Men with boobs.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Out of how many sites, how many threads, how many years (!)*butch* identity gets discussed/analysed, deconstructed (and put back together again!), it goes on and on.

There have been some awesome people who have started great *Femme* threads, but, constantly, the threads that get the most feedback are about BUTCHES (FIB and MIB) /TG/MEN of our community and their identities.

What is that about their (butch/female and male dependent) identities that make for the most heated (and most interesting!) conversations when femme threads do not get half the attention?

If you have any thoughts to flesh that out I would love to hear them.
What strikes me first is the idea of transgression: of what it means to be female in the case of butch women, and of what gender means in the case of transgender male butches. Transgression and deconstruction of any sort is a very popular meme in the post modern culture which largely concerns itself with dismantling. Perhaps "Femme" is more creationist than deconstuctionist? Just a thought.

Or is it pure misogyny?
Look forward to more on this.

[Nat]

Maybe it's transgression that makes this discussion so much more of a focal point than any discussion involving feminine experience, or maybe it's controversy or maybe it's a masculine topic and therefore deemed more worthy of discussion...

Every once in a while, I find myself reading (perhaps imagining?) a certain strain within this type of thread that feels like this to me:

The masculine folks demanding more respect from the feminine folks than they already get while at the same time being less than respectful toward feminine folks who get it "wrong." I see masculine folks complaining about femme "laziness" and "apathy" and such for not always getting things right. Most femmes I know have bent over backwards for the butches they know or have known in an attempt to understand and be respectful of them. I even see masculine (and feminine) folks blaming the behavior of feminine folks for the behavior of masculine folks who send mixed messages about their own IDs - which I think is actually the most infantilizing, demeaning assertion regarding masculine community members that I've seen in this thread.

I really want to be on board with whatever I need to be on board with to be an ally to every member of this community, and when I read about how femmes are being perceived as so lazy and apathetic, I feel exasperated, frustrated, helpless and disrespected as a femme. It's soooo sexist to call a butch by the wrong pronoun, to misinterpret their gender or to misrepresent them to the heterocentric world, but complaining about how femmes aren't being nurturing, attentive, understanding or respectful enough toward masculine folks - that doesn't hint at misogyny?

You know what I don't see a lot of? I don't see a lot of feminine people here in threads talking about how lazy or thoughtless the masculine folks here are for not understanding and respecting the feminine folks enough. Do you think it's because we (feminine folks) feel like we always get respect from the masculine folks?

I have been guilty of defaulting to different pronouns in the past. To me there are two different main types of default. There is the default pronoun used in hypothetical situations and then there is using a default pronoun with a specific person, regardless of how they ID. I have mostly been guilty of the first type of default, but I know there are times I have slipped with the second.

Guess what? It's freaking hard. It's hard to remember, it's hard to keep track. Some of the masculine folks I've known from this community have even changed pronouns and identities sometimes more than once over a matter of months or years. It's hard to keep track, it's hard to always get it right. To me, it does become a laundry list, and at some point, the amount of psychic energy it takes to remember every single masculine member of the community's preference becomes too much.

How much time and energy does a masculine member of the community feel they need to spend talking to an individual femme about their gender experience, identity, pronouns, etc, before they consider her apathetic and disrespectful for not knowing their stuff? Do they know her stuff? Are they invested in her, or do they just expect her to be invested in them no matter how much or how little they respect or even think about her?

It seems like many of the masculine folks here want all this "respect" and really sometimes I feel like the respect which is being demanded is actually being confused with male privilege. And if male privilege does exist on this site, then maybe working toward dismantling it together would be the better option than demanding to receive equal share in it.

PS. I am mutilating the English language by purposefully using "they" and "them" as gender-neutral singular pronouns in the above post. As odious as this is for my poor English major brain, I think I'm going to make it a habit. I just didn't feel like writing "her/hir/hym/him" a hundred times. Sorry, my dear English.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Dylan

And not just penetration. Lately it seems like anything less than stone equals 'less than'

Exactly! And Fuck That. (God, I love to say Fuck That about things I don't like.)

I remember -very- clearly a conversation on the boards at the other site, where some (annoying) Femme was all up in arms about how penetration "emasculates" a Butch - that was her explanation as to why she was a "stonefemme". Fuck That. I kept saying over and over again that her statement implied that she thinks that Butches who -do- like to have their "down there's" played with are less than authentic Butches. And do you know what? SHE AGREED THAT THAT WAS WHAT SHE THOUGHT and tried to defend that it was accurate.

