The Femme Continuum: The "Highs" and "Lows" of Visibility

[Pretty Woman]

No queer police here, to the contrary actually. Sorry I don't get that benefit of the doubt here on this all-inclusive and welcoming/loving femme thread. And as to the MSM 'validating us' if either LS or SF would read my post instead of yelling a me you would see that I agree with you. What I was trying to say is that the MSM portrayals are what reinforces alot of 'the other' as we move out into the real world and interact with folks not on this site.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

No queer police here, to the contrary actually. Sorry I don't get that benefit of the doubt here on this all-inclusive and welcoming/loving femme thread. And as to the MSM 'validating us' if either LS or SF would read my post instead of yelling a me you would see that I agree with you. What I was trying to say is that the MSM portrayals are what reinforces alot of 'the other' as we move out into the real world and interact with folks not on this site.

PW I was not being unwelcoming, nor was I yelling at you, I thought I had made it clear that I did not get your post. I did disagree with the way you worded Portia's queer status, I don't feel that is right.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

No queer police here, to the contrary actually. Sorry I don't get that benefit of the doubt here on this all-inclusive and welcoming/loving femme thread. And as to the MSM 'validating us' if either LS or SF would read my post instead of yelling a me you would see that I agree with you. What I was trying to say is that the MSM portrayals are what reinforces alot of 'the other' as we move out into the real world and interact with folks not on this site.

I don't think they are "yelling" at you... (and I am sure they will correct me if I am wrong) the fortunate part of being around here a long time is you get to know personalities and how people write...

They are fierce femmes

I've said this in another thread...while I don't think stars are the end-all-be-all in terms of representing the gay community, I believe they have some bit of responsibility to not act like assholes. I mean, they all make mistakes and do dumb things in the eye of the media, but is it really so smart to lambaste them when they use the wrong pronoun or say something not as evolved as we try to be?

I'm really an advocate for education; esp for stars and media types.

[Medusa]

I get a little irked about movie stars or singers being representative of the LGBTQIA community, especially when so many of them have been sanitized by their agents as to be more "acceptable".

Look at Rachel Maddow. Perfectly fine Lesbian who was kinda "dolled up" when she got her tv show.
Ellen? Same thing.

Hollywood culture is (to me) generally vapid anyway so Im really not all that suprised when people make asshattish comments.

Now, let Dorothy Allison make a "men with boobs" comment and I would be up her ass so quick it wouldn't be funny. Maybe its because I expect more from her because she has already shown herself to be an elevated thinker.
Maybe its because I KNOW she identifies as a Femme.

More thinking on that one.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

Well all of that certainly got things going! And my goodnes folks are quick to jump on someone in here. But yes I do mean Portia and not Anne Heche. That's another whole crazy can of worms and not for here at all.
But in any case, the point is that sometimes I read that we want MSM role models and will take them in any way we can get them. I don't agree and prefer to think of regular femmes who live an out loud life on a daily basis as the heroines of this story. But then when we start to discuss one 'star' or another folks tend to throw in the 'who cares...I'd rather talk amongst ourselves'. And so would I but also in the context of the MSM because in many ways that defines us in spite of ourselves and what we say here. It's that deconstruction that interests me.

[

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

No queer police here, to the contrary actually. Sorry I don't get that benefit of the doubt here on this all-inclusive and welcoming/loving femme thread. And as to the MSM 'validating us' if either LS or SF would read my post instead of yelling a me you would see that I agree with you. What I was trying to say is that the MSM portrayals are what reinforces alot of 'the other' as we move out into the real world and interact with folks not on this site.

So if we disagree with you we are unwelcoming and yelling?

We have to agree with you to be welcoming?

I personally was offended when you jumped in out of no where saying that someone who has dated women for several years is straight.

Most of us have been called straight too because we don't look gay, or because someone wants our partners for themselves, can you see where it might be upsetting for you to use those same words, star or not? I bristle when someone suggests anyone queer is straight unless they have specific PROOF and even so, it is none of your or our business.

Have you been on the site before under a different name? You seem pretty opinionated about this and us.

[Pretty Woman]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

[



So if we disagree with you we are unwelcoming and yelling? Of course not, I welcome the conversation. That was about tone not content.
We have to agree with you to be welcoming? See above.
I personally was offended when you jumped in out of no where saying that someone who has dated women for several years is straight. Sorry to offend you. I am very leary of recently out women from personal history. So we will agree to disagree on that.
Most of us have been called straight too because we don't look gay, or because someone wants our partners for themselves, can you see where it might be upsetting for you to use those same words, star or not? I bristle when someone suggests anyone queer is straight unless they have specific PROOF and even so, it is none of your or our business. Again, this was in the context of an opinion that I shared on a website where all comments are welcome. And I have been an out femme now for some 30+ years so I get the history, risks, etc. But thanks for the reminder (re: lecture).
Have you been on the site before under a different name? You seem pretty opinionated about this and us.

On this site, just a few weeks. On the other site for awhile. But I didn't know that there was a training period here before folks are allowed to chime in. And honestly, I could say the same by the nature of your post and the inferences about me.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

On this site, just a few weeks. On the other site for awhile. But I didn't know that there was a training period here before folks are allowed to chime in. And honestly, I could say the same by the nature of your post and the inferences about me.

