Moral and Epistemic Relativism

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I believe I said there are universal truths. Humans interpret or describe universal truths based on their perception of reality at a given time. These perceptions change over time as we gather more and more knowledge. Hence we are saying, it appears, the same thing.

I must have misread you then. I thought that you were agreeing with the Wagner quotation. My apologies.

Cheers
Aj

[Kobi]

I was agreeing with Wagner.

At one time, people thought the world was flat. It was their truth, at that time. Then, we discovered the world was round. A new truth appeared.

It would be presumptuous for me as a mere human to think everything I take for granted as truth at this point in time is the end all and be all of the truth. At some point, someone may indeed be able to prove a new truth.

Hence, a collective hunch is an agreed upon reality which is subject to change as our knowledge expands.

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I must have misread you then. I thought that you were agreeing with the Wagner quotation. My apologies.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I was agreeing with Wagner.

At one time, people thought the world was flat. It was their truth, at that time. Then, we discovered the world was round. A new truth appeared.

It would be presumptuous for me as a mere human to think everything I take for granted as truth at this point in time is the end all and be all of the truth. At some point, someone may indeed be able to prove a new truth.

Hence, a collective hunch is an agreed upon reality which is subject to change as our knowledge expands.

I'm curious, why call it their truth and not their belief? It wasn't true, they believed it to be true but that didn't make it any less a false belief for all that. I understand that people do not old beliefs they *know* to be false but it seems that calling something 'their truth' gives a false belief a pride of place it does not merit. Did a 'new' truth appear or did humans finally get it correct? I would argue the latter. Certainly, all our knowledge (well, very large swaths of it) should come with the proviso of "to the best of our knowledge, at this time, subject to modification without prior notice". However, when that day comes in some knowledge domain or another what would be so wrong about stating "in 2010, humans believed this to be true. They were, of course, wrong about that because...".

[Kobi]

Had to think about this but again, I believe we are saying the same thing using different words.

Call it truth or belief or hamburger, it is still the prevailing agreed upon thought/perception at a given time which is based on our understanding of a certain body of knowledge which is intrepreted in a certain way using certain words and concepts which are agreed upon to reflect the situation.

Simplistic interpretation of above....reality is a collective hunch at a certain time, in a certain place by a certain group of people using a certain criteria by which to evaluate a certain thing.

Our knowledge and the ways we are able to apply it are growing at a tremendous rate. So, all in all, maybe the question should be is there an ultimate truth, an end all be all truth, at which point humans would say yes we are done searching because this is it. Or, is the potential for knowledge so great that our search for truth(s) is an infinite project.

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I'm curious, why call it their truth and not their belief? It wasn't true, they believed it to be true but that didn't make it any less a false belief for all that. I understand that people do not old beliefs they *know* to be false but it seems that calling something 'their truth' gives a false belief a pride of place it does not merit. Did a 'new' truth appear or did humans finally get it correct? I would argue the latter. Certainly, all our knowledge (well, very large swaths of it) should come with the proviso of "to the best of our knowledge, at this time, subject to modification without prior notice". However, when that day comes in some knowledge domain or another what would be so wrong about stating "in 2010, humans believed this to be true. They were, of course, wrong about that because...".

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Had to think about this but again, I believe we are saying the same thing using different words.

Call it truth or belief or hamburger, it is still the prevailing agreed upon thought/perception at a given time which is based on our understanding of a certain body of knowledge which is intrepreted in a certain way using certain words and concepts which are agreed upon to reflect the situation.

Simplistic interpretation of above....reality is a collective hunch at a certain time, in a certain place by a certain group of people using a certain criteria by which to evaluate a certain thing.

Our knowledge and the ways we are able to apply it are growing at a tremendous rate. So, all in all, maybe the question should be is there an ultimate truth, an end all be all truth, at which point humans would say yes we are done searching because this is it. Or, is the potential for knowledge so great that our search for truth(s) is an infinite project.