I was so pissed. I'm still so pissed. God, had she said that she simply didn't like to do it because she thinks that the stuff between her lover's legs was icky..I would have been less pissed off than what I was. (Although, that would have pissed me off too.)

On that same coin / opposite side - what the fresh fuck is it with Femmes who partner with Stone Butches being called "High Femmes"? I'm not liking that particular insinuation of hierarchy. So because I like to do all sorts of things to my lover's "down there" (hee hee, I am refusing to say vagina!) I am less/low Femme. Again - Fuck That.

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

What is that about their (butch/female and male dependent) identities that make for the most heated (and most interesting!) conversations when femme threads do not get half the attention?

No idea. But your observation is spot on.

Originally Posted by apretty

don't get me started on how stone doesn't even exist.

Pretty lady, one day you can tell me alllllll about it over coffee. Mwah!

[AtLast]

[QUOTE=betenoire;106496]Exactly! And Fuck That. (God, I love to say Fuck That about things I don't like.)

I remember -very- clearly a conversation on the boards at the other site, where some (annoying) Femme was all up in arms about how penetration "emasculates" a Butch - that was her explanation as to why she was a "stonefemme". Fuck That. I kept saying over and over again that her statement implied that she thinks that Butches who -do- like to have their "down there's" played with are less than authentic Butches. And do you know what? SHE AGREED THAT THAT WAS WHAT SHE THOUGHT and tried to defend that it was accurate.

I was so pissed. I'm still so pissed. God, had she said that she simply didn't like to do it because she thinks that the stuff between her lover's legs was icky..I would have been less pissed off than what I was. (Although, that would have pissed me off too.)

On that same coin / opposite side - what the fresh fuck is it with Femmes who partner with Stone Butches being called "High Femmes"? I'm not liking that particular insinuation of hierarchy. So because I like to do all sorts of things to my lover's "down there" (hee hee, I am refusing to say vagina!) I am less/low Femme. Again - Fuck That.

QUOTE]

Love your Fuck Thats!

I am confused, or just haven't heard/read this: On that same coin / opposite side - what the fresh fuck is it with Femmes who partner with Stone Butches being called "High Femmes"?

I don't get it. Don't much care for any hierarchy, actually. But, I think I just don't understand what this is all about. How and why this insinuation is even made. Thanks.

Also, all of the less than/more of garbage about butches or femmes makes me crazy! Why are we so wrapped-up in this kind of stuff? Has it always been like this in the B-F community? For a community that shouts about diversity being such an important aspect, the narrowness in what is butch or femme and to what degree is astounding.

OMG, I'm cussing!!

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by betenoire

On that same coin / opposite side - what the fresh fuck is it with Femmes who partner with Stone Butches being called "High Femmes"?

This is a bit of a generalization that I've heard before. Not all do id that way.

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Love your Fuck Thats!

I don't get it. Don't much care for any hierarchy, actually. But, I think I just don't understand what this is all about. How and why this insinuation is even made. Thanks.

Also, all of the less than/more of garbage about butches or femmes makes me crazy! Why are we so wrapped-up in this kind of stuff? Has it always been like this in the B-F community? For a community that shouts about diversity being such an important aspect, the narrowness in what is butch or femme and to what degree is astounding.

OMG, I'm cussing!!

Uh oh. . Cuss away.

There are so many identities in our community, I suppose it is quite easy to be confused by them all and, according to where someone lives and their exposure to various identities throughout their lives, most may never be exposed to them all. And then, just when someone has it all figured out, the identities will evolve. So, it's not about the identities, but the people who carry them in their hearts and on their sleeve, so I agree with you about tearing one another down. It's garbage. It's almost like the intolerance we feel towards our community as a whole has been encapsulated and turned inward. Energy, especially negative, doesn't die...it has to go somewhere and so we use it to strike out at our own.

*rambling*

[BullDog]

These are great points from AtLast and Gemme. You know we talk about fighting the binary and being in favor of gender diversity all the time, but at the same time there also seems to be a tendency to want to stereotype and simplify as well. To a certain degree that may be human nature. We may all gravitate towards what we are most familiar with.

