being told by a few of the older members of our group that there was another group of lesbians that never socialized in the bar scenes. These women, as I was told, were those who couldn't afford to be seen in the lesbian bars because of their professions (many were military officers and career military members) positions in society or fears of being outed to their families. Because of this, they met each other through other means and socialized together outside of the bars. It was all a dark and mysterious culture to me, at that time. I was young and into the bar scene.

It's been a long road for me, since those times and those places, and it just serves to remind me of how far I have come, and how deep my roots are in the Lesbian community. It's such a big part of my life and who I am now. Abandoning it would be like tearing a piece of my heart out.

~Theo~
Oh Theo! Just think, we could have danced side by side at one time or another and never knew each other!

That mysterious group you were talking about was Southern California Women for Understanding, or SCWU, for short.

My ex and I joined for a few years. They had dances, potlucks, casual activities and we met for picnics at parks with our children and things like that. Those were the days that lesbians did not have children to the degree gay women do now! To find an organization where other women had children, helped mine to not feel so alone to have a gay mom.

I recall that there were a lot of teachers in the group. I believe SCWU was founded sometime around *1978-1979. Teachers were understandably worried about job loss due to being lesbian, so they truly felt like they had so much to lose if they came out or were found out.

I guess lesbians in the military were really in the same position. Imagine the stress of hiding but it was so normal to hide for lesbians of the 50's, 60's and 70's! It is still the same in parts of the USA, other countries and with some jobs today.

There also was the Briggs Initiative back then and lesbian teachers really and truly were threatened with the loss of their jobs! It was scary for a professional woman.

I was in nursing school and my ex worked in the jail at the time, so we were less worried about exposure than the women that had achieved a level of status in their jobs.

Oh my, I feel like an elder lesbian stateswoman now! I guess that I kind of am.

*I looked online and according to the June Mazer collection:

Southern California Women for Understanding (SCWU) collection, 1975-1999

The Southern California Women for Understanding (SCWU), was an educational non-profit organization, formed in 1976 and dedicated to “enhancing the quality of life for [the lesbian] community and for lesbians nationwide, creative and positive exchange about homosexuality, [and] changing stereotypical images of lesbians.”

SCWU emerged in the midst of the civil rights, gay rights, and women’s movements when many marginalized social groups organized en masse to demand recognition and rights. SCWU was one of the earliest known lesbian organizations. At its height, SCWU reached membership of 1,100 and in 1982, Lesbian News hailed it as the “largest lesbian support group in the country.”

The collection contains the operational records of Southern California Women for Understanding (SCWU), one of the earliest lesbian non-profit educational organizations in Los Angeles, California.

http://www.mazerlesbianarchives.org/...standing-scwu/
__________________
~Anya~




Democracy Dies in Darkness

~Washington Post


"...I'm deeply concerned by recently adopted policies which punish children for their parents’ actions ... The thought that any State would seek to deter parents by inflicting such abuse on children is unconscionable."

UN Human Rights commissioner

Last edited by *Anya*; 12-04-2015 at 01:52 PM. Reason: Correct dates for SCWU
*Anya* is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to *Anya* For This Useful Post:
Old 12-04-2015, 01:57 PM   #3
theoddz
Senior Member

How Do You Identify?:
Cranky Old Poop
Preferred Pronoun?:
Mr. Beast
Relationship Status:
Married
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 3,534
Thanks: 11,091
Thanked 9,926 Times in 2,506 Posts
Rep Power: 21474855
theoddz Has the BEST Reputationtheoddz Has the BEST Reputationtheoddz Has the BEST Reputationtheoddz Has the BEST Reputationtheoddz Has the BEST Reputationtheoddz Has the BEST Reputationtheoddz Has the BEST Reputationtheoddz Has the BEST Reputationtheoddz Has the BEST Reputationtheoddz Has the BEST Reputationtheoddz Has the BEST Reputation
Member Photo Albums
Default

Anya, we very well may have been rubbing elbows at that time and not knew it!! As I so vividly recall, I was soooooo very cautious about talking to people I didn't know, out of fear that they were undercover military "narcs" or NIS (Naval Investigative Services, at that time, who were charged with outing and/or pursuing gay and lesbian military members) agents. It really put a damper on getting to know other lesbians who were not already known to me. You just had to be careful what you told other people about yourself, too. When you're drunk, you lose a LOT of "filters", so to speak, so a lot of women I knew were outed, then discharged from the military, as a result of partying in the bars.

