Men with boobs.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

I don't think it matters who Nixon is or what she said- I think Heart just used that as a good example to start a discussion on the language surrounding female masculinity...

And if this Cynthia Nixon person's partner does id as a male butch? Or is her personal choice not an issue here?

For me, this is really not about female masculinity as much as it is trying to police someone else's words. I try not to do that any more because it doesn't fall within my hula hoop.

I am interested in reading how others view their partners or themselves. I am not interested in reading how others think others should view their partners or themselves.

I'm not being facetious at all here. I truly do not understand the fuss.

Now if Dusa called Jack a big ol' hairy-assed man, I'd have a problem with that because I know Jack is female-id'd. I'd find that really ugly on Dusa's part. Same goes for K calling Linus a hormonal woman. Because Linus is a transman, I'd find that really ugly on K's part.

And I'd have something to say to both of them.

But some random so-called celebrity on an article that will be lost in the archives of the web within days if not hours? Not so much.

I'm not saying y'all shouldn't discuss it. I'm just voicing my opinion over the reason. Do you think you can make her change her words or shame her for her choice of words?

That's what a large portion of this thread read like to me. And I read all of it.

I am interested in what Met wants to be called or EZee Tiger prefers. I do want to know how Gemme id's.

:shrug: Just not really all that inclined to get wound up over a Hollywood soundbite.

[Martina]

i think it's pretty clear that she was trying to explain to people who don't know what a butch is. i agree that it is unfortunate that she said "man." She has told a lot of stories though that show the complexity of their lives.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

I don't think it matters who Nixon is or what she said- I think Heart just used that as a good example to start a discussion on the language surrounding female masculinity...

Bingo. Yes, I care about the language/intentions/limitations/biases and assumptions that exist around female identities. And I'm pretty amazed at some of expressions of indifference, that make this just a personal matter. Would you have the same attitude if say, Chaz Bono's partner referred to him publicly as "a man with a vagina?" Would that be seen as just a personal, off-the-cuff, cute attempt at explaining the identity of a transman?

[Corkey]

Personally I could give a rats azz what a so called celeb says about anything, they aren't what make my world go round. Chaz included.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Heart

Bingo. Yes, I care about the language/intentions/limitations/biases and assumptions that exist around female identities. And I'm pretty amazed at some of expressions of indifference, that make this just a personal matter. Would you have the same attitude if say, Chaz Bono's partner referred to him publicly as "a man with a vagina?"

And actually, yes I would have this exact same attitude. Unless, that is, Chaz said something about it or it was said in anger by his partner.

I can't express deeply enough how much I don't care about policing other people's words like this. Not my hula hoop, Heart.

I guess that makes me a bad feminist? I don't know. I just know that I would rather have discussions with and about those that I know and care about than some Hollywood actor. Or do I have to call her an actress since she is clearly feminine?

[Random]

What about Buck Angel who calls himself

A man with a vagina...

[Soon]

Because there are precious few images/couples that publicly reflect my experiences, I AM interested in how these relationships are presented/defined/articulated and people's responses. (the general public as well as those from within our community)

It's like looking at images and reading about B/F stories and histories from the past (which are fascinating and validating at times). I am interested in today's public figures who are part of the queer community and how they present or identify and how society responds to them.

[Heart]

Corky, Arwen - you don't have to care. Do you care that I care?

And I did not once mention the word "feminist in any single one of my posts, nor did I call anyone a "bad" anything.

Oh, and P.S. I don't care one jot what Cynthia and her partner call themselves or each other. None of my business. What I do care about is the discourse, especially in queer communities, about female identities. That is my business. And even if it isn't, I will continue to stick my nose in it anyway.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Random

What about Buck Angel who calls himself

A man with a vagina...

Calls HIMSELF... That's key. (Buck's awesome and a feminist to boot.)

Anyway, I'm pretty much done now. Made my points, stand by 'em.

G'night.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Heart

Corky, Arwen - you don't have to care. Do you care that I care?

And I did not once mention the word "feminist in any single one of my posts, nor did I call anyone a "bad" anything.

That's odd, Heart. I checked my post and didn't see that I said you called me a bad feminist. I am not sure how you read that into my post. I thought we knew one another better than that.