However, if we really do want to fight the binary, let's start within our own community. Saying that only having two genders- man and woman - is limiting and then having narrow meanings of what femme and butch are or perpetuating stereotypes doesn't get us far at all. That's not to say many haven't been trying hard already, but I am sure we can all try to do better and broaden and deepen our understandings of each other.

Yes it can be hard to remember pronouns, it can be hard to understand all the different genders and gender expressions if you aren't familiar with them or aren't exposed to them in real time. None of this necessarily easy, but with a gender diverse community there will be more variables. That's what diversity means in the first place.

[Queerasfck]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Exactly! And Fuck That. (God, I love to say Fuck That about things I don't like.)

I was so pissed. I'm still so pissed. I would have been less pissed off than what I was. (Although, that would have pissed me off too.)

Imagine that, Betenoire pissed off. Unbelievable. It's almost surreal.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by EzeeTiger

Imagine that, Betenoire pissed off. Unbelievable. It's almost surreal.

Wow, Ezee. While I do love a being on the receiving end of a good razzing, I saw that you were the last person to post and was expecting some smartypants insight...so I'm feeling a little bit let-down.

Do you have anything to add to the conversation, Tiger?

(I loooooove your ladyfriend.)

[Queerasfck]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Wow, Ezee. While I do love a being on the receiving end of a good razzing, I saw that you were the last person to post and was expecting some smartypants insight...so I'm feeling a little bit let-down.

Do you have anything to add to the conversation, Tiger?

(I loooooove your ladyfriend.)

Add ins:

• I try to treat all people with respect
• What goes on between consenting adults isn't really that interesting to me (most of the time)
• I get off just fine

I think that's it.

[oneye]

Originally Posted by betenoire

where some (annoying) Femme was all up in arms about how penetration "emasculates" a Butch - that was her explanation as to why she was a "stonefemme". Fuck That. I kept saying over and over again that her statement implied that she thinks that Butches who -do- like to have their "down there's" played with are less than authentic Butches. And do you know what? SHE AGREED THAT THAT WAS WHAT SHE THOUGHT and tried to defend that it was accurate.

i soooooooooo do not want to get embroiled in this ongoing battle of the wits (and the wittiest), but i will say that, on the other site, i was the recipient of this line of judgement...that i was less because i get pleasure out of the attentions of my wife to my most private of places. i don't see how that dictates the LEVEL of butch that i am or whether or not i'm a true butch. further, i felt very put off by the notion that, although i see myself as primarily masculinely identified, the things that i share with my wife in the privacy of our bedroom somehow belittle or degrade or negate my identity...specifically my 'trans butch' identity. it doesn't seem to me that anyone but my wife and i should determine this. further, in my simple mind, it seems to me that this should be how it is in ANY relationship...gay, straight, et al.

and now, i shall await the inevitable slinging of mud. heh...

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by oneye

i soooooooooo do not want to get embroiled in this ongoing battle of the wits (and the wittiest), but i will say that, on the other site, i was the recipient of this line of judgement...that i was less because i get pleasure out of the attentions of my wife to my most private of places. i don't see how that dictates the LEVEL of butch that i am or whether or not i'm a true butch. further, i felt very put off by the notion that, although i see myself as primarily masculinely identified, the things that i share with my wife in the privacy of our bedroom somehow belittle or degrade or negate my identity...specifically my 'trans butch' identity. it doesn't seem to me that anyone but my wife and i should determine this. further, in my simple mind, it seems to me that this should be how it is in ANY relationship...gay, straight, et al.

and now, i shall await the inevitable slinging of mud. heh...

That's funny. I've always recv'd an inordinate amount of shit over the attentions I pay to MY Beloved's most private of places. The majority of the flack has come from other Femme's but is not exclusive to them. It never ceases to shock and upset me...that my Beloved and I are somehow *other* for the things we do to each others bodies.

[betenoire]

Oh, and I really -really- need to clarify that I don't think that anybody who is Stone is bad. Or lazy or weird or anything else. I need to clarify that before somebody takes it the wrong way and gets their feelings hurts, cuz aside from the rare case that I get a personal vendetta going (and you gotta hurt one of my friends to be on the receiving end of that) I don't like to hurt people's feelings.