It was a scary time to be LGBT in the military, then. NIS agents would sit in parked cars outside of the known establishments who catered to the LGBT community and look for cars with military/DoD stickers on the windshields. Once they had that sticker number, they had the name registered on base with it. The witch hunts would then begin, and let me tell you.......there were a LOT of them!! The discharges they gave to gay/lesbian/queer/bi military members back then were not "Honorable", either. Even in the best of circumstances, what a lot of people got was a "General Discharge under Honorable Conditions". You still lose some Veterans benefits with that one.

~Theo~
theoddz is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to theoddz For This Useful Post:
Old 12-04-2015, 02:00 PM   #4
clay
Practically Lives Here

How Do You Identify?:
Butch (Silver Fox) Dom Daddi
Preferred Pronoun?:
50 Shades of Clay Darker & Deeper
Relationship Status:
married to my forever
 
clay's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2011
Location: salt air & sandy beaches
Posts: 13,136
Thanks: 97,020
Thanked 31,675 Times in 7,748 Posts
Rep Power: 21474864
clay Has the BEST Reputationclay Has the BEST Reputationclay Has the BEST Reputationclay Has the BEST Reputationclay Has the BEST Reputationclay Has the BEST Reputationclay Has the BEST Reputationclay Has the BEST Reputationclay Has the BEST Reputationclay Has the BEST Reputationclay Has the BEST Reputation
Member Photo Albums
Default Great thread & Posts! ^5

I came out in 1973 as a youngster! Around the time of the Stonewall riots.This was in the Deep South, smack in the middle of that "bible belt". The only women "visible" to me were ones who dressed very masculine, and were called "diesel dykes". Most wore blue jeans, jean work shirts, and heavy boots, worked some sort of machine shop jobs, and rode motorcycles. I thought they were just beautiful people to me....and I admired their courage, grit, & stance to be themselves. The only words I had ever heard for describing any one who preferred "same sex" coupling were "queer" & "faggot"
It wasn't until late 70's I began to hear of "butch & femme". I met a butch/femme couple...when the butch was my patient. The femme & I became very close, and she schooled me on the butch concept.

My very first bar ever was a small bar in Greenville,SC....Club Gemini. I talked a gay male friend into us "checking it out". If anyone approached us & we felt uncomfortable, we would claim to be "together". Ha....

The owners, whom became very dear friends of mine, sold that club & opened the Stone Castle. I am not sure if it is still in business, but I had many fun times there.

Cops did come in regularly, ID'ed us, etc...but I was never hassled in any way by them.

The friend who schooled me on the BF dynamic took me to a very popular bar in HotLanta....The Sweet Gum Head. There I saw my very first drag show. Brandy Alexander, Hot Chocolate, and others.....OHHH EMMM Geeee....I loved iut...and wound up going back often as it was a short drive there!!!

Late 80's I moved to HotLanta. Like Georgia Ma'am said, I hung out at Charis Books, Piedmont Park, and several clubs. I saw Lea DeLaria, the Indigo Girls, and Melissa Etheridge perform there.

My fave club was Deana's One Mo' Time. I went to the Page a few times, but wasn't as comfortable there. I went to The Other Side when it opened, and was fairly comfortable there. Until the one night, someone brought a backpack in, filled with explosives and nails, sat it down next to my table. I was outside when it went off, injuring several folks. I just didn't want to go back there anymore after that.

I went to some of the other colorful bars around town, some I no longer remember names of...but Model T's was one my male friend always wanted me to go to with him when he was prowling...lol.

Another piece of history I remember early on was the case in Ga. of Bowers v. Hardwick. You can google it to read more. Basically two guys were in the privacy of their own bedroom when they got "raided" and charged with sodomy.

