Ask a trans person!

[BullDog]

Kobi, I really hope you are just speaking for yourself because there are plenty of lesbians that don't share your views, and there are lesbians who do date trans men and they still identify as lesbians.

[Gemme]

Word, Bully.

[AmazonDC]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Kobi, I really hope you are just speaking for yourself because there are plenty of lesbians that don't share your views, and there are lesbians who do date trans men and they still identify as lesbians.

AGREED!!!! Couldnt have said it better Myself...

[Kobi]

If who you sleep with does not define who and what you are, then you are negating the very essence of not only lesbianism but of homosexuality itself. And you are also negating the concept of sexual orientation.

That is some major homophobia rearing its ugly head.

The fact that people do not find this disturbing on a queer site is mind boggling.

[AmazonDC]

Originally Posted by Kobi

If who you sleep with does not define who and what you are, then you are negating the very essence of not only lesbianism but of homosexuality itself. And you are also negating the concept of sexual orientation.

That is some major homophobia rearing its ugly head.

The fact that people do not find this disturbing on a queer site is mind boggling.

I have found that lesbians are the most judgmental in accepting of all lgbtq... so you are saying in your eyes ftm and people Like Me Queer Middle sexed people should not be here??? That's the very definition of homophobia... and non acceptance of every flavor of Our big rainbow... Not every lesbian is just a simple butch or femme... there are many spectrums... the lesbian community lacks acceptance of things other than the cookie cutter "lesbian "... makes Me very sad

[kittygrrl]

Originally Posted by DaddyChrisCo

I have found that lesbians are the most judgmental in accepting of all lgbtq... so you are saying in your eyes ftm and people Like Me Queer Middle sexed people should not be here??? That's the very definition of homophobia... and non acceptance of every flavor of Our big rainbow... Not every lesbian is just a simple butch or femme... there are many spectrums... the lesbian community lacks acceptance of things other than the cookie cutter "lesbian "... makes Me very sad

I agree...I find the "We must adhere and keep to lesbian ideas of purity" to be repugnant since I did not fit into what they considered "lesbian" when I first came out. I was shunned within the lesbian community because I did not "fit" their ideas about what being lesbian was. Seriously, fuck those kinds of social constructs.

[AmazonDC]

Originally Posted by kittygrrl

I agree...I find the "We must adhere and keep to lesbian ideas of purity" to be repugnant since I did not fit into what they considered "lesbian" when I first came out. I was shunned within the lesbian community because I did not "fit" their ideas about what being lesbian was. Seriously, fuck those kinds of social constructs.

Glad so me one else gets it... I was born different and I wont let anyone define who or what I am.. people need to band together not drawn lines in the sand... if the l gbtq community dont support each other then We will continue to struggle to be equal in the eyes of the world and with each other

[BullDog]

Kobi, I find your transphobia mind boggling.

First of all, how is your life, identity, sexuality, sexual orientation, gender identity or anything else defined by someone else's dating choices?

Another lesbian's dating life doesn't define me or anyone else.

And who you date does not define who you are either. If I ended up dating someone who didn't id as femme that wouldn't mean I wasn't butch all of a sudden.

A lesbian can date another lesbian, another woman who doesn't id as lesbian, someone gender queer, a trans man, a cis man, etc. She may very still see herself as a lesbian because that is how she has id'd for a long time and it didn't suddenly change just because she is dating someone of a different id than she did before.

Being a lesbian is not just about who you sleep with. There are community and social ties, your own personal history, your own sense of how you identify and a whole host of other factors that go into it.

You only get to define lesbian for you Kobi.

[JDeere]

Originally Posted by Kobi

If who you sleep with does not define who and what you are, then you are negating the very essence of not only lesbianism but of homosexuality itself. And you are also negating the concept of sexual orientation.

That is some major homophobia rearing its ugly head.

The fact that people do not find this disturbing on a queer site is mind boggling.

I'm asking for myself, not anyone else. Do you see or define lesbian as 2 cis gendered women in an adult relationship?

[hopelessromantic69]

Originally Posted by JDeere

I'm asking for myself, not anyone else. Do you see or define lesbian as 2 cis gendered women in an adult relationship?

In my opinion no one has the right to define anyone's relationship. I'm not sure why people think they are so important that they can impose their opinions on a whole group of people. We all need to stop slapping labels on people and let them live their life as they see fit.
As a trans man I have been shocked by how a small group of woman in our community like to marginalize FTMs when they them selves are marginalized by our society as a whole. You would think they would have a better understanding of how that feels.
Also, enough with the definitions. They are only someone's opinion anyway. How about we are all just human beings. There! Then no one can judge or hate if we are not defined, categorized or labeled. We are not insects for god sakes.
Sorry JDeere for jumping on my soap box. I get tired of being analyzed just to make a few others feel superior over another group of people.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by hopelessromantic69

In my opinion no one has the right to define anyone's relationship. I'm not sure why people think they are so important that they can impose their opinions on a whole group of people. We all need to stop slapping labels on people and let them live their life as they see fit.
As a trans man I have been shocked by how a small group of woman in our community like to marginalize FTMs when they them selves are marginalized by our society as a whole. You would think they would have a better understanding of how that feels.
Also, enough with the definitions. They are only someone's opinion anyway. How about we are all just human beings. There! Then no one can judge or hate if we are not defined, categorized or labeled. We are not insects for god sakes.
Sorry JDeere for jumping on my soap box. I get tired of being analyzed just to make a few others feel superior over another group of people.