That's an interesting question. I think there are SOME ultimate truths but I think that there are probably only a handful of them and almost all of them are going to fall into one of the physical sciences. The Second Law of Thermodynamics is one such Ultimate Truth. As one eminent physicist put it:

"The law that entropy always increases holds, I think, the supreme position among the laws of Nature. If someone points out to you that your pet theory of the universe is in disagreement with Maxwell's equations — then so much the worse for Maxwell's equations. If it is found to be contradicted by observation — well, these experimentalists do bungle things sometimes. But if your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to collapse in deepest humiliation." — Sir Arthur Stanley Eddington, The Nature of the Physical World (1927)

I think to know what ultimate truths there are, we will ultimately have to meet another sentient species at or beyond our technological level to see what they hit upon. I expect that if we ever do have such an encounter, we'll agree on the speed of light, we'll agree that the Universe is expanding, they will have some kind of formulation approximating classical mechanics, they'll have some kind of formulation approximating Einstein's theories of relativity, they'll have something along the lines of the atomic model and we'll agree on things like the approximate value of pi and they'll have something recognizable as quantum mechanics. I suspect that they'll understand our chemistry although not, necessarily, our organic chemistry if they aren't from a world where life is carbon based as it is here. (Silicon based life is possible, it just didn't happen here.)

After that, I think the areas that we would agree upon would fall off rather quickly. I don't think we can make any kind of pretensions to Ultimate Truth claims about the purpose of the Universe or the nature of a divine being if any such thing exists. All our religious claims are local affairs. All our history is local (although I still think that there are truth claims about history that can be made). By local, I mean here on Earth and I'm willing to be generous and extend it out to the whole of the solar system but not beyond that.

[Kobi]

This is something I must think about as the mention of the second law of thermodynamics made my eyes glaze over. Brain fatigue perhaps. Fresh eyes and brain may help. Will revisit tomorrow.

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

That's an interesting question. I think there are SOME ultimate truths but I think that there are probably only a handful of them and almost all of them are going to fall into one of the physical sciences. The Second Law of Thermodynamics is one such Ultimate Truth. As one eminent physicist put it:

"The law that entropy always increases holds, I think, the supreme position among the laws of Nature. If someone points out to you that your pet theory of the universe is in disagreement with Maxwell's equations — then so much the worse for Maxwell's equations. If it is found to be contradicted by observation — well, these experimentalists do bungle things sometimes. But if your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to collapse in deepest humiliation." — Sir Arthur Stanley Eddington, The Nature of the Physical World (1927)

I think to know what ultimate truths there are, we will ultimately have to meet another sentient species at or beyond our technological level to see what they hit upon. I expect that if we ever do have such an encounter, we'll agree on the speed of light, we'll agree that the Universe is expanding, they will have some kind of formulation approximating classical mechanics, they'll have some kind of formulation approximating Einstein's theories of relativity, they'll have something along the lines of the atomic model and we'll agree on things like the approximate value of pi and they'll have something recognizable as quantum mechanics. I suspect that they'll understand our chemistry although not, necessarily, our organic chemistry if they aren't from a world where life is carbon based as it is here. (Silicon based life is possible, it just didn't happen here.)

After that, I think the areas that we would agree upon would fall off rather quickly. I don't think we can make any kind of pretensions to Ultimate Truth claims about the purpose of the Universe or the nature of a divine being if any such thing exists. All our religious claims are local affairs. All our history is local (although I still think that there are truth claims about history that can be made). By local, I mean here on Earth and I'm willing to be generous and extend it out to the whole of the solar system but not beyond that.

[Kobi]

After careful thought and brain gymnastics, I am thinking we disagree on a central premise. I believe you are saying their are absolutes truths for which no other explanation will ever be found by humankind as a species.

I believe otherwise. I believe anything, including the second law of thermodynamics , can be proven to be a false truth or an incomplete truth. I think as we develop new techologies and ask new questions in our research, the possibility exists for new explanations or clarifications for previously held truths.

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

That's an interesting question. I think there are SOME ultimate truths but I think that there are probably only a handful of them and almost all of them are going to fall into one of the physical sciences. The Second Law of Thermodynamics is one such Ultimate Truth. As one eminent physicist put it:

"The law that entropy always increases holds, I think, the supreme position among the laws of Nature. If someone points out to you that your pet theory of the universe is in disagreement with Maxwell's equations — then so much the worse for Maxwell's equations. If it is found to be contradicted by observation — well, these experimentalists do bungle things sometimes. But if your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to collapse in deepest humiliation." — Sir Arthur Stanley Eddington, The Nature of the Physical World (1927)

I think to know what ultimate truths there are, we will ultimately have to meet another sentient species at or beyond our technological level to see what they hit upon. I expect that if we ever do have such an encounter, we'll agree on the speed of light, we'll agree that the Universe is expanding, they will have some kind of formulation approximating classical mechanics, they'll have some kind of formulation approximating Einstein's theories of relativity, they'll have something along the lines of the atomic model and we'll agree on things like the approximate value of pi and they'll have something recognizable as quantum mechanics. I suspect that they'll understand our chemistry although not, necessarily, our organic chemistry if they aren't from a world where life is carbon based as it is here. (Silicon based life is possible, it just didn't happen here.)

