A request

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by adorable

I think that if people stuck to speaking for themselves it would be fantastic.
What annoys me is that some people tend to want to speak for me too which I see as a tad misogynistic on their parts. Collectively no one should get to speak for ME as a BUTCH, as a WOMAN or as a FEMINIST. I have a say, I am here too. Your version is not the only version. Your way is not the ONLY way. So the collective "I have it all figured out and you don't sweetie" crowd should speak for themselves and let me speak for ME. No one holds the patent on what a butch woman is for the rest of the world or how all butch women feel or what every butch woman experiences.

I am tired of too of this sense that there is some sort of war going on between male and female IDs. Male IDs are NOT about sexism. It is NOT about superiority in butchiness. It IS about how people are born and how they FEEL inside.

Well the more people who speak up about butch women, women and feminism the better. Different perspectives are good.

[Jett]

Previous post deleted because I'm not going to tip-toe around that someone might assume you're speaking for/about them.

There's a need for butch women (women) to speak about their issues, and w/o having to qualify that not all females are women when saying "butch woman". If just saying "butch woman" with out all the "and/or but not them" is making peeps think all females are women seems the problem there is with the ass-u-me (r).

On the other site I'd bet I've probably said "female ID and/or butch women" more than anyone else... seriously. BUT I wasn't separating sex and gender actually but speaking in ID terms, in that I was saying I'm speaking generally about or to female ID butches and butch women ID's both.

Martina, agreed on the lesbian thing. The one single post I ever reported on the other site was blatant lesbian bashing... not a damn thing was done. It is better here but I look forward to the day when it's as un-PC to bash lesbians etc. as it is other groups in this community.

Better yet, when peeps just grasp mentally it's not ok to bash or discriminate against peeps based of their sexual orientation.

Yep more irony,

Metropolis

[BullDog]

For most butch women our biological sex is female. To me it is what it is, it's biology. If there are females who don't feel they are women, isn't it up to them to speak up as to how they feel about themselves and their gender if they want us to understand instead of being afraid people are going to mistake them for a woman because there are butch women speaking up? That feels very anti-woman to me.

I don't really know what any particular individual means when they are say they are female bodied but not woman. It's up to them to let us know what they mean by that if they want to be understood.

I think I used to use the phrase female/woman identified in a similar way that Metro says. I just don't find it useful anymore because it leaves people out and also may assume more commonalities than are actually there.

[Outlaw]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I don't really know what any particular individual means when they are say they are female bodied but not woman. It's up to them to let us know what they mean by that if they want to be understood.

I believe, without regard to how I choose to identify, that it's my obligation to seek information and ask questions about what I don't understand. I also believe that it's my responsibility to foster an environment where if one chooses, those (from their me place) answers, can be heard.

Does this make any sense?

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Outlaw

I believe, without regard to how I choose to identify, that it's my obligation to seek information and ask questions about what I don't understand. I also believe that it's my responsibility to foster an environment where if one chooses, those (from their me place) answers, can be heard.

Does this make any sense?

This post deserves repeating


Dylan

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Previous post deleted because I'm not going to tip-toe around that someone might assume you're speaking for/about them.

There's a need for butch women (women) to speak about their issues, and w/o having to qualify that not all females are women when saying "butch woman". If just saying "butch woman" with out all the "and/or but not them" is making peeps think all females are women seems the problem there is with the ass-u-me (r).

On the other site I'd bet I've probably said "female ID and/or butch women" more than anyone else... seriously. BUT I wasn't separating sex and gender actually but speaking in ID terms, in that I was saying I'm speaking generally about or to female ID butches and butch women ID's both.

Martina, agreed on the lesbian thing. The one single post I ever reported on the other site was blatant lesbian bashing... not a damn thing was done. It is better here but I look forward to the day when it's as un-PC to bash lesbians etc. as it is other groups in this community.

Better yet, when peeps just grasp mentally it's not ok to bash or discriminate against peeps based of their sexual orientation.

Yep more irony,

Metropolis

No, it isn't....

[Nat]

Is there Lesbian-bashing going on somewhere?

[JustBeingMe]

There is so much more I want to say, but I really need to think more about how to say it. I agree with those here that are speaking up as butch women, and a few others on this thread about how things go down in threads. Yes, I have seen the bashing going on about Lesbians, it's just pure hatred if you ask me. No one should have to endure that kinda crap from within the community, no matter who they are, what they are, blah blah blah, etc etc etc. I'll post more as my thoughts are better gathered.

[Heart]

Maybe Jessica Pettitt says it best:

"The very notion of out butching one another and competing for masculine validation intersects with complicated relationships, sex roles, friendships, and internalized sexism in a way that must be addressed directly. Lets put our fists down, and look eye to eye to those we are separating ourselves from so that we can collaborate in our fight for justice."

(From the blurb about her keynote at the Butch Voices regional conference in Dallas.)