Hi PW,

There isn't a training period for anything, just like there is no way to say what makes someone gay or not make sense?

Can you share your Femme experience with us? please..

Thank you.

[Pretty Woman]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Hi PW,

There isn't a training period for anything, just like there is no way to say what makes someone gay or not make sense?

Can you share your Femme experience with us? please..

Thank you.

Thanks for the open door, Lady Snow. And yes what you say does make sense and I get the connection but I just happen not to be interested too much in supporting folks that are just coming out. We can discuss later if you'd like. I realize it's not a popular opinion here.
Not sure where to start to introduce my femmeness to the rest of you on this thread. Let's see. Out as a femme for about 3 decades (although I didn't have the language for it back then) starting in a small town in GA where there were lots of butches (on a military base) and not so many visible femmes. Moved to DC--NO FEMMES TO BE FOUND, and not so many butches either. Been in NYC for about 20 years and landed first at the Lesbian Herstory Archives where the founders--Joan Nestle and Deb Edel--really introduced me to BF herstory and I began to lean into my own femme identity.
My first BF sexual experience was with a butch who notched her belt on newly minted femmes, straight women exploring sexuality to be more to the point. At the time that worked for me too as I was interested in another butch but had no sexual experience and didn't want to try it out first with someone that I was way more than a little bit hot for. And, I had one relationship that ended when the butch figured hy was more attracted to elusive and challenging straight women than to femmes. Devestated at the time but in retrospect a great learning for me.
I look very straight on first glance, but as you wrote in an earlier post here, it doesn't take 5 minutes in a conversation to figure out that I'm femme. In some sense the fact that in my earlier life I 'could pass' helped me to come out. I was tired of the heteronormative assumptions by everyone, including a very dyke older boss at the time. I have a son who I raised alone (he's 33 now) and in addition to my appearance that sealed the straight assumption since it was long before butches and femmes had babies of their own accord.
I work in a field dominated by straight men and I know that I've fully swallowed my femme self because none of them try to hit on me anymore!
Enough rambling for now, but happy to say more as we get to know each other here.

[Nat]

I have been realizing today exactly how much I still defer internally to both masculinity and maleness. I then feel oppressed and resentful of both. I feel like if a guy or butch says something about how she/he/hy/etc would like for femmes or women to behave differently, I feel oppressed and resentful due specifically to the fact that I weigh their criticisms so heavily. And then, "quit criticizing femmes, quit oppressing femmes, you don't have the right to oppress us," is the loudest and clearest voice in my mind.

Because of this cacophony between my ears, I cannot tell how much of this is just inside me and how much is coming from without. It feels like it's from without, but the human brain is weird like that sometimes.

The issue is still with myself. If I could somehow treat all genders and levels of masculinity or femininity with equal respect rather than feeling compelled to defer and then resenting the power I myself have handed to both masculinity and maleness, then I would have so much more clarity and peace within myself as a femme, as a woman, as a member of this community and as a member of the human race.

It would feel so lovely if one day there were no part inside me that felt the compulsion to crawl just because some masculine or male person voiced a complaint or expectation. Then the choice would move more easily beyond compliance or defiance and into the realm of real respect and self-respect, real ability to hear and a real ability to respond to criticism, observations, complaints and requests from across the gender spectrum in a more reasoned and clear way.

The thing is - I do not know how to unlearn this. I dont know how to remove that compliance/defiance button inside myself. Does anybody else experience this? Has anybody else successfully purged this or unlearned it or patched in some neutralizing attitudes or in any other way moved beyond this? If so, how?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Nat

I have been realizing today exactly how much I still defer internally to both masculinity and maleness. I then feel oppressed and resentful of both. I feel like if a guy or butch says something about how she/he/hy/etc would like for femmes or women to behave differently, I feel oppressed and resentful due specifically to the fact that I weigh their criticisms so heavily. And then, "quit criticizing femmes, quit oppressing femmes, you don't have the right to oppress us," is the loudest and clearest voice in my mind.

Because of this cacophony between my ears, I cannot tell how much of this is just inside me and how much is coming from without. It feels like it's from without, but the human brain is weird like that sometimes.

The issue is still with myself. If I could somehow treat all genders and levels of masculinity or femininity with equal respect rather than feeling compelled to defer and then resenting the power I myself have handed to both masculinity and maleness, then I would have so much more clarity and peace within myself as a femme, as a woman, as a member of this community and as a member of the human race.

It would feel so lovely if one day there were no part inside me that felt the compulsion to crawl just because some masculine or male person voiced a complaint or expectation. Then the choice would move more easily beyond compliance or defiance and into the realm of real respect and self-respect, real ability to hear and a real ability to respond to criticism, observations, complaints and requests from across the gender spectrum in a more reasoned and clear way.

The thing is - I do not know how to unlearn this. I dont know how to remove that compliance/defiance button inside myself. Does anybody else experience this? Has anybody else successfully purged this or unlearned it or patched in some neutralizing attitudes or in any other way moved beyond this? If so, how?

very interesting post Nat! Do you mind explaining how you defer to men and maleness?