After that, I think the areas that we would agree upon would fall off rather quickly. I don't think we can make any kind of pretensions to Ultimate Truth claims about the purpose of the Universe or the nature of a divine being if any such thing exists. All our religious claims are local affairs. All our history is local (although I still think that there are truth claims about history that can be made). By local, I mean here on Earth and I'm willing to be generous and extend it out to the whole of the solar system but not beyond that.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Kobi

After careful thought and brain gymnastics, I am thinking we disagree on a central premise. I believe you are saying their are absolutes truths for which no other explanation will ever be found by humankind as a species.

I believe otherwise. I believe anything, including the second law of thermodynamics , can be proven to be a false truth or an incomplete truth. I think as we develop new techologies and ask new questions in our research, the possibility exists for new explanations or clarifications for previously held truths.

That's not *exactly* what I'm saying. I always hold out the possibility that, for instance, the laws of thermodynamics could be overturned although I think that's vanishingly improbable. I like to use a scale from 0 - 1 with 0 being "certainly untrue" and 1 being "certainly true". Very large swaths of physics, for instance, I think are in the .7 to .9 range. It's *possible* but extraordinarily improbable that we're wrong. There are other areas, string theory for instance, where I have moved from the .4 - .5 range (probably true) to the .1 - .3 range (almost certainly not true). I'm never absolutely certain because of one of the sayings that I keep on the wall of my study: "When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is probably wrong."

That said, I think that most of the time we can proceed as-if some matter were settled until Nature, which always has the last word, says otherwise. Now, there are some areas that I'm pretty close to certain. The atomic model, the quantum mechanical model, the Einstein model of gravity and space-time and, on this planet, evolution are all .8 or .9 certainties for me. If any of those are wrong then not only are their respective domains irreparably broken but we, all 6 billion of us, are living in a very elaborate collective hallucination. What I mean by this is that, for instance, if the atomic and quantum mechanical models are wrong then you aren't reading this and I'm not typing this because computers don't work. If evolution is wrong then Nature has a lot to answer for because there's all kinds of genetic evidence that makes no sense except in the light of evolution. If thermodynamics is wrong then, again, Nature needs to explain why the flat tire I had on my bike a couple of weeks ago will never spontaneously inflate itself and why the coffee cup one of my cats broke will never spontaneously reform itself. (I would put the 2nd law in the .01 certainty range because of the kinds of examples above.)

There are no areas of science that I think are settled in that there's no more work to be done in them. If you think that's what I'm saying then that's entirely not what I’m saying. However, I AM saying that, barring contradicting evidence, I can proceed in my field of bioinformatics *as if* the chemistry underlying biology was a, more or less, settled matter at least in the broad outline and that the physics underlying the chemistry is also a settled matter, again at least in the broad outline.

I'm curious about something. How do you deal with past false truths? The reason I'm asking is because the examples I use to play with these ideas in my head all, generally, orbit around either the physical sciences or questions related to things that people believed in the past. For example, what kind of truth value would you give to the 19th century belief that I, as a black woman, was not quite really human. Was it true then but not true now? Was it false then and false now? The reason I ask is NOT--and I want to make this clear--because I think your'e racist but because it's a tough question. If we want to grant 19th century people that their worldview was consistent, valid and *true* and we are going to grant their beliefs the dignity of saying "well, it was true then" it begs the question of when racial bigotry became an injustice.

For example, no one ever complains that it is unjust that 18 months old infants aren't allowed to drive cars or fly jumbo jets. Everyone recognizes that 18 month olds lack the physical or mental abilities to do so and so, forbidding them from those activities isn't an injustice. Even if there were some extraordinarily precocious 18 month old who could it still wouldn't be an injustice since the *average* behavior of children of that age completely justified society forbidding kids from doing those things. So quite a bit turns on how we treat false beliefs from the past. If we grant those beliefs that were based in bigotry the dignity of calling them truths--even if we do not believe them ourselves--then what grounds do we have to claim that an injustice was being perpetrated? If blacks really WERE not-quite-human in the 19th century then on what grounds can we say that slavery was actually an evil? Is it an evil to keep a pet dog? Is it an evil to keep a cow? Slavery is an evil because it is wrong to use or treat humans as mere instruments but we draw a line between humans and other, less neurologically gifted, animals.