I'm taking inventory in my head of the people I've dated, and it seems like I've been with as many people who were Stone as people who weren't. (There's actually only a difference of one.)

For me, I'm a pleaser. And by "pleaser" I mean I like to do whatever it is that the person that I'm with would like me to do. I have no boundaries in terms of things that I won't do, and very few in terms of things that I won't have done to me. And that includes not being squicked out if someone wants me to not touch their organic stuff. I'm comfortable either way, and perfectly happy provided that the person that I am with at that time is respected and comfortable and happy sexually. Does that make sense?

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Oh, and I really -really- need to clarify that I don't think that anybody who is Stone is bad. Or lazy or weird or anything else. I need to clarify that before somebody takes it the wrong way and gets their feelings hurts, cuz aside from the rare case that I get a personal vendetta going (and you gotta hurt one of my friends to be on the receiving end of that) I don't like to hurt people's feelings.

I'm taking inventory in my head of the people I've dated, and it seems like I've been with as many people who were Stone as people who weren't. (There's actually only a difference of one.)

For me, I'm a pleaser. And by "pleaser" I mean I like to do whatever it is that the person that I'm with would like me to do. I have no boundaries in terms of things that I won't do, and very few in terms of things that I won't have done to me. And that includes not being squicked out if someone wants me to not touch their organic stuff. I'm comfortable either way, and perfectly happy provided that the person that I am with at that time is respected and comfortable and happy sexually. Does that make sense?

Can we pretend that we both authored this post?

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

That's funny. I've always recv'd an inordinate amount of shit over the attentions I pay to MY Beloved's most private of places. The majority of the flack has come from other Femme's but is not exclusive to them. It never ceases to shock and upset me...that my Beloved and I are somehow *other* for the things we do to each others bodies.

Right, so there are some very stupid people out there who not only think that our lovers are less masculine if they want us to, and that we are less feminine if we want to. Fuck that.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Nat

Maybe it's transgression that makes this discussion so much more of a focal point than any discussion involving feminine experience, or maybe it's controversy or maybe it's a masculine topic and therefore deemed more worthy of discussion...

Every once in a while, I find myself reading (perhaps imagining?) a certain strain within this type of thread that feels like this to me:

The masculine folks demanding more respect from the feminine folks than they already get while at the same time being less than respectful toward feminine folks who get it "wrong." I see masculine folks complaining about femme "laziness" and "apathy" and such for not always getting things right. Most femmes I know have bent over backwards for the butches they know or have known in an attempt to understand and be respectful of them. I even see masculine (and feminine) folks blaming the behavior of feminine folks for the behavior of masculine folks who send mixed messages about their own IDs - which I think is actually the most infantilizing, demeaning assertion regarding masculine community members that I've seen in this thread.

I am one of them masculine folks Nat who don't get respect from both ends of the spectrum, from my femme counterparts I hear things as, "ew that ain't femme", "Ew you fuck your guys?", "ew that boy is such a waste" I don't feel that anyone is bending over backwards for just butches in general, as I see it if a butch or guy went into a thread and said something about a femme, we as femme's would be all up on that shit... I know we would, so as a femme *I* see where femme's are flippant when it comes to how butches want to be seen or addressed.

I really want to be on board with whatever I need to be on board with to be an ally to every member of this community, and when I read about how femmes are being perceived as so lazy and apathetic, I feel exasperated, frustrated, helpless and disrespected as a femme. It's soooo sexist to call a butch by the wrong pronoun, to misinterpret their gender or to misrepresent them to the heterocentric world, but complaining about how femmes aren't being nurturing, attentive, understanding or respectful enough toward masculine folks - that doesn't hint at misogyny?

I don't think any butch up in here is asking for a nurse maid, I don't see how asking to respect someone's pronoun choice is sexist, it is NOT FAIR that we impose the *he* trump card on all of our masculine looking community members, it is unfair to question their masculinity if it does not fit our mind mold, and please don't tell me it does not happen, I can name a good 15 incidents... Any one remember a member purposely calling Toughy a Miss? I do, and I was disgusted at the venom it came with, from a femme... not a butch a femme..

You know what I don't see a lot of? I don't see a lot of feminine people here in threads talking about how lazy or thoughtless the masculine folks here are for not understanding and respecting the feminine folks enough. Do you think it's because we (feminine folks) feel like we always get respect from the masculine folks?

