A request

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Dylan
I too have been wondering how a thread about butches who consider their own gender something Other

Has turned into A) a dis on women

And B) A celebration of women

If One ID's as woman...fanfuckingtastic

If One doesn't, that person should also be given space without it becoming some sort of affront

For fuck's sake, just because One does NOT ID as women, it doesn't mean there are BAAAAAAAADDDDDDDDDDD, sexist reasons for that

And it doesn't mean that person needs a schooling in 2nd wave feminist thought

There's more types of feminism

There's more ways to be queer

And there's more ways to ID than woman


Christ On A Crutch That People Who Think They're So Fucking Amazing And Brilliant When It Comes To Gender Can't Fucking Accept Anyone Else's ID Without Considering A Dis To Their Own,
Dylan



Dylan,

Thank you for providing us with a perfect example of what women/lesbians have been referring to in this thread.

You want us to accept and respect all the differences that make up our community. But when women/lesbians stand up for themselves (guess what, we matter too) you respond with the most dismissive, rude, crude, profane filled, disrespectful, sexist, tirade I have heard in decades.

But I am supposed to respect you? Even tho you don’t respect me or treat me or speak to me in a respectful manner?

Hate to tell you this honey but it’s a 2 way street. And I am not one of those women/lesbians who is intimidated by sexist rhetoric suitable for the 1960’s.

Your post was rude and offensive. And I think you owe some people an apology.

[adorable]

I too would like to thank Dylan, although I fail to see the "rude, crude...disrespectful, sexist tirade" that some seem to be referring too. Maybe Dylan just needs to feel the same way on the insides as everyone thinks he should and then the world would be at peace and Mother Earth would continue to spin? Hurry up Dylan! I've heard that if the world stops spinning that the gravitational pull stops too and we will all just be floating around. I can't get dressed without gravitational pull and I have to go to work!

And I would like to apologize to the OP for daring to say that Butch can stand alone for some because well - we are all women right? Wait? We're not all women? Some are born into the wrong bodies? WTF? <---which stands for WHAT THE FUCK - and yes, I fully admit that I'm rather crude at times. Just so I can understand... not everyone feels like *woman* is their gender? For some people they really do feel like they have another gender? And this has absolutely no bearing on anyone else's gender or how they view themselves? But it IS a choice right? I mean, just like being a queer or a dyke, or big old flaming homo is? Because I've heard that. Why on earth would anyone chose to be a man or just a butch or justananything but a female ID'd woman when clearly that is the better choice? Wow that IS strange, unless I am completely misunderstanding and it's not a choice? If it's not a choice but they still want to not be women we don't have to talk to them right? Because society I've heard tends to see us all the same, except those lucky enough to pass as men who then get all the privilege, well until someone finds out the truth about where they came from or maybe not? Shouldn't the people who don't feel like a woman inside just shut up so that women can have their women only space? Their one little corner of paradise with all that yucky maleness or brazen masculinity? Oh, wait that is ok as long as they are thrilled about being born as a woman and their personal herstory?? Maybe as a historian I have a poor take on current events but I swear that lots of people feel the same way about other minority groups as well? Even me? Well of course not me? Ha! Lots of people know me and I don't look gay, so I'm ok right? RIGHT? Wait, I'm not? If they find out I'm queer I'm just as fucked as everyone else who is also queer? So can I still march with everyone else because of the whole strength in numbers thing or is that a bad idea? Well, we all know that those gender choosing not to be women don't ID as queer or even butch or fags or gay...wait..wait some do? Seriously? What's next chocolate pop rocks? O-M-F-G they have those too? Pop rocks are the shiznit. So if non-women who were born female can't be who they are in here and I want to fuck one/partner with one/go to Red Lobster (not that I do of course because this is hypothetical and I wouldn't want my queer card pulled), do I need to go into a dark back alley? Does anyone know where this dark alley is? NOT that I am going there...I am NOT. That would be silly, since they have no business dating among us, outside the purity of all things butch femme, which we have defined right?

Sorry, I'm not sure how long one has to go on in a post before it becomes a tirade... Can I get a letter count?

[Liam]

I find it fascinating that a very polite request to be acknowledged—to be seen and heard, by a member of this online community, has been dismissed repeatedly, and their vulnerability has been met with arrogance displayed in a very cavalier manner. I dare say, that if the roles were reversed, there would be a call for all all non-woman members, to be burned at the stake.

It baffles me why there is so much animosity toward those who are not women on this site—it is not a woman only space. We could be strong allies, yet there are those, who repeatedly choose to create a line, and perpetuate this us against them mentality.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Liam

I find it fascinating that a very polite request to be acknowledged—to be seen and heard, by a member of this online community, has been dismissed repeatedly, and their vulnerability has been met with arrogance displayed in a very cavalier manner. I dare say, that if the roles were reversed, there would be a call for all all non-woman members, to be burned at the stake.

It baffles me why there is so much animosity toward those who are not women on this site—it is not a woman only space. We could be strong allies, yet there are those, who repeatedly choose to create a line, and perpetuate this us against them mentality.