[Beau]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I just don't see our ever transcending gender divisions until, or unless we stop our own oppressive attitudes towards women. ... Woman is not a dirty word and it is not the problem between and among us all. Sexism and the continuation of male as superior is

Yes, I agree; that's the problem. Hopefully, this discussion will create a lasting solution for the tone and interactions on this site.

Originally Posted by BullDog

I don't know why people would worry about what they are not instead of what they are.

On a related note, every time someone mentions the word lesbian I just set my egg timer and just wait for people to come racing in to announce "I am not a lesbian." Lesbian isn't a dirty word either.

I use butch and woman together a lot, not just because that is how I id but because the way butch women are treated is a symptom of a larger problem- sexism and misogyny. And yes there are feminist transmen and male identified butches. They are not bothered by butch women speaking up. It doesn't threaten them in the slightest.

Bully, I think you articulate succinctly why as butch women this discussion is necessary. Also, for those of us who do identify as lesbians, it's amazing to see that at times within this community that word might as well be leprosy. I find that incredibly sad, and I don't understand it. at. all. And yeah, I find it homophobic, which is incredibly ironic. (to paraphrase Met)

Originally Posted by rlin

I, personally, had to smile when i read the OPs statement. I tend to be overwhelmed by how much male/man is celebrated in a site that is named after something that is traditionally a lesbian group.

Yes, the irony is thick.

Originally Posted by BullDog

Well the more people who speak up about butch women, women and feminism the better. Different perspectives are good.

Absofuckinglutely.

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Isn't this the truth! NEWS FLASH - Not all lesbians are anti- B-F, queer, Trans/Ig, and it is not the 1970's any longer!! I'm a lesbian and a butch! Also, coalition building across diverse communities helps banish stereotypes and transmits education about our community that is much needed. Isolationism simply floats a larger leper island, so to speak.

I understand (and have experienced) some of the crap that some lesbians spew about the B-F community. However, just as we as individuals fall into every form of unique here, so do lesbians.

I don't choose to be a victim of negative transgressions, or even a survivor. I want to be an advocate and an educator.

Your perspective and gentle treatment of all issues surrounding this subject makes you just that -- an advocate and an educator. It's greatly appreciated, AtLast.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

There's a need for butch women (women) to speak about their issues, and w/o having to qualify that not all females are women when saying "butch woman". If just saying "butch woman" with out all the "and/or but not them" is making peeps think all females are women seems the problem there is with the ass-u-me (r). ... Better yet, when peeps just grasp mentally it's not ok to bash or discriminate against peeps based of their sexual orientation.

Yep more irony, Metropolis

Well, Met, I hope that by pointing it out, some who refuse to see it or simply can't see it will finally understand that discrimination within our community only feeds the discrimination in the larger society we inhabit. And that's why it's so important that we seek a way past this narrow mindset concerning ourselves.

Originally Posted by BullDog

For most butch women our biological sex is female. To me it is what it is, it's biology. If there are females who don't feel they are women, isn't it up to them to speak up as to how they feel about themselves and their gender if they want us to understand instead of being afraid people are going to mistake them for a woman because there are butch women speaking up? That feels very anti-woman to me.

I don't really know what any particular individual means when they are say they are female bodied but not woman. It's up to them to let us know what they mean by that if they want to be understood.

Bully -- I so hope they do. I'd truly like to understand this better for myself. I realize that this is in part the rationale behind Dapper's opening post, and I'd just like to know what's behind that feeling. Not so I can respect Dapper's identity -- because I believe I already do --- but because I'd like to truly understand it in a way that I don't currently. And, I hope all butches who feel this way will speak up to help me understand.

Originally Posted by Heart

Maybe Jessica Pettitt says it best:

"The very notion of out butching one another and competing for masculine validation intersects with complicated relationships, sex roles, friendships, and internalized sexism in a way that must be addressed directly. Lets put our fists down, and look eye to eye to those we are separating ourselves from so that we can collaborate in our fight for justice."

Thanks for posting this, Heart. It goes to the heart of the matter.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Heart

Maybe Jessica Pettitt says it best:

"The very notion of out butching one another and competing for masculine validation intersects with complicated relationships, sex roles, friendships, and internalized sexism in a way that must be addressed directly. Lets put our fists down, and look eye to eye to those we are separating ourselves from so that we can collaborate in our fight for justice."

(From the blurb about her keynote at the Butch Voices regional conference in Dallas.)

Damn, I wish I could attend! I believe that the honest and real conversations were begun at the Oakland 09' conference. Not without pain, but with the willingness to break through the BS and stop hiding from one another. Collaboration is the operative term, for sure and the key to forming effective coalitions.

Had to edit to add- when will the members that most of this conversation needs to be with, join in? I always feel like we end up preaching to the choir.... and the choir is representative of various identifications.