Butch/Femme Dynamic vs "Masculinity" and "Femininity"

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by BullDog

No I have never felt I was in any sort of masculinity competition with anyone - other butches, FTMs or cis males. My masculinity is my own and I don't feel the need to compete with anyone over it.

i wish this were true for me. i have compared my *level* of femme to other femmes.

i feel inadequate in that department but i am working on it.

no matter what, i am femme whatever the level is.

[CherryWine]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

i wish this were true for me. i have compared my *level* of femme to other femmes.

i feel inadequate in that department but i am working on it.

no matter what, i am femme whatever the level is.

Imagine how boring the butch/femme community would be if we were all the same "level" of butch or femme. We come in many different flavors, and, to me, that is a wonderful thing.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by CherryWine

Imagine how boring the butch/femme community would be if we were all the same "level" of butch or femme. We come in many different flavors, and, to me, that is a wonderful thing.

thank you!

i have been called out about not being feminine enough and that weighs on me.

i’ve moved on but there are moments.....

[Esme nha Maire]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

thank you!

i have been called out about not being feminine enough and that weighs on me.

i’ve moved on but there are moments.....

Awww.. try no to worry about it dee, I'm sure your partner thinks you're just fine as you are! :-}

I don't feel any need to compete with anyone with regard to butchness or femmeness. I know full well that I can no longer carry off femme visually so well as I could thirty years ago, and I've stopped feeling freaked out about being mistaken for a guy occasionally if I'm not wearing a skirt (which is nearly always, these days). I can see why some folk nowadays suppose me to be a butch - walking boots, jeans, tank-top, and either a long warm waistcoat with deep pockets or a biker jacket. Yet I always carry a handbag, and have shoulder length hair, and tend to use a quick dash of foundation and some lippy every day. And vanilla perfume. My attitudes toward other women more closely resemble a butches, and yet I'm innately a wallflower (hey, I had years of simply being pretty and waiting to see who got lured in by my appearance! It worked!), though I've been working hard on trying to overcome that. But if anyone chides me for being a wussy butch or a not very femme femme, I'll simply laugh in their face.

I'm a (hopefully) fine example of me, and I'm only competing with myself to be the best me I can be.

Harking back to an earlier bit of this thread, I've been pondering the terms masculinity/femininity and butch/femme. I can't quite explain it properly yet, but I've a feeling that seeing butchness in women as being female masculinity is kinda backwards somehow. I'm just thinking aloud here, no offence to anyone is intended - but I'd say that masculinity is male butchness, just as femininity is female femmeness. So... butch and femme are the more fundamental, but when butchness is expressed by a male or femmeness by a female, it then fits the societal sterotype of masculinity/femininity respectively. I think. Does that make sense? I'd be particularly interested to know what any of the FTM gents here think on this.

I came to this thought whilst considering my former discomfort at being occasionally thought butch. I came to the conclusion that it's not the butchness I mind so such as the implication that that somehow involves masculinity (which, given my background, is anathema to me!). Which raises the question, of course, as to whether my personal feelings have warped my perception to the point of mangling the language simply to make myself feel more comfortable. I don't think so, but please do say if you think I'm nuts and have done just that!

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Esme nha Maire

Harking back to an earlier bit of this thread, I've been pondering the terms masculinity/femininity and butch/femme. I can't quite explain it properly yet, but I've a feeling that seeing butchness in women as being female masculinity is kinda backwards somehow. I'm just thinking aloud here, no offence to anyone is intended - but I'd say that masculinity is male butchness, just as femininity is female femmeness. So... butch and femme are the more fundamental, but when butchness is expressed by a male or femmeness by a female, it then fits the societal sterotype of masculinity/femininity respectively. I think. Does that make sense? I'd be particularly interested to know what any of the FTM gents here think on this.