*I* personally can start a thread about how lazy and thoughtless both guys/butches and femme's are thoughtfulness when it comes to understanding my masculinity.

I have been guilty of defaulting to different pronouns in the past. To me there are two different main types of default. There is the default pronoun used in hypothetical situations and then there is using a default pronoun with a specific person, regardless of how they ID. I have mostly been guilty of the first type of default, but I know there are times I have slipped with the second.

Guess what? It's freaking hard. It's hard to remember, it's hard to keep track. Some of the masculine folks I've known from this community have even changed pronouns and identities sometimes more than once over a matter of months or years. It's hard to keep track, it's hard to always get it right. To me, it does become a laundry list, and at some point, the amount of psychic energy it takes to remember every single masculine member of the community's preference becomes too much.

This community is always evolving, *I* care enough to keep my eyes and ears open and pay attention to how someone is addressed or how they want to be, it's not hard, it's what one does when one is part of a community such as this.. If we didn't and all became how do I put this... Blah about it because it's hard, then what happens?

How much time and energy does a masculine member of the community feel they need to spend talking to an individual femme about their gender experience, identity, pronouns, etc, before they consider her apathetic and disrespectful for not knowing their stuff? Do they know her stuff? Are they invested in her, or do they just expect her to be invested in them no matter how much or how little they respect or even think about her?

As long as they need and want, I don't have to have a huggy relationship with say Bulldog to respect what she wants or needs from me as a member of this place, I don't need a kiss kiss on the cheek to listen to Rope's he wants and needs from me as his ally. I use them because they reciprocate this respect towards me... Now if someone was not, I am good with calling them on their bullshit...

It seems like many of the masculine folks here want all this "respect" and really sometimes I feel like the respect which is being demanded is actually being confused with male privilege. And if male privilege does exist on this site, then maybe working toward dismantling it together would be the better option than demanding to receive equal share in it.

As a masculine folk I would appreciate that is respected, it is part of me, funny though no one refers to me as a he automatically, what do you think?

PS. I am mutilating the English language by purposefully using "they" and "them" as gender-neutral singular pronouns in the above post. As odious as this is for my poor English major brain, I think I'm going to make it a habit. I just didn't feel like writing "her/hir/hym/him" a hundred times. Sorry, my dear English.

These are just my thoughts on your post... Thanks for listening

[Dylan]

I'm just going to start he'ing all the femmes who say 'but it's so hard' and then I'll use the excuse 'eh, he/she, how am I supposed to keep everyone straight?'

And then if I get super called on it, I am just going to say, 'well it's just cuz you look like a man'


I'm Sure Femmes Should Just Suck That Up, Cuz It Ain't EZ Having To Remember All This Shit...Oh, And If There's A Fight About It, I'm Then Going To Tell The Femmes Who Don't Appreciate ME Choosing Their Pronoun For Them That It's Sexist To Call Me Out,
Dylan

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Nat

Maybe it's transgression that makes this discussion so much more of a focal point than any discussion involving feminine experience, or maybe it's controversy or maybe it's a masculine topic and therefore deemed more worthy of discussion...

Every once in a while, I find myself reading (perhaps imagining?) a certain strain within this type of thread that feels like this to me:

The masculine folks demanding more respect from the feminine folks than they already get while at the same time being less than respectful toward feminine folks who get it "wrong." I see masculine folks complaining about femme "laziness" and "apathy" and such for not always getting things right. Most femmes I know have bent over backwards for the butches they know or have known in an attempt to understand and be respectful of them. I even see masculine (and feminine) folks blaming the behavior of feminine folks for the behavior of masculine folks who send mixed messages about their own IDs - which I think is actually the most infantilizing, demeaning assertion regarding masculine community members that I've seen in this thread.

I really want to be on board with whatever I need to be on board with to be an ally to every member of this community, and when I read about how femmes are being perceived as so lazy and apathetic, I feel exasperated, frustrated, helpless and disrespected as a femme. It's soooo sexist to call a butch by the wrong pronoun, to misinterpret their gender or to misrepresent them to the heterocentric world, but complaining about how femmes aren't being nurturing, attentive, understanding or respectful enough toward masculine folks - that doesn't hint at misogyny?

