Gender Wars - A Femme's Perspective

[apretty]

my responses in green:

Originally Posted by Medusa

* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

i don't feel animosity--i do feel protective of female-identified butches because keeping the *she* in this world has become a subversive act, and i think that's super ballsy.

and i'm suspect of the multitudes of young butches that see transitioning as the answer.


and i feel that male-identified/presenting peoples are privileged and i would love if that were acknowledged more often.

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

i'm not at war with anyone but i don't get stonefemme as a 'gender' nor do i get the trans-sensual femme type person. (--i've dated trans-people, it didn't make me trans-sensual and i've dated stonebutches, again--it didn't make me stonefemme...) but, people can be/ do what they want.

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

i probably could read closer and come to a conclusion about that--but i think we've all got our agendas and some people are louder than others.

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

again, i don't see a war. i see that society positions women against each other and so unless you've done some work in this area and continue to work pretty hard at not being suspicious of your sisters, you're going to be a product of our society (which sucks, but it is what it is).

* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

yes. the femme that wants a hetero-normative dynamic is going to subtly (or not) encourage her partner to transition.

and there's blanket statements about 'all butches' and examples on this site of femmes he-ing butches, regardless of whether they're HE.

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?

feminine

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

i think there's lots of conversations to be had. some small, some big and really i don't know why anyone has to be so *fatalistic* about a bunch of people having a discussion on gender.

perhaps i'm not getting the war-stuff, but in the end i believe we all know that there's power/strength and safety in numbers--and despite how dreadfully annoying i might find a person's communication style, it behooves us to get along.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by apretty

:i don't feel animosity--i do feel protective of female-identified butches because keeping the *she* in this world has become a subversive act, and i think that's super ballsy

YES! I swear not even 2 days ago I looked at Jackhammer in the middle of a conversation about identities and said that claiming the "she" that I am and that she is in our own separate ways is fucking subversive. (and that's hot)
I see some parallels about it having been a subversive act on the dash site to demand and claim female when things were particularly hostile toward "all things female" there.(my read)

Originally Posted by apretty

:and i'm suspect of the multitudes of young butches that see transitioning as the answer.
and i feel that male-identified/presenting peoples are privileged and i would love if that were acknowledged more often.
.

I'm crazy glad you brought this up. I feel like it's a touchy subject about the movement of more young butches toward a Trans identity because I do see layers of "the answer to my "I dont feel ok" problem within that youth community sometimes. And no, it's not really about ageism for me - It is about the youth of anyone's gender identity and how I relate it to what I see as an evolution process for all of us.
Sometimes I have wondered if it is about internal misogyny, about power dynamics, about wanting to gain privilege, about the subversive and intentional "othering" of the self that says "SEEE! SEEEEEE! I really AM a unique and special butterfly!!"
I also recognize that I don't have the right to question any individual's journey to themself, even if it doesn't make sense to me. I would like to understand it though and I hope I get to ask (respectful) questions to make that happen.

Originally Posted by apretty

:again, i don't see a war. i see that society positions women against each other and so unless you've done some work in this area and continue to work pretty hard at not being suspicious of your sisters, you're going to be a product of our society (which sucks, but it is what it is).
.

Word. I think this is what Heart has touched on all over the place (not said in a snarky way, but a way that says I recognize she has been advocating for this vehemently and with utter commendable conviction).
I see misogyny dictating that not only are women "less than" men, but that women also must be "less than" each other. Because that whole construct of "You must be this type of woman with x, y, and z characteristics to be considered valid, desireable, acceptable, and any other number of "unattainable" virtues" is at work *within* our own female communities. Hello? Look at the fractioning with the female/male identities in the Butch communities and the "Diamond-encrusted best-Femme-in-the-Universe EWWWWWWWwouldnevereatpussybecauseitsickybutpleaseo penmydoorbecauseImahelplesswiddlekitten" shit that tries to play out in the Femme community.
That shit is not just about people trying to "gender top" one another. It's the ingrained messages that the world feeds us from DAY ONE about who we are supposed to be and how we are supposed to get there.
I'm guilty as FUCK of buying into it in my lifetime - being the "mean girl" who had to automatically hate all amazing women because I wasn't as "insert whatever" as them. Those messages and my own inability to look inward at WHY and question if any of that shit was real ROBBED me of many possibly good friendships with other women because I was too busy being jealous, suspecting them of wanting to fuck my girlfriend, competing, and feeling insecure in the glow of their amazingness. I felt incredibly empowered the minute I said, "No More" to myself and it changed my world for the better.
I'm a better friend because of that, a better partner, and a happier person because I examined and questioned and evolved and am still willing to do more to shed that fucking nasty ass snakeskin of bullshit that the world throws on us the minute we are born if it means I get to have more Junes and Arwens and Divas and Michelleys and Snows and Adeles and Prettys and NJFemmes and Nats and Betes and Irishes in my life.

