Sex, Gender, or Sexual Orientation

[The_Lady_Snow]

So what would you say is my ID?

[Nat]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So what would you say is my ID?

I think I'll cheat and say I think your ID is "Kinky, Raw, Perverted, Uber Queer Alpha Femme."

But I think you are also saying you *are* queer, have always been queer, and that there is no choice in that - that it's who you are and it's deeper than ID.

I hope I'm making sense. :/ These are more the structures I've built inside my own head to make the world make sense, and maybe they only really work inside my head. I don't feel comfortable stating what I think your "ID" is, because it immediately starts to feel like labeling instead. I think your ID is most definitely something you are in charge of.

[The_Lady_Snow]

that you feel that you are queer by nature / queer sense birth - and to me that's not a discussion of "ID" as much as it's an honest open observation about your experience.


Hence why I asked the question...

It confused me I bit I guess cause I thought I was discussing my ID.

Make sense?

[Nat]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

that you feel that you are queer by nature / queer sense birth - and to me that's not a discussion of "ID" as much as it's an honest open observation about your experience.


Hence why I asked the question...

It confused me I bit I guess cause I thought I was discussing my ID.

Make sense?

Hee yes. I do apologize if I invaded your ID.

I was responding mostly to the conversation between Ezeetiger and andrew and linus about whether ID was a choice or not, which I felt came down to a difference in definitions of "id", and since the OP was talking about people having different understandings and how that makes it difficult to clearly communicate with each other, I was trying my best to explain what I see as the difference between experience and ID.

Originally Posted by Darth Denkay

I've noticed a commonality that runs through many of the threads. We use identity labels as we understand them, but we don't understand them all the same, which makes it difficult for us to clearly communicate with each other.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Nat

Hee yes. I do apologize if I invaded your ID.

I was responding mostly to the conversation between eztiger and andrew and linus about whether ID was a choice or not, which I felt came down to a difference in definitions of "id", and since the OP was talking about people having different understandings and how that makes it difficult to clearly communicate with each other, I was trying my best to explain what I see as the difference between experience and ID.

Ahhhhhhhh ok!!

Thank you so much for clarifying that for me!!!

[Nat]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Ahhhhhhhh ok!!

Thank you so much for clarifying that for me!!!

I'm sorry - sometimes my adhd brain leaves out important details like the main point.

[Daryn]

Originally Posted by Nat

To me, the line between sex and gender is a little blurry just because I can't help but think that there is a biological component often to a person's gender experience, and once biology enters the picture - is it really sex or gender?

Hmmm... can you talk a bit about why you think there is a biological component to gender experience? Do you think it has something to do with the brain (one theory) or hormones that the fetus was exposed to or ?????

On the topic of choice, the only choices I have made in my life are to embrace who I truly am. I found it easier to embrace being queer (loving women) that to embrace my masculinity (long trip from tomboy to trying to be straight girl to androgynous to soft butch to butch to genderqueer guy with no plans to transition). Coming out was a couple of years and while I was in college. The gender journey was a couple of decades...

[Nat]

Originally Posted by Daryn

Hmmm... can you talk a bit about why you think there is a biological component to gender experience? Do you think it has something to do with the brain (one theory) or hormones that the fetus was exposed to or ?????

The first reason I think there's a biological component is because I think humans are basically animals and that it's possible that every part of us has some biological basis.

I know this is exactly the opposite of much of queer theory.

Though I think gender has a performative element, and the way gender is expressed is tied very much to cultural constructions, the part of gender I'm talking about is the stuff that feels innate. Not "gender identity" or "gender expression" but how one experiences one's own gender and sex.

If I feel like there's a guy side of me, is that my psychology? informed by my experiences? Some people might say yes. Is it something spiritual? I sometimes wonder that. But there is always going to be a piece of me that wonders about my own DNA, my own hormone levels, my fetal development, etc. I will always wonder whether my feelings stem from a biological (chemical, developmental, genetic) cause.

And when people talk about experiencing the "phantum phalllus" - how extraordinary is that in a way? I don't know how common that experience is, but I've had it sometimes. I have known many female-bodied people (many who are woman identified, several who are not butch, but most queer) who experience that all of the time. It's hard for me to not think that's biologically based.

But, whether it can be scientifically ever proven - god knows. And I'm not sure I'd want that proven, because if it were something people could affect or discern early enough, how many queer fetuses would be aborted?

The brain is a part of the body, and I think to say that gender is not biologically based would be to say that gender is a result entirely of nurture rather than nature.

