Wanting to be a man of integrity: lost cause?

[suebee]

I'm going out on a limb here, having little rt contact with transmen, but I'm going at it from a developmental point of view. Most biomale children and adolescents DO get a slap upside the head - whether litteral or figurative - from the women, and hopefully the men in their lives when their posturing goes too far. It occurs to me that many if not most trans guys don't have the chance to be accepted as a male as a child or adolescent and therefore are "trying on" their maleness at a later age. Thus, the posturing you're talking about in their twenties and maybe beyond. Does this make any sense to you Linus?

ETA: I guess their male socialization has to come from guys like you Linus.

[Linus]

What both of you say makes sense but that doesn't justify nor excuse it. I've met plenty of young transman who have better integrity and purpose than this guy does.

[suebee]

ORRRRRRRRR..... it could just be that he's a mysogynistic idiot who's going to go through life with his head up his.....

[UofMfan]

Integrity, it is a lost art form, I see very little of it lately.

[Ursy]

Originally Posted by Linus

What both of you say makes sense but that doesn't justify nor excuse it. I've met plenty of young transman who have better integrity and purpose than this guy does.

Very true, it doesn't justify or excuse it... but then, who knows what set of circumstances this guy is a product of (did that even make sense?)

But back to the topic - I agree with UofMfan. I do think that integrity is less common these days than it used to be.

Everything seems to be declining somehow. I do think society is being "dumbed down" - I was watching a report on the news just last week, how literacy levels are steadily worsening over the years (this is in Australia, I imagine it's similar in the U.S.). Standards are slipping. What passes for news these days would have been considered infotainment and/or sloppy journalism 20 years ago. More and more is being aimed at the lowest common denominator. I think it's all related.

[suebee]

I don't know if this is part of it or not, but a major beef of mine is that basic manners don't seem to count as much as they used to. Individualism has seemed to take over in many ways. One pet peeve of mine is that students often call their teachers by their first name. I think this eliminates the number one way of teaching children that different rules apply in different social situations.

I also think that there is still some backlash from the age that I grew up in: that being the heydays of grassroots feminism. I think in in some ways this gives rise to a whole new class of mysogyny. Or maybe it's just the same-ole same-ole, but looks different to those of us that hoped some of the battles were won.

[little man]

our society has lost its finesse

[Martina]

Originally Posted by cybersuebee

I'm going out on a limb here, having little rt contact with transmen, but I'm going at it from a developmental point of view. Most biomale children and adolescents DO get a slap upside the head - whether litteral or figurative - from the women, and hopefully the men in their lives when their posturing goes too far. It occurs to me that many if not most trans guys don't have the chance to be accepted as a male as a child or adolescent and therefore are "trying on" their maleness at a later age. Thus, the posturing you're talking about in their twenties and maybe beyond. Does this make any sense to you Linus?

ETA: I guess their male socialization has to come from guys like you Linus.

A friend of mine -- a cisgender man -- has always made that point. He says that being raised a man, your mother, sisters, and first girlfriends socialize you pretty thoroughly about what you can and cannot say without being an ass. A couple of his gay make friends have dated transmen, and he has worked in lgbtq organizations.

His point was that some transmen outraged his sense of propriety about what a man should and should not say about women. He said that the guys he met stood out as different from cisgender men, not because of how they looked or anything other than that.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Martina

A friend of mine -- a cisgender man -- has always made that point. He says that being raised a man, your mother, sisters, and first girlfriends socialize you pretty thoroughly about what you can and cannot say without being an ass. A couple of his gay make friends have dated transmen, and he has worked in lgbtq organizations.

His point was that some transmen outraged his sense of propriety about what a man should and should not say about women. He said that the guys he met stood out as different from cisgender men, not because of how they looked or anything other than that.

That's interesting

Because I have a friend of mine, also a cisgender man, who has always made the point that butch lesbians really just want to be men. He often tells me about his history with his mother and sisters and first girilfriends and he too relates this to how butch lesbians are socialized and how they act.

Isn't that crazy?


Or Was Your Point Something Different?,
Dylan

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Dylan

That's interesting

Because I have a friend of mine, also a cisgender man, who has always made the point that butch lesbians really just want to be men. He often tells me about his history with his mother and sisters and first girilfriends and he too relates this to how butch lesbians are socialized and how they act.

Isn't that crazy?


Or Was Your Point Something Different?,
Dylan

i don't get your point Dylan, but i am not going to argue about it. We've done this one before. i think there's something to my friend's argument. i know it offends you. Maybe it is transphobic. i'll keep thinking about it.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Martina

i don't get your point Dylan, but i am not going to argue about it. We've done this one before. i think there's something to my friend's argument. i know it offends you. Maybe it is transphobic. i'll keep thinking about it.

My point is, using another person's voice who isn't part of the community you're dissecting is offensive

Just as offensive as if I were to use a man's random pontifications about why women act the way they do or using a straight person's pontifications about why queers do what they do.

Especially if you yourself are NOT part of the community you're speaking about

Dylan

ETA: Also using one person's voice as a spokesperson for all is also offensive

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Dylan

My point is, using another person's voice who isn't part of the community you're dissecting is offensive

Just as offensive as if I were to use a man's random pontifications about why women act the way they do or using a straight person's pontifications about why queers do what they do.

Especially if you yourself are NOT part of the community you're speaking about

Dylan

i see your point, but i don't know. i do seek an explanation for what has been my experience. i don't know. i still don't know.

[AtLast]

One of my first questions about this has to do with the age of the individual making the statements... how young? Human development and stage of life issues might have a lot to do with it. And would no matter the gender of a person.

In reading this, sure, I am offended in various ways. However, I can't throw what is offensive to me at the whole of transmen.. or even cismen. Just can't.

Ah, shit, I might be ageist! And I also feel that integrity & honor simply belong to the human condition and are not gender specific.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Dylan

My point is, using another person's voice who isn't part of the community you're dissecting is offensive

Just as offensive as if I were to use a man's random pontifications about why women act the way they do or using a straight person's pontifications about why queers do what they do.

Especially if you yourself are NOT part of the community you're speaking about

Dylan

ETA: Also using one person's voice as a spokesperson for all is also offensive

I'd also like to add that it's offensive to assume all transpeople have been socialized a certain way (I.e. not being taught the same way/things as the dominant/oppressing group)

As is expecting the oppressed group to 'act' the same way as the dominant/oppressing group.


Sorry For Continuing To Add And Clarify, But The Phone Rang And I Got Sidetracked,
Dylan