Originally Posted by apretty

erhaps i'm not getting the war-stuff, but in the end i believe we all know that there's power/strength and safety in numbers--and despite how dreadfully annoying i might find a person's communication style, it behooves us to get along.
.

You just nailed the crux of what has been on my mind for the last few days. I have become painfully irritated with some of the squealing "Me-ism" that I have seen in parts of this site but I do examine that as a personal communication style that bothers me no matter what the person might be talking about. That's a personal filter for me, doesn't mean that what the person is saying isn't valid...it just means I have to work a little harder to hear them through the noise that is bothering me.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Medusa

YES! I swear not even 2 days ago I looked at Jackhammer in the middle of a conversation about identities and said that claiming the "she" that I am and that she is in our own separate ways is fucking subversive. (and that's hot)
I see some parallels about it having been a subversive act on the dash site to demand and claim female when things were particularly hostile toward "all things female" there.(my read)

isn't it funny that claiming female (and *She*) has become a subversive act?


we're also having these conversations at home, E doesn't get the historical context/background of the *dash* site where SHE = glittery prom dress and HE = could only mean man *and* butch (spit/grunt). and in my FEMME head (like most of us), SHE means all sorts of things (including big papa and my mean old man).


E asked me why everyone (specifically ME) doesn't just leave that 'shit over there'? and i have to admit, it occurs to me that i've been reading/posting/participating *here* from a skeptical/protective (anti-dash?) place--not wanting the *SHE* to become once again marginalized. and in doing so, i've just assumed that the male-folk are comfortable/welcome and taking up space (because of my prior experience: "that's what males do").


frankly, that's not fair of me. new site! and though many of the same people are here, we're collectively older and wiser.


and i've *done* all of the stuff that now makes me cringe: assigning gender, HE-ing all butches, yes! i've done it and it's utter shit and i'm *glad* that i now know better--the world is so much cooler when it's not cleaved in *two*

Originally Posted by Medusa

I'm crazy glad you brought this up. I feel like it's a touchy subject about the movement of more young butches toward a Trans identity because I do see layers of "the answer to my "I dont feel ok" problem within that youth community sometimes. And no, it's not really about ageism for me - It is about the youth of anyone's gender identity and how I relate it to what I see as an evolution process for all of us.
Sometimes I have wondered if it is about internal misogyny, about power dynamics, about wanting to gain privilege, about the subversive and intentional "othering" of the self that says "SEEE! SEEEEEE! I really AM a unique and special butterfly!!"
I also recognize that I don't have the right to question any individual's journey to themself, even if it doesn't make sense to me. I would like to understand it though and I hope I get to ask (respectful) questions to make that happen.

it's a hugely sensitive subject! and to say, hey something's not right here and still be an ally: i struggle with balancing the two, still.


i'm well aware of what it is to be partnered to someone exploring their gender and needing to take the steps to correct the gender that they present to the outside world and i've been in the position to be the support and be the advocate for those guys.


so, as difficult as it is for me to say, i do see that *other* stuff goes into transitioning from FTM like internalized homophobia, discomfort or a *lack* of butch community, the faux butch-continuum (she = feminine female and butch-EST = TRANSmale), etc.


and of course this isn't true for even a majority of trans people--but for the butches that see transitioning as a means of dodging the lesbo-bullet i just wanna say: the simple fact is, everyone struggles with being female in this society and you can be female bodied and way more of a MAN than the manliest man out there if you so choose, by virtue of your existence.

Originally Posted by Medusa

Word. I think this is what Heart has touched on all over the place (not said in a snarky way, but a way that says I recognize she has been advocating for this vehemently and with utter commendable conviction).
I see misogyny dictating that not only are women "less than" men, but that women also must be "less than" each other. Because that whole construct of "You must be this type of woman with x, y, and z characteristics to be considered valid, desireable, acceptable, and any other number of "unattainable" virtues" is at work *within* our own female communities. Hello? Look at the fractioning with the female/male identities in the Butch communities and the "Diamond-encrusted best-Femme-in-the-Universe EWWWWWWWwouldnevereatpussybecauseitsickybutpleaseo penmydoorbecauseImahelplesswiddlekitten" shit that tries to play out in the Femme community.
That shit is not just about people trying to "gender top" one another. It's the ingrained messages that the world feeds us from DAY ONE about who we are supposed to be and how we are supposed to get there.

a femme subjugating herself is sooooo unattractive!


and it breaks my heart a little because i hold *femme* as precious and unsullied by that patriarchal/hetero/misog bullshit--but the simple fact is, of *course* we're a product of our environment and its messages and while we're not all there, i believe we can all *get there*.


**and a public thank you to Heart for her conviction!!