Men with boobs.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Heart

We live in a world where what it means to be a woman is so restricted and devalued and female masculinity is so under-represented, that a woman as sophisticated as Cynthia Nixon publicly calls her butch lover "a short man with boobs." Ugh.

I think the more important question is: does it bother her butch? For all we know, this is a term of endearment between them.

[Heart]

Actually Linus, I don't think that's the most important question. I don't think each and every personal story and id necessarily takes precidence over cultural expressions of sexism, misogyny, and homophobia towards butch women. And that's how this reads to me. If nothing else, Nixon's language was careless and dismissive towards masculine women, whether her partner identifies as male or female, (and as far as I know, she ids as female), is irrelevant.

[Random]

Linus,

That's what I was thinking...

What if her partner is a short man with boobs?
I'm not in their relationship so I can't say..


I used to have a partner who self id'd as a white, redneck, southern conservitive man to her nearest and dearest..

To the rest of the world she presented as a native american catholic straight woman...

Bit of a difference...

[BullDog]

Judging by all the nasty replies on some of the websites Nixon's remarks definitely are not furthering any understanding of butch. Same oh same oh- wanna be man comments.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by EzeeTiger

As we all know how someone id's varies greatly. Maybe her partner wants that as her id, who knows? Maybe Nixon was just trying to be funny

Originally Posted by Linus

I think the more important question is: does it bother her butch? For all we know, this is a term of endearment between them.

Originally Posted by Random

What if her partner is a short man with boobs?
I'm not in their relationship so I can say..

Thanks you three, you summed up what I was typing - before the phone rang. I got back from my phonecall to discover you'd beat me to it. Mwah!

[BullDog]

I wonder what the reaction would be if a public figure described their femme partner as basically a short/tall woman with boobs? How about a trans guy? Somehow it's ok to reduce butches to short men with boobs?

[betenoire]

I think it's icky to behave as though she said that "All Butches are basically short men with boobs! BOOOOOOOOOOBS! MENNNNN! BOOOOOOBS!"

And for the record - none of us know how this person self-identifies. There's nothing to indicate that Nixon's lovah identifies as a Butch. Nixon referred to her "butchness" but that's not the same thing - I'm sure we all know that. Plus, further on in the article Nixon did reject the notion that they were in a Butch+Femme relationship.

I bet you'll all be real upset to hear that I tend to refer to my spouse as "the short hair" and myself as "the long hair". OMG I have oppressed us all!

[Bob]

Originally Posted by Heart

I don't think each and every personal story and id necessarily takes precidence over cultural expressions of sexism, misogyny, and homophobia towards butch women. And that's how this reads to me. If nothing else, Nixon's language was careless and dismissive towards masculine women, whether her partner identifies as male or female, (and as far as I know, she ids as female), is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by betenoire

....
And for the record - none of us know how this person self-identifies. There's nothing to indicate that Nixon's lovah identifies as a Butch.

So, I'm going to pick on Bete's comment first, because I like her and because it is part of our relationship that we constantly antagonize one another with delicious malice aforethought. So, in short: CRAP. And to all other posters who said essentially the same thing.

Heart's comment is really the uh, heart of the issue. Regardless of whether one doesn't mind being called a 'short man with boobs', the larger concern is the language (and through it, the thought) that engenders the ongoing belittlement of of masculine WOMEN, because, ya know, it's all RELATIVE to the individual and their own identity.

One's own identity is never (or should never be) the paramount concern in any 'community'. The idea of a community itself implies that its larger than any one individual. As long as we, as a community, continue to use (or condone) language that has the essential power to demean others because we're afraid of being 'judgemental' or similar happy horseshit, we demean the entire community, and consequently, ourselves.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Bob

So, I'm going to pick on Bete's comment first, because I like her and because it is part of our relationship that we constantly antagonize one another with delicious malice aforethought. So, in short: CRAP. And to all other posters who said essentially the same thing.

Heart's comment is really the uh, heart of the issue. Regardless of whether one doesn't mind being called a 'short man with boobs', the larger concern is the language (and through it, the thought) that engenders the ongoing belittlement of of masculine WOMEN, because, ya know, it's all RELATIVE to the individual and their own identity.

One's own identity is never (or should never be) the paramount concern in any 'community'. The idea of a community itself implies that its larger than any one individual. As long as we, as a community, continue to use (or condone) language that has the essential power to demean others because we're afraid of being 'judgemental' or similar happy horseshit, we demean the entire community, and consequently, ourselves.

Thank you Bob!

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Bob

Heart's comment is really the uh, heart of the issue. Regardless of whether one doesn't mind being called a 'short man with boobs', the larger concern is the language (and through it, the thought) that engenders the ongoing belittlement of of masculine WOMEN, because, ya know, it's all RELATIVE to the individual and their own identity.