How about now Dylan is the great divider and has an agenda?

It's disgusting to watch the constant attacking towards one another over one's own personal gender choice

Diversity?

Where??

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

It's disgusting to watch the constant attacking towards one another over one's own personal gender choice

Diversity?

Where??

Thank you Lady Snow.

I came into this thread and asked a question oh way back at the beginning....got a nice pm from the OP, and an actual illuminating response from Bit (thank you ....again ), but my honest, "please educate me because I'm new here" question got completely ignored. Instead it sounds like more and more of an old fight.

Honestly, I'm disappointed.

I hear less drama about all this "how do you ID" from my own mother these days (which is saying something...let me tell you...for her to accept that I have a butch partner is probably a sign of the next coming....but anyway....)

At the risk of sounding like I'm asking us all to stand in a circle and sing....I have to say that I'm frustrated. I'm still very new to this community, and I was thrilled to find everyone here....he/she/hy/ze...the ftm and mtf...the daddis and girls...the leather/bdsm (k...I don't read those threads cuz I scare easy, but hey...I'm glad you're here).

I appreciate the diversity here. I don't need to agree with everyone. I don't even need to understand everyone. I just don't understand why we want to spend so much of our time trying to verbally beat the crap out of each other when we have bigger fish to fry.

K...I'm done.

[Chancie]

I've started to post to this thread several times and deleted my post.

In general, like a family or a polyamorous relationship, there is a history of how members here respond and react to each other. In some cases, that history is close to ten years old.

This thread was started by someone who wanted to say I'm here, I'm not a woman, Get used to it.

If your agenda is different, start a different thread.

If you are feeling ignored, start a new thread.

How does that cliche go?

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

[Jett]

I read back through this thread and didn't see anywhere even one person say:

...there's only one way to ID as butch

...that there's only one way to be queer

...that any persons ID is wrong

...that any ID is better

...that anyone even took anothers ID as a dis to there own

...anyone accused of taking up too much space

...that butch can't stand alone

...anyone doesn't belong here

I haven't even seen any general animosity toward any other ID from any ID... OP or posters and I question seriously why anyone would want to make it look like that considering we're trying to foster community for everyone here right? Or are we trying to perpetuate some divide?

What I have seen is Dapper's post about and request that female ID being mixed up with women ID in discussion and that it makes hym uncomfortable even though hy ID's as neither. I think there was a misunderstanding that Dapper was requesting only women ID butches were responsible and should work on it.

Somewhere midway through Dapper said : "I can see how my post may have appeared to be directed towards butch women. It was directed towards everyone for their thoughts."

By this time per usual because of the misunderstanding the thread was slightly derailed, I say slightly because the topic was about female and butch women being used interchangably and those ID's and related were still being spoken about.

That said... I wish that in the interest of the whole community we would read the threads before we jump in and make huge generalized sweeping negative comments about entire groups, ID's sexes or genders and then paint them as thee ones dissing, divisive or downgrading any other IDs. This is how shit gets stirred not how stuff gets fixed or threads get back on track for the OP.

Instead of really heating things up with "look! They're the one's creating all the divisiveness! Listen to what I'm going to say they did!"... how about quoting individuals? How about addressing the actual posters who offended and dealing with that person individually... unless of course we're trying actually to paint or make a statement about ALL people in that group... to which that'd be the true singling out and painting of an entire identity, sex or gender for what-ever motive.

We ALL have a right to speak up, butch women in this thread have a right to speak up here when spoken about, trans people have a right to speak up for themselves, butches have the right, femmes so on and so on... it's NOT an affront to other IDs when people do speak about themselves especially when spoken to or about in the OP.

That's one thing I definately agree we need to get the hell past...

[betenoire]

Thank you, Chancie.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

How about now Dylan is the great divider and has an agenda?

It's disgusting to watch the constant attacking towards one another over one's own personal gender choice

Diversity?

Where??

What kills me is that anyone felt the need to defend themselves against somebody's personal id and request for respect. Defend against what?

[TenderKnight]

A couple more cents to add, mostly along the lines of the default to "he" when it comes to butch/femme online interaction..

I know that when I first started this trek on the b/f interwebs, "He" was my way to get in my head, ok, this is a butch instead of a femme.. It is the visual image of a person with male or mascaline engery. I didn't feel that it was anti anything.. I didn't think it could hurt anyone.. Besides, everyone was doing it.. lol

Now, I get to grow a little, stretch my brain muscle and relearn and rethink this binary way of seeing this community.. It is very diverse, but sadly, as been stated more then once, everyone gets really touch about ID's.. If you start to call me girl or she, yeah, I'd think you were an ass, because it is plainly stated about how I ID.. *shrugs*

Just some of my thoughts and experience while interacting on this and other forums.

In Light,
Tony

[The_Lady_Snow]

Since I am the one who pointed out the whole accusatory agenda thing towards Dylan...

