Men with boobs.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Heart

Anyhoo -- I think Bete asked a good question. It may be a different thread, but it's a good question. Bete - I think those words you mentioned are often erotically charged, which makes them quite different than routinely referring to butches as men I, however, would never call my female butch partner my "husband."

Heart

What about "Dude" "Bro" "Man"? (Man as in "Don't bogart that can, man" not as in MAN) "Bud" even, as far as I'm concerned, has male connotations. That shit gets thrown around constantly, and nobody bats an eye. I still fail to see how this is any different.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by betenoire

What about "Dude" "Bro" "Man"? (Man as in "Don't bogart that can, man" not as in MAN) "Bud" even, as far as I'm concerned, has male connotations. That shit gets thrown around constantly, and nobody bats an eye. I still fail to see how this is any different.

Hmmm... I kinda feel now like you''re just baiting me. I guess if you don't see the diff between generic "hay man," or " hey dude," and the way that CN attempted to explain/define her masculine female partner to the world as a "man with boobs" -- well, there sure isn't anything I'm gonna say that will make you see the difference.

By-the-way, recently when a male id'ed butch who is organizing on behalf of other butches of various identities referred to "brotherhood," I asked him if his organizing included "sisterhood." He allowed that it did.

Peace out dude.
Heart

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Heart

Hmmm... I kinda feel now like you''re just baiting me. I guess if you don't see the diff between generic "hay man," or " hey dude," and the way that CN attempted to explain/define her masculine female partner to the world as a "man with boobs" -- well, there sure isn't anything I'm gonna say that will make you see the difference.

By-the-way, recently when a male id'ed butch who is organizing on behalf of other butches of various identities referred to "brotherhood," I asked him if his organizing included "sisterhood." He allowed that it did.

Peace out dude.
Heart

I am not trying to bait you. I am simply drawing a parallel between describing a masculine female as "man with boobs" and referring to masculine females (regardless of their ID, level of relationship, preferred pronoun, etc) as "he" (cuz, lemme tell you - some Butches hate that) "husband" "bro" etc. BOTH of those practices insinuate that the masculine female is less....female.

And don't you ever call me dude again, are we understood? I would accept being called bitch before I would accept being called dude - now who's baiting whom?

[Heart]

Originally Posted by betenoire

And don't you ever call me dude again, are we understood? I would accept being called bitch before I would accept being called dude - now who's baiting whom?

Huh? Attempt at levity - nothing more.

Soooooooooooooooooo.... this was fun.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Heart

Huh? Attempt at levity - nothing more.

Soooooooooooooooooo.... this was fun.

Or you could apologise. Just a thought.

[Nat]

Are we holding Cynthia Nixon up to a certain standard because

she's with a butch woman?
she's a star?
she was an actor in Sex in the City?
she's a woman?

I think Heart has a point that describing a masculine woman as a "short man with boobs" is unfeminist and offensive.

If part of straight privilege is never being asked to speak for everyone who is heterosexual, is it fair for us to expect her to speak for every butch and every person who has ever loved a butch? Do you read her as defining every butch when she describes her own partner that way?

How can we encourage her to do better next time? Should we all write her letters? Books, perhaps? An invitation to join the site?

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by Nat

How can we encourage her to do better next time? Should we all write her letters? Books, perhaps? An invitation to join the site?

I actually LOVE the idea of writing letters! (and getting her to join the site would be great too!)

Here is her fansite: http://www.cynthianixon.net/


and Im looking for more.


Incidentally, Here is a link to an article where someone *PRAISES* Cynthia Nixon for the "man with boobs" quote.
http://www.metrowny.com/blogs/archiv...75b0xw00d.html
Perhaps she needs a letter too

[Nat]

I looked at the site and didn't see an email address. Did you?

she also has a facebook

Letter-writing it is then?

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Nat

Are we holding Cynthia Nixon up to a certain standard because

she's with a butch woman?
she's a star?
she was an actor in Sex in the City?
she's a woman?

I think Heart has a point that describing a masculine woman as a "short man with boobs" is unfeminist and offensive.

If part of straight privilege is never being asked to speak for everyone who is heterosexual, is it fair for us to expect her to speak for every butch and every person who has ever loved a butch? Do you read her as defining every butch when she describes her own partner that way?

How can we encourage her to do better next time? Should we all write her letters? Books, perhaps? An invitation to join the site?

I'm going to say this one last time and then I'm out cause I'm finally pissed (not at you Nat).

I am NOT NOT NOT holding CN up to any standard for any reason. I used her comments (which I do obviously have an opinion about) to make a point about US, about OUR community, about the continual erasure of female/masculine/butch identities. This thread bears that out and I am holding THIS COMMUNITY up to a standard.

I'm pissed because so many responders here lectured me about accepting individual identities, or claimed that there's nothing to address unless we know all about the personal nature of CN and CM's relationship, or called me hysterical, or demanded an apology because I used the word "dude," while its a-okay to call a butch a "short man with boobs."

My intent was continually derailed because basically no one wants to have this conversation. Would it have been SOOOOO hard to stop for a second and consider what I'm saying? That masculine women identified butches are not men, and do not need to be compared to men in order to be defined or understood. That's it. What is so freakin' hard to understand? What is the argument? Why is there such a knee-jerk reaction every damn time the words "woman" and "butch" are brought up in the same sentence? I don't even get where the combativeness comes from.