Yes.

Thank you.

[JDeere]

Originally Posted by hopelessromantic69

In my opinion no one has the right to define anyone's relationship. I'm not sure why people think they are so important that they can impose their opinions on a whole group of people. We all need to stop slapping labels on people and let them live their life as they see fit.
As a trans man I have been shocked by how a small group of woman in our community like to marginalize FTMs when they them selves are marginalized by our society as a whole. You would think they would have a better understanding of how that feels.
Also, enough with the definitions. They are only someone's opinion anyway. How about we are all just human beings. There! Then no one can judge or hate if we are not defined, categorized or labeled. We are not insects for god sakes.
Sorry JDeere for jumping on my soap box. I get tired of being analyzed just to make a few others feel superior over another group of people.

I was asking for my own knowledge to try to understand where Koni is coming from, not to hear other's go off on a soapbox. Enjoy your day.

[hopelessromantic69]

Originally Posted by JDeere

I was asking for my own knowledge to try to understand where Koni is coming from, not to hear other's go off on a soapbox. Enjoy your day.

Sorry about that. I shouldn't have tied it to your post.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by JDeere

I'm asking for myself, not anyone else. Do you see or define lesbian as 2 cis gendered women in an adult relationship?

A lesbian by definition is a female homosexual aka same sex.

A gay man, by definition is a male homosexual aka same sex.

A bisexual, by definition is someone who sleeps with both sexes.

A heterosexual, by definition pertains to opposite sexes.

These are not my definitions, they are the definitions of sexual orientation.

This next part has nothing to do with you JD.

If you believe someone can identify as a lesbian or a female homosexual and sleep with trans or cis men or butches with dont touch my woman parts parameters, you have just negated their homosexuality/lesbianism/same sex orientation. You have just said, they are other than woman oriented, thus not homosexual. That is simple applied logic and common sense.

When a lesbian speaks to this, she does so because her identity as a female homosexual/same sex person is being negated or marginalized or distorted in their own supposed community by their own supposed community members. That is being disrespectful of someone else's identity. It is also homophobic.

And, more amazingly, the 4 of you think a female sticking up for herself and for homosexuals somehow translates into transphobia? Wow, talk about adding insult to injury.

A woman can say she is a lesbian or homosexual and sleep with variations of maleness but that is the antithesis of what a female homosexual is. I can say I am a heterosexual woman who only sleeps with other women but that is the antithesis of a heterosexual. I can say I am a giraffe but the other giraffes just pat me on the head and laugh at me when I do that - long story.

Gay people fight for gay marriage and even gay rights because they are homosexuals - same sex folks who fight for our right to exist, to be seen for who we are, and to be respected for who we are. And who we are are homosexuals - in same sex relationships.

And no one, even our own community, has the right to negate who we are, define who we are, to tell us we are something other than what we are, or to misconstrue the reality of who we are to make it more convenient for or more in tune to what they need us to be in order to validate themselves.

And, as I am on a roll here, this behavior is very much coming from a place of real or imagined male privilege. Hence, it is not only homophobic, it is also sexist and misogynistic.

[Gemme]

Wow. I'm sexist and misogynistic and am experiencing male privilege (since I think I may be included in the 4 you mentioned...maybe not...you weren't entirely clear about who you were addressing)?

You said yourself, Kobi, that "And no one, even our own community, has the right to negate who we are, define who we are, to tell us we are something other than what we are, or to misconstrue the reality of who we are to make it more convenient for or more in tune to what they need us to be in order to validate themselves."

What do you think you are doing to those lesbians who DO love and sleep with other people outside of your narrow scope that identify as lesbian? Yes, the definition of lesbian is rather narrow but then homosexuality was deemed a mental illness for eons. Science has been proven to be slow catching up to reality. So, scientifically, you are correct. Morally? Eh.....you are being hypocritical.

[JDeere]

Originally Posted by Kobi

A lesbian by definition is a female homosexual aka same sex.

A gay man, by definition is a male homosexual aka same sex.

A bisexual, by definition is someone who sleeps with both sexes.

A heterosexual, by definition pertains to opposite sexes.

These are not my definitions, they are the definitions of sexual orientation.

This next part has nothing to do with you JD.

If you believe someone can identify as a lesbian or a female homosexual and sleep with trans or cis men or butches with dont touch my woman parts parameters, you have just negated their homosexuality/lesbianism/same sex orientation. You have just said, they are other than woman oriented, thus not homosexual. That is simple applied logic and common sense.