Years & years ago, two ladies out in California had what was called The Wishing Well....Laddie & Gloria....where you paid for an ad, the booklet was published and sent to members, updated every so often. On Our Backs was one of the very first things I read..... Radycliffe Hall's Well of Loneliness was my first fiction. Then I was gifted the Beebo Brinker series of books...

I remember the March On Washington . I wasn't privy to be a part of it but proud still...

Athens,Ga was a very well known town for feminists. I went to several events there, one being the Vagina Monologues, played out on the grounds of UGA. I was active in the feminism movement in my very small hometown area. I saw Alix Dobkin perform there several times. Her stories always amazed me. Women & power!!!

Thanks for all these great posts. I have enjoyed reading them all & even know of several of the places & people mentioned.

It is amazing to step back in time..to where I was and where I am now. Fond memories & stories from over the last 42 years....gassssppp...where DID time go...

Thanks, Virago!!!

__________________
To find someone who will love you for no reason, and to shower that person with reasons, that is the ultimate happiness. ~Robert Brault
clay is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to clay For This Useful Post:
Old 12-04-2015, 03:48 PM   #5
Cin
Senior Member

How Do You Identify?:
Butch
Preferred Pronoun?:
she
Relationship Status:
Truly Madly Deeply
 
2 Highscores

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: In My Head
Posts: 2,814
Thanks: 6,333
Thanked 10,436 Times in 2,476 Posts
Rep Power: 21474851
Cin Has the BEST ReputationCin Has the BEST ReputationCin Has the BEST ReputationCin Has the BEST ReputationCin Has the BEST ReputationCin Has the BEST ReputationCin Has the BEST ReputationCin Has the BEST ReputationCin Has the BEST ReputationCin Has the BEST ReputationCin Has the BEST Reputation
Default

I just signed in and what a nice surprise. This is a great threat. Thanks Virago.

I don't know much about the bar scene nowadays since I haven't had a drink since 1990 and pretty much stay out of bars unless I have a good reason to be there, like a wedding or funeral or brunch at the Club Café in Boston or some such. But I pretty much grew up in bars so it was natural for me to gravitate toward lesbian bars when I came out. Mostly I remember them being called women's bars, at least in Boston. I remember Somewhere Else and Saints and a couple of gay bars whose names I can't recall but that had women's nights. As a teenager I lived in Fall River, MA and went to a gay bar there called the Sword & Shield. It was mixed- both men and women. It wasn't a big city so I guess we didn't have enough queers to populate more than one bar so we all drank and danced together. There was the Randolph Country Club (it wasn't really a country club, imagine a lesbian country club, if they actually had one I wouldn't have been able to afford to join it though) that had a pool which was pretty awesome in the day, you could swim, shoot pool and get shitfaced all in the same area not to mention pick up women. I do remember that butch and femme was not an acceptable identity in those days. It's kind of funny when I look back because I always dated femmes although they didn't identify as such and I always looked butch. I just didn't call myself that. I don't think I played it down because, well, because I'm not sure I can, but I certainly managed to deny myself to myself and to anyone listening. I gave lip service to the dogma of the day. Maybe I even believed it. I had issues with men/male/masculinity, stuff I hadn't even begun to look at let alone work through so I definitely agreed that I didn't want to ape men or heterosexual relationships. So I didn't ID as butch, but really if it looks like a duck. And I surely did look like a duck. And I was attracted to women who were femmes, just like the women who were attracted to me were attracted to female masculinity no matter what they called it. It was an interesting time. I really loved the friendships and the camaraderie that comes from a shared experience, especially one that has an element of danger like being out and about in those days did. Although looking back I cringe a bit remembering some of the stuff I said and did, I am grateful I had those spaces and those people. And personally I do love flannel though I don't wear it much anymore unless I'm going for a walk in the woods, which by the way I do an awful lot of. In those days I got to wear flannel as pretty much a uniform. Flannel shirt over a t-shirt, levis, and boots. Happy days.