So you're saying it's fair to run about policing the identities, labels, what-have-yous of complete strangers who are more "masculine presenting" because their identities, labels, and what-have-yous have the potential to paint another completely unrelated "masculine presenting" person with a brush that they don't like?

Sorry, Bob. I'm not buying it. I call horseshit.

If Nick where to, say, call me his "princess kitty hobag" in public should all Femmes everywhere have some sort of an outcry because they were oppressed by proxy? Fuck that.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Bob

One's own identity is never (or should never be) the paramount concern in any 'community'. The idea of a community itself implies that its larger than any one individual. As long as we, as a community, continue to use (or condone) language that has the essential power to demean others because we're afraid of being 'judgemental' or similar happy horseshit, we demean the entire community, and consequently, ourselves.

I disagree wholeheartedly

And who said these people belonged to a community? Did they say they did, or are we forcing them to be in a 'community'?

And to which community do they belong?

Since when does what the 'community' label you supercede how you identify yourself?

And since when did making an individual the representative spokesperson for ALL in the community become vogue again? I thought privilege 101 stated very clearly that's not how things work. This Cynthia character represents nada about my life, so why is she a spokesperson for my 'community'? Why is she a representative held to some high high standard? If we don't want straight people to make us all 'representatives' and 'ambassadors', we can't apply that ourselves when it's 'convenient'.


Dylan

[Heart]

I find it interesting that in this instance, many are so willing to shrug and say, "well, who knows? Maybe that's how she identifies, that's all that matters, etc." Why is that all that matters? That is NOT something we would say if the comment was in reference to someone's ethnicity or ability, for example. You wouldn't refer to someone as a "crip," or "white trash" even if they refer to themselves that way. The exact point I am making here is that we tolerate comments like this about women, shrug them off, make it a personal thing, instead of having a community standard that says it's not okay to refer to butches as "men with boobs."

[BullDog]

The hue and cry would be different if it were about femmes or trans men or male identified butches.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by BullDog

The hue and cry would be different if it were about femmes or trans men or male identified butches.

I don't think the comment would be made about femmes - who afterall, express more "traditional" (read: understood, expected) woman-hood, so of course they have BOOBS.

I agree that any reference to transmen or male-ided queers and BOOBS would immediately be seen as disrespectful, rather than shrugged off or justified. But the reference wouldn't get made as easily because of the privleging of male identity. It's specifically women, in this instance masculine women, that are supposed to suck it up and just have a sense of humor about any reference to BOOBS.

Even in context, I find Nixon's statement utterly objectifying and basically stupid.

[SuperFemme]

I wonder if that is what goes through peoples mind after they've called my Beloved *Sir* and THEN noticed hys boobs? Either way, you can always see that moment of recognition....

[Random]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I wonder if that is what goes through peoples mind after they've called my Beloved *Sir* and THEN noticed hys boobs? Either way, you can always see that moment of recognition....

Personally...

I think it's hot... grin...

I love that moment then things don't mesh...

Sort of like the look in people eyes when they find out between the amazon and myself.. I'm the Top...

Grin.. Priceless..

[Random]

Originally Posted by Heart

I find it interesting that in this instance, many are so willing to shrug and say, "well, who knows? Maybe that's how she identifies, that's all that matters, etc." Why is that all that matters? That is NOT something we would say if the comment was in reference to someone's ethnicity or ability, for example. You wouldn't refer to someone as a "crip," or "white trash" even if they refer to themselves that way. The exact point I am making here is that we tolerate comments like this about women, shrug them off, make it a personal thing, instead of having a community standard that says it's not okay to refer to butches as "men with boobs."

Heart..

She is saying that HER butch is... not that all butches are...

There is a difference...

It's just as wrong trying to force your (general your's, not your's personaly) ID on someone as it is to try to says that all are something because one is...

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Random

Heart..

She is saying that HER butch is... not that all butches are...

There is a difference...

It's just as wrong trying to force your (general your's, not your's personaly) ID on someone as it is to try to says that all are something because one is...

You are completely missing my point.

The only thing I am trying to force, and will continue to try and force, is recognition that women exist along a diverse spectrum of gender and sexual identities, all the way from ultra-feminine to ultra-masculine, and that being ultra-masculine does NOT make one male anymore than being ultra-feminine makes one straight.

Does that expalin it better??

[Random]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I wonder what the reaction would be if a public figure described their femme partner as basically a short/tall woman with boobs? How about a trans guy? Somehow it's ok to reduce butches to short men with boobs?

and it's ok to say that butches who FEEL like short men with boobs have to be something else?

Again.. not everything fits everyone...

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Random

and it's ok to say that butches who FEEL like short men with boobs have to be something else?

Again.. not everything fits everyone...

LOL, I've never heard of a butch describing themselves as a short man with boobs. Is this a new gender identity?