I Snow (this is Snow coming from Snow space and what Snow is feeling) feel this has gotten ridiculous sometimes, notice I said sometimes not ALL the time. I get that Dapper started a space for butches, I did not *ass-u-me* it was for one type of butch or one particular butch gender, care to know why? I don't lump butches into one gender or one pronoun.

Years and years of being on these sites has taught me to look to see what butches, or femmes prefer to be addressed as, and now low and behold there is a place to the left that pretty much tells it all.. I also have learned that even if I make a mistake someone will be kind enough and correct it and I will have the courtesy to remember that.

So yes to me (once again me space) it seems like just A lot of mud slinging is A happening....

I could just be over sensitive right now I am not feeling my best....


Edited to add:

Nope I am not over sensitive

I just need to bounce out of this convo too it's just to fucking crayzee and I promised June to be good while she vacationed..

Peace out Peeps and GOOD LUCK!

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Linus

I don't think Dapper was speaking to butch women only but rather to the community at large. (I could be wrong but that was how I understood the thread since it's under the general Gender, Labels, Identities forum rather than The Butch Zone).

I almost equate this to "I recognize others but I don't want to be lost in the shuffle either please". I don't think it's wrong for someone to want to stand up and let their voice be heard as is; that it is neither wrong or right but the way they are, the way we all are, the diverseness of "we" make our community that much more greater.

Linus, you are exactly right. That is what I was exactly trying to do in that first post. Not let an identity get lost in the shuffle.

And that was the reason why I wanted it in the Gender, Labels, Identities section....b/c I wanted everyone to read it and wanted to make sure it was in a section everyone would feel comfortable responding in...b/c it was written for everyone. It is why I requested in my second post that it be moved there.

I also stated this directly when BullDog said that it appeared to be directed at butch women, specifically.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

.....What I have seen is Dapper's post about and request that female ID being mixed up with women ID in discussion and that it makes hym uncomfortable even though hy ID's as neither. I think there was a misunderstanding that Dapper was requesting only women ID butches were responsible and should work on it.

Somewhere midway through Dapper said : "I can see how my post may have appeared to be directed towards butch women. It was directed towards everyone for their thoughts."

By this time per usual because of the misunderstanding the thread was slightly derailed, I say slightly because the topic was about female and butch women being used interchangably and those ID's and related were still being spoken about....

Actually, Met, that is not the way I see it to have gone down. I believe that the derail happened after I clarified (on page one). I think that is pretty obvious if you look back in the thread.

BullDog...you have said a heck of a lot as to how you view me/my post/what you thought I was saying....fortunately, for me the thread is short enough that people will easily be able to see how you strangely went from "Dapper, I think I understand a little bit more of what you were saying based on your response to Nat." (post #17), which essentially came with a cyber handshake, to strangely seeing things in a completely different way later on.

Side note: I really appreciate all those who spoke out and indicated that they understood what it was I was trying to say. I was completely floored by the negative responses I got as I expected that at most my entire post would get a nod, as the whole post was meant to be nothing more than a simple reminder as to something many people have said many times. I had NO idea it would spark such controversy. If I had ANY sense of that possibility, I never would have posted.

Last night I believed that nothing I posted in response would be heard by the posters who misunderstood what I was saying. I worried that I would be misinterpreted and that others would perceive me as being <a lot of the things that Dylan said>, no matter what I said. So, I posted nothing....I felt very silenced. I don't now....thanks.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Linus, you are exactly right. That is what I was exactly trying to do in that first post. Not let an identity get lost in the shuffle.

And that was the reason why I wanted it in the Gender, Labels, Identities section....b/c I wanted everyone to read it and wanted to make sure it was in a section everyone would feel comfortable responding in...b/c it was written for everyone. It is why I requested in my second post that it be moved there.

I also stated this directly when BullDog said that it appeared to be directed at butch women, specifically.




Actually, Met, that is not the way I see it to have gone down. I believe that the derail happened after I clarified (on page one). I think that is pretty obvious if you look back in the thread.

BullDog...you have said a heck of a lot as to how you view me/my post/what you thought I was saying....fortunately, for me the thread is short enough that people will easily be able to see how you strangely went from "Dapper, I think I understand a little bit more of what you were saying based on your response to Nat." (post #17), which essentially came with a cyber handshake, to strangely seeing things in a completely different way later on.

Side note: I really appreciate all those who spoke out and indicated that they understood what it was I was trying to say. I was completely floored by the negative responses I got as I expected that at most my entire post would get a nod, as the whole post was meant to be nothing more than a simple reminder as to something many people have said many times. I had NO idea it would spark such controversy. If I had ANY sense of that possibility, I never would have posted.

Last night I believed that nothing I posted in response would be heard by the posters who misunderstood what I was saying. I worried that I would be misinterpreted and that others would perceive me as being <a lot of the things that Dylan said>, no matter what I said. So, I posted nothing....I felt very silenced. I don't now....thanks.

I am responding to the paragraph which is bold: Dapper I am glad that you no longer feel silenced.