I also loved hanging at New Words bookstore in Cambridge. Also at the Cambridge Women's Center where I did some volunteering as a young dyke. And at the Trident bookstore and café which wasn't really lesbian space or even gay space, but was always very welcoming space. I did the bars but I also got involved in the women's movement and I remember my first Take Back the Night March, wide eyed baby butch that I was I fell in love with protests. I looked behind me to see hundreds and hundreds of candles glowing in the dark and I might have cried from the sheer awesomeness of it.

I don't know what bars are like now. If there are a lot of lesbian bars or gay bars or not. I think probably not in numbers and certainly not in importance. They just aren't as necessary. They wouldn't matter in the same way. The internet makes finding each other much easier. Online chat rooms also. Buying books online at Amazon and such makes women's bookstores not so important. But I am so grateful they were there when I needed them growing up and coming out. Life may be easier now but it was more exciting then I think. But it's all about perspective I imagine so mileage may vary
Cin is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to Cin For This Useful Post:
Old 12-04-2015, 04:26 PM   #6
dykeumentary
Member

How Do You Identify?:
butch dyke
 

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 449
Thanks: 341
Thanked 1,548 Times in 359 Posts
Rep Power: 19160663
dykeumentary Has the BEST Reputationdykeumentary Has the BEST Reputationdykeumentary Has the BEST Reputationdykeumentary Has the BEST Reputationdykeumentary Has the BEST Reputationdykeumentary Has the BEST Reputationdykeumentary Has the BEST Reputationdykeumentary Has the BEST Reputationdykeumentary Has the BEST Reputationdykeumentary Has the BEST Reputationdykeumentary Has the BEST Reputation
Default

OMG RANDALF COUNTRY CLUB!
__________________
The Origins of Butch & Femme (a retelling): https://youtu.be/U7VkXpZl4Mk
Watch more of my funny butch/femme movies here:
https://www.youtube.com/dykeumentary1
dykeumentary is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to dykeumentary For This Useful Post:
Old 12-04-2015, 06:49 PM   #7
CherylNYC
Member

How Do You Identify?:
Stonefemme lesbian
Preferred Pronoun?:
I'm a woman. Behave accordingly.
Relationship Status:
Single, not looking.
 

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,467
Thanks: 9,474
Thanked 7,116 Times in 1,205 Posts
Rep Power: 21474853
CherylNYC Has the BEST ReputationCherylNYC Has the BEST ReputationCherylNYC Has the BEST ReputationCherylNYC Has the BEST ReputationCherylNYC Has the BEST ReputationCherylNYC Has the BEST ReputationCherylNYC Has the BEST ReputationCherylNYC Has the BEST ReputationCherylNYC Has the BEST ReputationCherylNYC Has the BEST ReputationCherylNYC Has the BEST Reputation
Default

Yes! I remember the Duchess at the corner of W 4th and 7th Ave S. I'm deathly allergic to even tiny quantities of alcohol, so I didn't and don't go out to to bars, but we all knew where to go.

It's true that butch and femme expression was frowned upon back then. Make-up was discouraged. Long fingernails were anathema. In fact, if you had long fingernails everyone know you couldn't be a real lesbian. Lucky for me, my motorcycle was the badge of a bona-fide bad-ass, so some of my, umm, idiosyncrasies got a pass. NO, I don't miss those times. I especially don't miss the anti-leatherdyke sensibilities that suffused our community back then.
__________________
Cheryl
CherylNYC is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to CherylNYC For This Useful Post:
Old 12-04-2015, 07:35 PM   #8
dykeumentary
Member

How Do You Identify?:
butch dyke
 

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 449
Thanks: 341
Thanked 1,548 Times in 359 Posts
Rep Power: 19160663
dykeumentary Has the BEST Reputationdykeumentary Has the BEST Reputationdykeumentary Has the BEST Reputationdykeumentary Has the BEST Reputationdykeumentary Has the BEST Reputationdykeumentary Has the BEST Reputationdykeumentary Has the BEST Reputationdykeumentary Has the BEST Reputationdykeumentary Has the BEST Reputationdykeumentary Has the BEST Reputationdykeumentary Has the BEST Reputation
Default

I was one of those dykes that went out dancing 4 nights a week. I worked extra shifts, and didn't eat, so I could go clubbing. I LOVED everything about queer bars when I was young.