With most people I've known, and with my own personal experience, there is some feeling of always having felt a certain way about their gender. I haven't run into a person who says, "when I found out my dad wanted a boy instead of a girl, that's when I started feeling like a boy on the inside." I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I just haven't been exposed to anybody who says they feel like some life-event or influence changed their gender.

I think this is an area where my opinion may be fiercely disagreed with. It's not the informed opinion of a person who's studied this stuff in school or in private scholarly study. It's just my own opinion based on my own feelings and observations, and beyond that, maybe the reason I cling to it so much is that it's a theory that feels supportive to my own experience.

[Daryn]

Originally Posted by Nat

The first reason I think there's a biological component is because I think humans are basically animals and that it's possible that every part of us has some biological basis.

I don't think knowledge or experiences have a biological basis and both of them shape what is intrinsically part of individual identity.

I know this is exactly the opposite of much of queer theory.

Though I think gender has a performative element, and the way gender is expressed is tied very much to cultural constructions, the part of gender I'm talking about is the stuff that feels innate. Not "gender identity" or "gender expression" but how one experiences one's own gender and sex.

If I feel like there's a guy side of me, is that my psychology? informed by my experiences? Some people might say yes. Is it something spiritual? I sometimes wonder that. But there is always going to be a piece of me that wonders about my own DNA, my own hormone levels, my fetal development, etc. I will always wonder whether my feelings stem from a biological (chemical, developmental, genetic) cause.

And the "nuture over nature gang" would see it totally opposite. But I don't necessarily agree with all of that either. I think it's likely a combination of genetics and environment.

And when people talk about experiencing the "phantum phalllus" - how extraordinary is that in a way? I don't know how common that experience is, but I've had it sometimes. I have known many female-bodied people (many who are woman identified, several who are not butch, but most queer) who experience that all of the time. It's hard for me to not think that's biologically based.

I've been told by a very feminine straight woman that she's experienced it.

But, whether it can be scientifically ever proven - god knows. And I'm not sure I'd want that proven, because if it were something people could affect or discern early enough, how many queer fetuses would be aborted?

The brain is a part of the body, and I think to say that gender is not biologically based would be to say that gender is a result entirely of nurture rather than nature.

With most people I've known, and with my own personal experience, there is some feeling of always having felt a certain way about their gender. I haven't run into a person who says, "when I found out my dad wanted a boy instead of a girl, that's when I started feeling like a boy on the inside." I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I just haven't been exposed to anybody who says they feel like some life-event or influence changed their gender.

I think this is an area where my opinion may be fiercely disagreed with. It's not the informed opinion of a person who's studied this stuff in school or in private scholarly study. It's just my own opinion based on my own feelings and observations, and beyond that, maybe the reason I cling to it so much is that it's a theory that feels supportive to my own experience.

And I am betting the truth is part of both...

[chai~]

~bookmarking~

[Jett]

I think we've had and do still have difficulties defining and agreeing upon various identities because there are so many variations of each identity. It can become difficult when some "markers" in some individuals begin to overlap other with "markers" of another identity... confusing for those who only have a small box for each one. The brain works as smoothly as it does because it basically wants to simplify things in order to be able to store and retrieve great quantities of information quickly, easily and efficiently... that and then some peeps just see things the way they desire them to look and can get really closed minded with things they are passionate about. Too, often times we're still learning, and just haven't "gotten there" yet.

I don't think your internal make-up that we call identity is a choice, I think the words we use to describe it is. I choose to for the most part not to verbally "identify", but I could identify myself using queer gender oriented words, I just don't at this time in my life. For one I have a strong inkling to just fucking be... to just exist and enjoy without thinking about it, no rules, no others definitions chaffing my ass... and two because I don't care (perhaps linked to reason one haha).

To me it is extremely simple, I am unrepentant female masculinity on the inside, at the core, and am mostly a mix of masculine and feminine markers on the outside, maybe slightly more so one way or the other on cues of mood. BUT I always am who I am on the inside... and to me that is what makes you who you are, makes your truth in identity, not underwear, shoes, haircut, definition or a word- or others ridiculous stamp approval *choke* or disapproval of your choices or appearance. Freedom- is breaking free from what you think you should be and just being who you are... truth in self- is the inner reality of things and finding and living in that genuinely... everything else, all the fluff and hubbub is just noise.

Let people talk, no matter what you do they always will... just make sure you dance and enjoy the fuck out life and of yourself while they are huddled around doing it.

[lisa93]

a lot of ppl get these mixed up