Do you see what I'm driving at?

[Nat]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I'm curious, why call it their truth and not their belief? It wasn't true, they believed it to be true but that didn't make it any less a false belief for all that. I understand that people do not old beliefs they *know* to be false but it seems that calling something 'their truth' gives a false belief a pride of place it does not merit. Did a 'new' truth appear or did humans finally get it correct? I would argue the latter. Certainly, all our knowledge (well, very large swaths of it) should come with the proviso of "to the best of our knowledge, at this time, subject to modification without prior notice". However, when that day comes in some knowledge domain or another what would be so wrong about stating "in 2010, humans believed this to be true. They were, of course, wrong about that because...".

I think this is an interesting question.

I know that my own tendency toward using the word "truth" or even "fact" about beliefs from the past which have been proven untrue has to do with imagining myself in the world of the past while speaking of it.

If I imagine myself in that world, the common "knowledge", the perceived "truth" and accepted "facts" seem to make up the skeletal structure of that world. The "beliefs" of that world would be something I might imagine as soft tissue.

The way you state things there at the end bridges the gap for me - "believed to be true" makes perfect sense to me - though I don't know if I would spontaneously come to these words on my own, nor would I mind referring to those past false understandings as "truths".

I think the word "truth" is also murkier because it is used so much in a spiritual context. If religions are always seeking the "Truth", if people are always looking for their inner "truth" - it's already understood that this definition of truth has nothing to do with physical reality and facts. So in some ways, "truth" might even be its own antonym.

[Kobi]

Is it a false understanding or an incomplete understanding? Or, perhaps did we ask the wrong question?

Example. A generalize agreement over centuries and today is the sky is blue. But by todays knowledge we know that when transmitted light such as sunlight enters our atmosphere it collides with the oxygen and nitrogen atoms. The color with the shorter wavelength is scattered more by this collision. Because violet and blue are the shortest wavelengths the sky appears to be violet / blue. But because our eyes are more sensitive to blue light than they are violet light, we perceive the sky as blue.

So is the sky blue because it is blue or is it blue because human eyes perceive it is blue? Or is it blue because the neurochemistry of the brain is telling the eye what it is perceiving is the color blue? Or, have I now totally confused even myself?

Originally Posted by Nat

I think this is an interesting question.

I know that my own tendency toward using the word "truth" or even "fact" about beliefs from the past which have been proven untrue has to do with imagining myself in the world of the past while speaking of it.

If I imagine myself in that world, the common "knowledge", the perceived "truth" and accepted "facts" seem to make up the skeletal structure of that world. The "beliefs" of that world would be something I might imagine as soft tissue.

The way you state things there at the end bridges the gap for me - "believed to be true" makes perfect sense to me - though I don't know if I would spontaneously come to these words on my own, nor would I mind referring to those past false understandings as "truths".

I think the word "truth" is also murkier because it is used so much in a spiritual context. If religions are always seeking the "Truth", if people are always looking for their inner "truth" - it's already understood that this definition of truth has nothing to do with physical reality and facts. So in some ways, "truth" might even be its own antonym.

[little man]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Is it a false understanding or an incomplete understanding? Or, perhaps did we ask the wrong question?

Example. A generalize agreement over centuries and today is the sky is blue. But by todays knowledge we know that when transmitted light such as sunlight enters our atmosphere it collides with the oxygen and nitrogen atoms. The color with the shorter wavelength is scattered more by this collision. Because violet and blue are the shortest wavelengths the sky appears to be violet / blue. But because our eyes are more sensitive to blue light than they are violet light, we perceive the sky as blue.

So is the sky blue because it is blue or is it blue because human eyes perceive it is blue? Or is it blue because the neurochemistry of the brain is telling the eye what it is perceiving is the color blue? Or, have I now totally confused even myself?

for me, this tracks back to relativity. relative to time, perception and (as you've stated) generally agreed upon notions.

if you take into account folks who are color blind, animals that don't see color...where does that leave the 'factuality' of "the sky is blue"?

[Kobi]

Good point. Kind of gives new meaning to...in the eye of the beholder.

Originally Posted by little man

for me, this tracks back to relativity. relative to time, perception and (as you've stated) generally agreed upon notions.

if you take into account folks who are color blind, animals that don't see color...where does that leave the 'factuality' of "the sky is blue"?