When a lesbian speaks to this, she does so because her identity as a female homosexual/same sex person is being negated or marginalized or distorted in their own supposed community by their own supposed community members. That is being disrespectful of someone else's identity. It is also homophobic.

And, more amazingly, the 4 of you think a female sticking up for herself and for homosexuals somehow translates into transphobia? Wow, talk about adding insult to injury.

A woman can say she is a lesbian or homosexual and sleep with variations of maleness but that is the antithesis of what a female homosexual is. I can say I am a heterosexual woman who only sleeps with other women but that is the antithesis of a heterosexual. I can say I am a giraffe but the other giraffes just pat me on the head and laugh at me when I do that - long story.

Gay people fight for gay marriage and even gay rights because they are homosexuals - same sex folks who fight for our right to exist, to be seen for who we are, and to be respected for who we are. And who we are are homosexuals - in same sex relationships.

And no one, even our own community, has the right to negate who we are, define who we are, to tell us we are something other than what we are, or to misconstrue the reality of who we are to make it more convenient for or more in tune to what they need us to be in order to validate themselves.

And, as I am on a roll here, this behavior is very much coming from a place of real or imagined male privilege. Hence, it is not only homophobic, it is also sexist and misogynistic.

Thanks for answering!

[AmazonDC]

Originally Posted by Kobi

If who you sleep with does not define who and what you are, then you are negating the very essence of not only lesbianism but of homosexuality itself. And you are also negating the concept of sexual orientation.

That is some major homophobia rearing its ugly head.

The fact that people do not find this disturbing on a queer site is mind boggling.

Ummm by your definition this is a lesbian site not a queer site.. I don't understand why people have to worry about others bedrooms? Also by your definition STONE BUTCHES would not be lesbians either... so confused who qualifies... In the end your view and the views of other who may share this view dont dictate who others love or their identity... More love in this world and acceptance is what the world truely needs

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by DaddyChrisCo

Ummm by your definition this is a lesbian site not a queer site.. I don't understand why people have to worry about others bedrooms? Also by your definition STONE BUTCHES would not be lesbians either... so confused who qualifies... In the end your view and the views of other who may share this view dont dictate who others love or their identity... More love in this world and acceptance is what the world truely needs

Yes. If this was a lesbian site, by the above definition..."women loving women with no sexual boundaries", then the site would be cut by probably 75%.

It is my understanding, that this is a butch (as gender) and femme (as gender) site. There is also a long tradition of people who regard themselves as either completely outside of, or somewhat outside of, what is male or female (aka trans), being on a forum like this.

Some of us happen to identify as lesbian, as well.

The site is more about gender and who we are, than who we fuck, in my opinion. We are here because we are all queer and the butch-femme dynamic speaks to us in some way. Some of us have been together since 1998 when another butch-femme forum opened.

[AmazonDC]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Yes. If this was a lesbian site, by the above definition..."women loving women with no sexual boundaries", then the site would be cut by probably 75%.

It is my understanding, that this is a butch (as gender) and femme (as gender) site. There is also a long tradition of people who regard themselves as either completely outside of, or somewhat outside of, what is male or female (aka trans), being on a forum like this.

Some of us happen to identify as lesbian, as well.

The site is more about gender and who we are, than who we fuck, in my opinion. We are here because we are all queer and the butch-femme dynamic speaks to us in some way. Some of us have been together since 1998 when another butch-femme forum opened.

I remember the old site... I'm not trying to disrespect anyone on here but for someone to make it seem like peoe who aren't cut and dry just lesbians is disrespectful in itself.ty Dapper foe your input..

[Kobi]

First off, Gemme I was not including you in the 4. So you can nix that misconception.

As far as the rest I am now confused.

You tell us a FTM means a female to a male. And a MTF means a male to female.

I am not questioning how you got to male or female. I am factoring your self identity into the definitions of sexual orientation.

But now it appears you are saying sexual orientation, like gender, is a social construct. Hence, sexual orientation must be looked at as irrelevant and immaterial to who people are and how they see themselves.

Thats going to be news to those of us who see ourselves as gay, lesbian, homosexual and bisexual. Being gay, lesbian, homosexual, or bisexual is a huge part of who we are, how we define ourselves, the essence of who we are, and how we relate to the world. Whether it is too narrowly focused for YOUR tastes does not mean WE have to change to accommodate YOU.

It means we have the right to be seen for who we are, by our definition, for us. And, that definition is for us to make not you. This is our identity and it should be honored and respected, not negated, hijacked, or misconstrued to be something else.

If this doesnt suit another part of the spectrum, who thinks they have the right to define gay, lesbians, homosexual, and bisexuals people in a way that suits themselves is a problem of another sort.

The fact this is not seen as negating, homophobic, lesbophobic, biphobic and downright rude is very disturbing. It is a giant slap in the face and very disturbing.