You know what I don't see a lot of? I don't see a lot of feminine people here in threads talking about how lazy or thoughtless the masculine folks here are for not understanding and respecting the feminine folks enough. Do you think it's because we (feminine folks) feel like we always get respect from the masculine folks?

I have been guilty of defaulting to different pronouns in the past. To me there are two different main types of default. There is the default pronoun used in hypothetical situations and then there is using a default pronoun with a specific person, regardless of how they ID. I have mostly been guilty of the first type of default, but I know there are times I have slipped with the second.

Guess what? It's freaking hard. It's hard to remember, it's hard to keep track. Some of the masculine folks I've known from this community have even changed pronouns and identities sometimes more than once over a matter of months or years. It's hard to keep track, it's hard to always get it right. To me, it does become a laundry list, and at some point, the amount of psychic energy it takes to remember every single masculine member of the community's preference becomes too much.

How much time and energy does a masculine member of the community feel they need to spend talking to an individual femme about their gender experience, identity, pronouns, etc, before they consider her apathetic and disrespectful for not knowing their stuff? Do they know her stuff? Are they invested in her, or do they just expect her to be invested in them no matter how much or how little they respect or even think about her?

It seems like many of the masculine folks here want all this "respect" and really sometimes I feel like the respect which is being demanded is actually being confused with male privilege. And if male privilege does exist on this site, then maybe working toward dismantling it together would be the better option than demanding to receive equal share in it.

PS. I am mutilating the English language by purposefully using "they" and "them" as gender-neutral singular pronouns in the above post. As odious as this is for my poor English major brain, I think I'm going to make it a habit. I just didn't feel like writing "her/hir/hym/him" a hundred times. Sorry, my dear English.

I had a longer post, point-counter point but I deleted it.

Personally speaking... your post is frustrating. "Masculine folks" aren't suggesting or demanding that feminine folks give more respect them than they already do, (or deserve that's how I read it) and hardly in need of nurturing (ironically that feels to me somewhat demeaning and infantilizing of masculine identities). I'm quite a few decades beyond needing a mommy in my life.

I have met very few butches or trans people etc. who behave in the manner you've described toward femmes, yes, BUT for the hugely vastly majority I see us having a great deal of admiration and respect toward femmes. So... although I admittedly do feel somewhat personally dissed by your words as far as the generalization of what masculine identities think/need/want... that part about how you feel we perceive femmes role to us bothers me the most.

I'm sorry you feel this way, but we're not all assholes, well I can be an asshole but I'd sure as hell hope not in that context. I've always tried to give the same respect that I ask for, no matter the "ID".

Asking to be called by the proper pronoun doesn't seem like it should be a big deal to me, I'm always amazed by the resistance to it... not that that is what you're doing, but sometimes the responses are baffling.

This post probably isn't all the pertinent to the conversation, but oh well.

Metro

[blush]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Out of how many sites, how many threads, how many years (!)*butch* identity gets discussed/analysed, deconstructed (and put back together again!), it goes on and on.

There have been some awesome people who have started great *Femme* threads, but, constantly, the threads that get the most feedback are about BUTCHES (FIB and MIB) /TG/MEN of our community and their identities.

What is that about their (butch/female and male dependent) identities that make for the most heated (and most interesting!) conversations when femme threads do not get half the attention?

Originally Posted by Nat

Maybe it's transgression that makes this discussion so much more of a focal point than any discussion involving feminine experience, or maybe it's controversy or maybe it's a masculine topic and therefore deemed more worthy of discussion...

Every once in a while, I find myself reading (perhaps imagining?) a certain strain within this type of thread that feels like this to me:

The masculine folks demanding more respect from the feminine folks than they already get while at the same time being less than respectful toward feminine folks who get it "wrong." I see masculine folks complaining about femme "laziness" and "apathy" and such for not always getting things right. Most femmes I know have bent over backwards for the butches they know or have known in an attempt to understand and be respectful of them. I even see masculine (and feminine) folks blaming the behavior of feminine folks for the behavior of masculine folks who send mixed messages about their own IDs - which I think is actually the most infantilizing, demeaning assertion regarding masculine community members that I've seen in this thread.