Like every other thing I look back on, I'm grateful for the good times (there were many), I fondly remember most of the women I slept with (there were many) and I feel remorse and sadness and shame for the some of the mistakes I made (there were many).
I remember those years for a lot of deaths as well. So many male friends died of AIDS. So many people I knew died in drunk driving accidents and drug overdoses. Everyone was a smoker. There were the women of died of probably-prevenable cancers, but who didn't want to deal with homophobia, or their biology, at a gynecological clinic. And the friends who expressed their gender in ways that made hateful killers feel justified in their actions. And all this bad news was passed along at the bars. And we'd drink to them and party.

So when I think of bars in those days, the memories are a tangle of happiness and grief. I guess very generation feels this way.
It's interesting to hear/talk about, and a valuable comversation.
__________________
The Origins of Butch & Femme (a retelling): https://youtu.be/U7VkXpZl4Mk
Watch more of my funny butch/femme movies here:
https://www.youtube.com/dykeumentary1
dykeumentary is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 13 Users Say Thank You to dykeumentary For This Useful Post:
Old 12-04-2015, 10:15 PM   #9
Kätzchen
Member

How Do You Identify?:
Femme
Preferred Pronoun?:
She, please.
 

Join Date: May 2010
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow ツ
Posts: 16,050
Thanks: 30,111
Thanked 33,507 Times in 10,638 Posts
Rep Power: 21474868
Kätzchen Has the BEST ReputationKätzchen Has the BEST ReputationKätzchen Has the BEST ReputationKätzchen Has the BEST ReputationKätzchen Has the BEST ReputationKätzchen Has the BEST ReputationKätzchen Has the BEST ReputationKätzchen Has the BEST ReputationKätzchen Has the BEST ReputationKätzchen Has the BEST ReputationKätzchen Has the BEST Reputation
Default

For five years, when I lived in southern Oregon (Ashland, Medford, Grants Pass - but primarily Ashland), I noticed that I had to make an effort, somehow, at growing or cultivating relations with others in the Lesbian community.

As some, or many might know, there's only a hand full of bars in the metro area (or less) where one might find company. But in southern Oregon, at least between 2003-2008, the only place one could find a place to meet others was not at a bar, but at an Lesbian owned B&B (Morning Glory; they serve awesome cuisine) or at the annual Black & White Ball, which was sponsored by Abdill-Ellis/ Lambda which I think this wonderful organization is no longer around, but has been re-invented to provide services in other kinds of ways.

I loved attending the annual winter dance. Blue Lightening played music for the dance, there was a wet bar too, but even in the tiny town of Ashland, southern Oregon is not really .... a place one can feel any wide margin of safety, like in the tiny blue dot of our metro area. Even nowadays, I still don't feel completely at ease because of my own heightened awareness which is probably brought on by how I feel about maintaining my own personal safety.

When I went to the ball, I wore a long black velvet designer dress, which i dont think fit in well with the styles others in the community wore, but people were very nice, hard to get to know, but over tine, during the five years I sent in Ashland, I made some life long friends. In fact, those five years were the best years of my life , over the course of my life time, I would say. Really lovely community, very interesting and highly private people who touched my life with incredible kindness.

Here's a couple of links for others to read about the Abdill-Ellis couple who were strong members of the community, at one time, and the legacy of their vision for the LGBTQ community with special emphasis for the Lesbian community in a very rural location in southern Oregon.

http://m.mailtribune.com/article/20100818/News/8180328

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roxann...ichelle_Abdill
__________________
“In the end, it’s not about how much stuff you have, it’s about how many hearts you touched,” — Iva Ursano.


Kätzchen is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Kätzchen For This Useful Post:
Reply

Tags
bar, culture, decades, lesbian


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:15 PM.


ButchFemmePlanet.com
All information copyright of BFP 2018