I'm pretty clear with my accusations. SO let me be really clear here. In no way did I think you, Heart, said I was a bad feminist nor was that line meant for you. Okay? That was me saying that about myself and coming from my own life experience.

I'm truly sorry that you felt as if I was accusing you of that. That wasn't the Heart show. Grin. That was the Arwen show.

[Corkey]

Heart have at, you can discuss til the cows come home, it isn't going to change a thing on what this woman said or how it relates to her relationship with her lover. It frankly is none of our business what she calls her lover. It's their relationship, not yours or anyone elses. How she speaks and what she chooses to say about her partner isn't up for opinion on who they are.
What I am concerned with is how people get their britches in a bunch when it is none of their business. No one gets to decide for another who or how to be in a relationship with someone they don't even know.
My.02

[Hack]

I appreciate the point that Heart is making here. But I also appreciate much of the discussion here because it reminds me that I choose to reside in this community that lets me come here and say:

I am not a short man with boobs.
I am not a woman in any sense of the word. I don't care what my chromosomes say about it either.
I do not, at all, embrace my breasts or my other parts that do not match me. Nor do I celebrate them.
I am butch, male-identified to my very core.
I am trans, even though I don't take T and have had very little surgery.
I own who I am. No one tells me who I am.
I define me. I live in this body. I make no excuses. I never apologize for who I am.

This, to me, is the very core of this community...the right to self-i.d. I think that Cynthia Nixon -- always my least favorite SATC character, btw -- is doing what she does best. She is assigning a role to her significant other because as an actress, that is perhaps how she sees her world. Do they, as individuals or as a couple, have a place in this community? Sure, if they want to be a part of it. If they choose not to, then that's ok too. I hope it works out for them, really. It's always nice to see couples...no matter how they i.d. or how they view each other in the world...work and do well.

Just my thoughts.

Jake

[Lusciousblondefemme]

Ok call me slow or something .. but I am still trying to figure out where this comment comes into being misogynist, homophobic or sexist?

So she called her partner a little man with boobs... who is that actually hurting?
You can not say that it is hurting the gay community because honestly I know alot of WOMEN who are butches who have boobs and when they get called Sir or young man they do not automatically say oh shit that was hurtful because you are homophobic, sexist or a misogynist.

Unfortunately in this day and age to sit and worry about what someone who is famous is saying about her partner is redundant. Sometimes I think that people look for things to explain the way society is and guess what there is nothing that can explain the way people think. I say that because not all people are the same. Everyone thinks the things they want because of their own experiences or what they were taught or showed through life. I actually laughed when I read that comment because I thought of how my ex always gets called young man. We always laugh about it because when she turns around and they see her chest they apologize profusely to her for the mistake.

Unfortunately when people look at a person and only see them from the neck up and see short hair yes they will assume that they are a man, but that doesn't automatically make them a horrible person.

I understand that maybe you do not like what was said but honestly that will have very little to do with the way people still think about gay people. That comment isn't going to make them change their ways and think something else.

We are fighting for our rights of equality and in that unfortunately sometimes you have to take the good with the bad this comment did not set the gay community back at all.

I actually think that it might make people think twice about automatically thinking that someone is a man when they take a first glance at them.

It brought to the front that fact that some women do have short hair and do ID as something other than a woman.

I mean if you are going to say anything then look into what others say..
I watched the Wanda Sykes special on HBO the other night ..
When she was describing her wife she said "I always say she is french, because it is better then saying she is white." Should we attack her for being prejudice to white people? No that is just how she describes her partner and as long as the partner is not insulted by what was said what right do we have to be upset by what she said?

My question is Would you feel the same way if you heard some gay man describe their partner as a fairy or the more flamboyant one? If you are willing to sit and discuss this silly comment are you willing to say that you would be the same with gay men as well. Because after all we are all in this fight together to be understood and excepted.

[Heart]

Here's how its sexist: it implies that a woman can't be masculine, that to be masculine you can only be described as a man. It implies that women can only be feminine. That's a sexist viewpoint in that it limits the definition of woman.