I kind of have the opposite thing going on, if a man or someone I perceive as male says something about how I should act I laugh, if a woman does I take it to heart way too much.

I wonder if maybe it's how we grew up? our childhoods? Maybe because my Mom died when I was so young, I yearn for female approval and am more freaked out when I don't get it?

[Apocalipstic]

As for passing as straight....

I have always, just once, wanted to get the nod from another queer person. You know, like Butches and women who "look" more stereotypically gay do.

Maybe at the reunion, we can give each other the nod?

[Nat]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

very interesting post Nat! Do you mind explaining how you defer to men and maleness?

I kind of have the opposite thing going on, if a man or someone I perceive as male says something about how I should act I laugh, if a woman does I take it to heart way too much.

I wonder if maybe it's how we grew up? our childhoods? Maybe because my Mom died when I was so young, I yearn for female approval and am more freaked out when I don't get it?

Thanks

The best approximation is that I give masculine and male voices more weight in my own mind than feminine and female voices - including my own. This is not intentional or even conscious. But in reaction to feedback from masculine or male voices, I have a sort of comply or defy reaction. Much of the time my reaction is defiance, as I do not want to comply or feel oppressed.

In the men with boobs thread, butch women were stating once again that they want their gender to be respected, and a few said femmes were often more likely to use an incorrect pronoun or indicate in other ways a lack of respect for butch women. What I heard was a demand for more deference than they already get from me. And I had a hard time with that because whether or not I show deference to butches, I give them more weight than I do other femme voices or even my own. So requests for more deference feel overwhelming and upsetting for me.

But after wrestling with it, reading reactions to the post where I voiced this as well as reactions to a few other frustrated femmes, it seems to me like I have been mishearing this whole time due to my own limitations. There is an ocean of difference between respect and deference, and I suspect giving respect would not wear a person out the way deference might. And if I am deferring to butch and male and masculine voices over femme voices, that sucks regarding my relationship to other femmes and women and with myself as well.

I would guess my upbringing and a good 32 years of life have gotten me here. I am not sure if laughing at what a guy says is not an act of defiance, but I can imagine losing your mother young and having been out longer may neutralize some of the stuff in the water.

Or it's also possible it's just a me thing.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Nat

I have been realizing today exactly how much I still defer internally to both masculinity and maleness. I then feel oppressed and resentful of both. I feel like if a guy or butch says something about how she/he/hy/etc would like for femmes or women to behave differently, I feel oppressed and resentful due specifically to the fact that I weigh their criticisms so heavily. And then, "quit criticizing femmes, quit oppressing femmes, you don't have the right to oppress us," is the loudest and clearest voice in my mind.

Because of this cacophony between my ears, I cannot tell how much of this is just inside me and how much is coming from without. It feels like it's from without, but the human brain is weird like that sometimes.

The issue is still with myself. If I could somehow treat all genders and levels of masculinity or femininity with equal respect rather than feeling compelled to defer and then resenting the power I myself have handed to both masculinity and maleness, then I would have so much more clarity and peace within myself as a femme, as a woman, as a member of this community and as a member of the human race.

It would feel so lovely if one day there were no part inside me that felt the compulsion to crawl just because some masculine or male person voiced a complaint or expectation. Then the choice would move more easily beyond compliance or defiance and into the realm of real respect and self-respect, real ability to hear and a real ability to respond to criticism, observations, complaints and requests from across the gender spectrum in a more reasoned and clear way.

The thing is - I do not know how to unlearn this. I dont know how to remove that compliance/defiance button inside myself. Does anybody else experience this? Has anybody else successfully purged this or unlearned it or patched in some neutralizing attitudes or in any other way moved beyond this? If so, how?

Hopefully not invading on femme space, but this was a beautiful post. Thank you.

[Martina]

i am kind of talked out on this subject. i have said it all before. i have enjoyed some of the posts a lot. i don't buy into the continuum idea. i am femme. End of that conversation.

Most of the talk about femme doesn't resonate for me. i don't think of it so much in terms of my femininity or even my relationship to butches.

i came out as femme about the same time i came out as kinky. And one of the things i had to defend was loving to get fucked and loving to get fucked by big mean butches. These days, that's everyday gender performance. A femme talking about loving to go down on her butch partner is more likely to evoke surprise. But back in the day, it was shocking.

i am femme because it's part of my history. i don't express it in everything that i do and in every way that i fuck. i don't exude femme. i don't represent femme. i don't define it or let it define me. i don't classify everything that i do in terms of gender expression. If i spread my legs wide, i may not be enacting my inner boy or expressing my inner whore. i may just be getting comfortable. If my bedroom is decorated with pink and yellow scarves and floral prints this year while last year it was all chrome and black and white photos, it may not mean anything more than i wanted some color.

i don't play with gender for pleasure although i have in the past. i am old and settled and comfortable. i like gender in me and in others. Absence of gender markers is not hot to me. But gender is not my major (or even minor) route of self-discovery.

In most ways, my gender expression has turned out to look a lot like my straight vanilla mother's did. So it clearly hasn't been that closely tied to my queerness or my kink.