I really want to be on board with whatever I need to be on board with to be an ally to every member of this community, and when I read about how femmes are being perceived as so lazy and apathetic, I feel exasperated, frustrated, helpless and disrespected as a femme. It's soooo sexist to call a butch by the wrong pronoun, to misinterpret their gender or to misrepresent them to the heterocentric world, but complaining about how femmes aren't being nurturing, attentive, understanding or respectful enough toward masculine folks - that doesn't hint at misogyny?

You know what I don't see a lot of? I don't see a lot of feminine people here in threads talking about how lazy or thoughtless the masculine folks here are for not understanding and respecting the feminine folks enough. Do you think it's because we (feminine folks) feel like we always get respect from the masculine folks?

I have been guilty of defaulting to different pronouns in the past. To me there are two different main types of default. There is the default pronoun used in hypothetical situations and then there is using a default pronoun with a specific person, regardless of how they ID. I have mostly been guilty of the first type of default, but I know there are times I have slipped with the second.

Guess what? It's freaking hard. It's hard to remember, it's hard to keep track. Some of the masculine folks I've known from this community have even changed pronouns and identities sometimes more than once over a matter of months or years. It's hard to keep track, it's hard to always get it right. To me, it does become a laundry list, and at some point, the amount of psychic energy it takes to remember every single masculine member of the community's preference becomes too much.

How much time and energy does a masculine member of the community feel they need to spend talking to an individual femme about their gender experience, identity, pronouns, etc, before they consider her apathetic and disrespectful for not knowing their stuff? Do they know her stuff? Are they invested in her, or do they just expect her to be invested in them no matter how much or how little they respect or even think about her?

It seems like many of the masculine folks here want all this "respect" and really sometimes I feel like the respect which is being demanded is actually being confused with male privilege. And if male privilege does exist on this site, then maybe working toward dismantling it together would be the better option than demanding to receive equal share in it.

PS. I am mutilating the English language by purposefully using "they" and "them" as gender-neutral singular pronouns in the above post. As odious as this is for my poor English major brain, I think I'm going to make it a habit. I just didn't feel like writing "her/hir/hym/him" a hundred times. Sorry, my dear English.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems to me that both of these posts speak to that frustration femmes feel about pronouns. The one that acknowledges that sometimes it's fucking hard for ALL of us to keep pronouns straight. Yet femmes are most likely to be called out if we get the pronoun wrong. Why is that? To admit that it's hard sometimes is just that: admitting that it's hard. So what. It doesn't mean it's not worth it, or we don't fully understand the why and how of it.

However, it has gotten to the point that if a femme acknowledges that it's difficult sometimes to keep pronouns straight, we are slapped as not caring enough about a butch's or transperson's identity. We aren't trying hard enough. We don't understand. We want to emasculate you.

Are femmes held more accountable for pronoun mis-naming whether intentional or not? It sure feels that way.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by blush

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems to me that both of these posts speak to that frustration femmes feel about pronouns. The one that acknowledges that sometimes it's fucking hard for ALL of us to keep pronouns straight. Yet femmes are most likely to be called out if we get the pronoun wrong. Why is that? To admit that it's hard sometimes is just that: admitting that it's hard. So what. It doesn't mean it's not worth it, or we don't fully understand the why and how of it.

However, it has gotten to the point that if a femme acknowledges that it's difficult sometimes to keep pronouns straight, we are slapped as not caring enough about a butch's or transperson's identity. We aren't trying hard enough. We don't understand. We want to emasculate you.

Are femmes held more accountable for pronoun mis-naming whether intentional or not? It sure feels that way.

No, my post wasn't so much about pronouns--I'm pretty solid about noticing and/or remembering people's preferences.

I was just making an observation that the topic of butch and masculine/male identities garner so much more attention and discussion than threads which attempt to explore femme identities/experiences. And, yes, there is some frustration with that fact but some interesting ideas were posited about why that may be.

[blush]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

No, my post wasn't so much about pronouns--I'm pretty solid about noticing and/or remembering people's preferences.

I was just making an observation that the topic of butch and masculine/male identities garner so much more attention and discussion than threads which attempt to explore femme identities/experiences. And, yes, there is some frustration with that fact but some interesting ideas were posited about why that may be.

My initial response was more relevant to what you had posted. I edited it.
Sorry for the confusion.

I think we're all pretty solid on our awareness of people's preferences. But I think femmes are held more accountable than other people if the pronoun is incorrect, or if she admits that sometimes it's hard.