Here's how its homophobic: it implies that a gay woman is really a man wanna-be, a man with boobs, rather than what she is - a lesbian, dyke, queer, butch woman. That's a homophobic viewpoint in that it denigrates queer female identities

Here's how its misogynistic: it puts the value/emphasis on male (masculine equals man/male) and devalues the femaleness inherent in the identity. That's a misogynistic viewpoint in that it devalues femaleness and privileges maleness,

Voila!

[Emmy]

I have no doubt that some people, reading Nixon’s words, will conclude that butches, generally, are ‘men with boobs’. This inference, though, seems to rely upon an implicit denial of individual differences among queers; it betrays a deep ignorance, I think.

So, how should we deal with this? I don’t think the answer is to censor ourselves too heavily, when it comes to talking about ourselves and our loved ones, for fear that the quirks of our own dynamics will be illegitimately generalized to the whole queer population.

Rather, we should try to remind people, whenever possible, that we are, in fact, individuals- that, just like straight people, we’re beautifully, delightfully idiosyncratic.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Heart

Here's how its sexist: it implies that a woman can't be masculine, that to be masculine you can only be described as a man. It implies that women can only be feminine. That's a sexist viewpoint in that it limits the definition of woman.

Here's how its homophobic: it implies that a gay woman is really a man wanna-be, a man with boobs, rather than what she is - a lesbian, dyke, queer, butch woman. That's a homophobic viewpoint in that it denigrates queer female identities

Here's how its misogynistic: it puts the value/emphasis on male (masculine equals man/male) and devalues the femaleness inherent in the identity. That's a misogynistic viewpoint in that it devalues femaleness and privileges maleness,

Voila!

Her words were about her lover, not about anyone else, you aren't in her head and as such cannot confirm any such phobia to her words. You take what you want to hear and run with all this hysteria, it's ludicrous. If her lover isn't insulted then why are you? It isn't your place to be insulted for her.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Her words were about her lover, not about anyone else, you aren't in her head and as such cannot confirm any such phobia to her words. You take what you want to hear and run with all this hysteria, it's ludicrous. If her lover isn't insulted then why are you? It isn't your place to be insulted for her.

Why are women "ludicrous" and "hysterical" for wanting to discuss the limited language used to describe female masculinity?

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Why are women "ludicrous" and "hysterical" for wanting to discuss the limited language used to describe female masculinity?

This isn't worth a response. It's inflammatory. She isn't discussing she is insinuating. Frankly I'm done with it.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Heart

Here's how its sexist: it implies that a woman can't be masculine, that to be masculine you can only be described as a man. It implies that women can only be feminine. That's a sexist viewpoint in that it limits the definition of woman.

Here's how its homophobic: it implies that a gay woman is really a man wanna-be, a man with boobs, rather than what she is - a lesbian, dyke, queer, butch woman. That's a homophobic viewpoint in that it denigrates queer female identities

Here's how its misogynistic: it puts the value/emphasis on male (masculine equals man/male) and devalues the femaleness inherent in the identity. That's a misogynistic viewpoint in that it devalues femaleness and privileges maleness,

Voila!

Hm. I dont understand the leap from how one persons description of her partner translates into these points.

Do you really believe saying a partner is a man with boobs or a man with a vagina really fits these points?

I am back to we, as a community, cannot separate out the issues for ourselves. So, is it fair to judge people on the periphery who make off the cuff comments about their own situation and to assign our values to their words? I think not.

[Dylan]

Heart,

I totally get what you're saying, and I agree with you 100% if we're speaking generally.

Where I disagree with you 100% is that this comment was made about an individual by an individual who has wayyyyyyyy more intimate knowledge of the person in question. We have absolutely no idea how this particular couple sees themselves.

If Mahhh Woman called me a man without a penis, or a woman with boobs, or whatever, it's between us, and has nada to do with how the rest of the trans community sees the comment. It's nunya's business how Mahhh Woman and I interact with one another and how we refer to eachother.

Now, if Nixon or Mahhh Woman said it about all butches, or all transfolks, I'd have a problem with it...but she didn't.

But yeah, I totally agree with you in a generally-speaking sense.


Not That Mahhh Opinion Matters At All To You, But Jus' Sayin',
Dylan

P.S. I'd probably also feel differently if this comment had come from an activist in the community or someone of that stature...an actual 'representative' of the community...but it's just Cynthia Nixon. Like someone else mentioned, she's about as important to me as Anne Heche.