I came to this thought whilst considering my former discomfort at being occasionally thought butch. I came to the conclusion that it's not the butchness I mind so such as the implication that that somehow involves masculinity (which, given my background, is anathema to me!). Which raises the question, of course, as to whether my personal feelings have warped my perception to the point of mangling the language simply to make myself feel more comfortable. I don't think so, but please do say if you think I'm nuts and have done just that!

For me personally, no I do not view my masculinity as male butchness. I do view male as a biological and not a gender term - some people do use it as both. I don't consider myself to be male - either as my gender or biological sex.

I am a masculine female - which for me is the essence of what butch is (other butches have their own definitions that are different than mine).

To me saying male butchness sounds like imitating male, when I view my female masculinity as being my own and not something I am getting from males. I may look somewhat male, act similar to males in some ways, my sexuality is very similar to males in some ways, etc., but I grew up female and have experienced the world as a lesbian/queer female, which to me is an entirely different experience. I move through the world now as a butch not a man. I am not offended at all, it just doesn't fit for me.

[Esme nha Maire]

Originally Posted by BullDog

For me personally, no I do not view my masculinity as male butchness. I do view male as a biological and not a gender term - some people do use it as both. I don't consider myself to be male - either as my gender or biological sex.

I am a masculine female - which for me is the essence of what butch is (other butches have their own definitions that are different than mine).

To me saying male butchness sounds like imitating male, when I view my female masculinity as being my own and not something I am getting from males. I may look somewhat male, act similar to males in some ways, my sexuality is very similar to males in some ways, etc., but I grew up female and have experienced the world as a lesbian/queer female, which to me is an entirely different experience. I move through the world now as a butch not a man. I am not offended at all, it just doesn't fit for me.

Interesting, thank you, BullDog! Although I think you may have misunderstood what I wastrying to say, as I emphatically do not see butch women as being male in the slightest. See, to me, saying 'masculine female' seems to imply imitating the male, and now I've come across, albeit very briefly, a few women on the butch spectrum, I'd say that they didn't come across as imitating males at all - they were undeniably butch though. So what I'm trying to get at is that I'm thinking that instead of defining butchness in terms of 'degree of masculinity' (which to me makes it seem as though butch women are aping men), it ought to be that butchness is a thing in and of itself, no masculinity required.

Instead, I would argue, when a woman exhibits butchness she is, quite simply being a butch woman - but when a man exhibits butchness we might think of them as 'a butch man', but more commonly we'd skip that thought and use the term 'masculine', which means 'pertaining to maleness',and that, I would argue, is inappropriate when talking of women. So I am arguing that masculinity is simply the stereotypical expression of butchness in men, because the stereotype, for society as a whole, is that butchness is most often associated with males. There is no word meaning 'the stereotypical expression of butchnesss in women', and I don't think there needs to be, either, because butch women are a minority expression of butchness in society as a whole, and therefore aren't stereotypical in society as a whole.

In short - men are butch in their way, women are butch in their way, and whilst there are similarities, the underlying difference in sex/gender identity makes a difference. No need to imply that butch women are appropriating masculinity or trying to be like men at all. Whereas doing things the other way around, by defining butchness in terms of masculinity, may be, I think, what perpetuates the myth that butch women are somehow trying to be men - which is, of course, utter rubbish.

[BullDog]

Hi Esme nha Maire, Oh okay I think I did somewhat misunderstand you, although I didn't think you were saying butch women were male. Sorry I didn't get a lot of sleep, so I am probably not thinking real clearly.

I personally do see myself as a masculine female and my masculinity being distinct from male masculinity just through sheer life experience being different and being queer. But I also do agree masculinity can be a problematic term and our language tends to fail us when it comes to trying to describe and talk about gender. Thank you for your posts, I really enjoy them!

[JDeere]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

i wish this were true for me. i have compared my *level* of femme to other femmes.

i feel inadequate in that department but i am working on it.

no matter what, i am femme whatever the level is.

I feel the exact same way with my butchness, I feel very very inadequate a big majority of the time.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by JDeere

I feel the exact same way with my butchness, I feel very very inadequate a big majority of the time.

((( Jdeere ))))