Contact Cynthia Nixon, but I have no idea what anyone's point to her will be. Certainly not the point I'm making, since that has been hopelessly obscured.

[Toughy]

by Heart
My intent was continually derailed because basically no one wants to have this conversation. Would it have been SOOOOO hard to stop for a second and consider what I'm saying? That masculine women identified butches are not men, and do not need to be compared to men in order to be defined or understood. That's it. What is so freakin' hard to understand? What is the argument? Why is there such a knee-jerk reaction every damn time the words "woman" and "butch" are brought up in the same sentence? I don't even get where the combativeness comes from.

...........word.............

[Nat]

Originally Posted by Heart

I'm going to say this one last time and then I'm out cause I'm finally pissed (not at you Nat).

I am NOT NOT NOT holding CN up to any standard for any reason. I used her comments (which I do obviously have an opinion about) to make a point about US, about OUR community, about the continual erasure of female/masculine/butch identities. This thread bears that out and I am holding THIS COMMUNITY up to a standard.

I'm pissed because so many responders here lectured me about accepting individual identities, or claimed that there's nothing to address unless we know all about the personal nature of CN and CM's relationship, or called me hysterical, or demanded an apology because I used the word "dude," while its a-okay to call a butch a "short man with boobs."

My intent was continually derailed because basically no one wants to have this conversation. Would it have been SOOOOO hard to stop for a second and consider what I'm saying? That masculine women identified butches are not men, and do not need to be compared to men in order to be defined or understood. That's it. What is so freakin' hard to understand? What is the argument? Why is there such a knee-jerk reaction every damn time the words "woman" and "butch" are brought up in the same sentence? I don't even get where the combativeness comes from.

Contact Cynthia Nixon, but I have no idea what anyone's point to her will be. Certainly not the point I'm making, since that has been hopelessly obscured.

Heart - I understand and agree with the bolded part and I applaud your efforts in this thread.

I think what's going on in this thread is complex and interesting.

I think bringing CN into this has brought up a lot of other issues and values that many of us differ on. I don't even know where I would personally begin untangling it, and I think it's likely that you would find it frustrating if I tried.

I do think that you are thinking on sort of a double-meta level, and when you pulled a real world example, you got a lot of different reactions because we all value different things and we are all at different points in the conversation, in our identities, in our experiences, etc.

I'm sorry you're frustrated.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Heart

My intent was continually derailed because basically no one wants to have this conversation. Would it have been SOOOOO hard to stop for a second and consider what I'm saying? That masculine women identified butches are not men, and do not need to be compared to men in order to be defined or understood. That's it. What is so freakin' hard to understand? What is the argument? Why is there such a knee-jerk reaction every damn time the words "woman" and "butch" are brought up in the same sentence? I don't even get where the combativeness comes from.

Contact Cynthia Nixon, but I have no idea what anyone's point to her will be. Certainly not the point I'm making, since that has been hopelessly obscured.

Heart, I am going to tell you that I think you are being unfair and single-minded in your quest to make others agree with you rather than actually discuss this. Do you honestly want discussion or do you want conversion on this topic? Because I'm not sure. My gut reaction is that you want discussion but it feels like conversion to me. I own that reaction might simply be my own baggage.

I think there is a created hatred between female-id butches and masculine-id butches. I'm not sure who or how or why it got created, but it is a virus in our community.

Personally, I ask folks how they id if they are of the butch persuasion. Yes, I will default to he because I'm lazy--not because I devalue women. However, I also ask people which pronoun they prefer because that's important to me--to use the language they want used.

However, I often feel as though in threads like this, I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for female-id butches who are called he. I also feel that I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for masculine-id butches who get called she.

Sometimes I don't think I can win at this contrived freaking id game. I really don't.

And I am not sure I want to.

Now before anyone jumps down my throat, let me explain why.

I'm freaking tired of the id game. I battle my own id war all the time (except when I am in a specifically BF group) so sometimes, you will have to forgive me for not giving a rat's patootie about anyone else's id.

I do stand for someone's right to be called what they want. I do honor a person's choice in their id.

I do not honor the notion that because X, Y and X butches are female-id, it means A, B, and C's masculinity is feminized. How can one person's personal choice of id be affected by someone's else's?

I guess I'm truly tired right now and this discussion is working my last queer nerve.

Bottom line. I can see where calling a butch woman a "man with boobs" is offensive. I believe I even said that here. I will remove the personalization inherently added by the fact that it was said by someone in the news. I will remove the personalization of wondering whether or not her partner gives a flying rat's patoot about it.

I just wonder if we will ever have a day, an hour, a nanosecond where my choice of id doesn't interfere with your(generic) choice of id.

If I can state that I don't id as a (fill in the blank), without pissing off/offending/hurting all those who do id as a (fill in the same blank).

That's what I get so damned tired of. Linus' id doesn't affect Jackhammer's. Jackhammer's doesn't affect Met's. Met's doesn't affect Boots13. ad nauseum

Does anyone think we can ever get there? Where we don't even need discussions about female-id vs butch-id? Where it just doesn't freaking matter?

I just get so tired.