Gulf Oil Slick

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by MsDemeanor

THIS is how you choose to evaluate a presidency? Comments like this - stupid ass dribble put forth by the Repugs and Faux Newz and then repeated by all thier little followers until people think that it's true - show so clearly what is so very wrong with this country - that too many people get caught up in nonsense shit instead of paying attention to what matters. I understand judging him on policy and stuff that matters, but to go all high and mighty over where he spent a holiday? Give me a fucking break.

One of the things that gets me about where our politics are now is that they are almost COMPLETELY divorced from facts. It's not just that right-wing talk show hosts or FOX news say things that are factually untrue. It's that they know that for many people it does not *matter* if things are factually true or not. Most people, on hearing "President Obama isn't going to Arlington", wouldn't even *think* to Google "how many times have Presidents been out of Washington DC on Memorial day". This might seem trivial but it's not.

What this means is that our politics are no longer at all fact-based or fact-biased. If someone says that, for instance, Reagan was POTUS from 1968 until 1988 it no longer *matters* whether or not that is even possible! Let me repeat that--it no longer matters, to a non-trivial portion of the American body politic--whether or not some statement X is true or not, or even if the statement is *plausible*. When a culture reaches that point, they have a serious problem on their hands because politics stops--or more poignantly politics becomes nothing *but* scoring political points.

Were 'Death panels' in the HCR bill? No. Did it matter? No. All that mattered is that people *said* that they were in the bill. The facts were irrelevant and it was considered perfectly acceptable to vote against the bill based upon *false* information. Does it matter that other Presidents missed Memorial Day at Arlington? No. All that matters is that people say that Obama is the *first* POTUS to miss that holiday at Arlington.

So here we are with a slate of problems on our plate, any ONE of which is difficult but taken together appear overwhelming and we have both a political class and a body politic that, it appears, are no longer interested in making decisions based upon facts and, in fact, seem to be rapidly losing the ability to distinguish between a fact and an opinion or to acknowledge that there is a non-trivial difference between the two. The Gulf oil spill is going to be yet another example of this. In six months or a year, when clean-up operations are still proceeding someone--probably at FOX--is going to make a statement along the lines of "the shrimp catching industry wasn't big along the Gulf Coast, why enviro-whackos are making this big deal about shrimp when there were no shrimp there..." and people are going to react *as if* it were true. Very few people will actually take the 30 seconds it would take to Google 'shrimp industry Gulf coast' to see if, in fact, there was ever a thriving shrimping industry in Louisiana. They will vote for some politician who takes up what is said on FOX and parrot it even though it is demonstrably untrue. That person will go to Washington or their state legislature or governor's office or what-have-you and make decisions based on something but not based on facts. And then, when the next election cycle rolls around, that person will not be punished for making non-fact based decisions and pushing non-fact based policies.

How we get out of this problem I have no idea. The people who repeat these non-factual assertions aren't stupid. Some of them are quite intelligent. It's just that as a *culture* we have lost the ability or willingness to think critically and can no longer make a useful distinction between fact and opinion.

Cheers
Aj

[MsDemeanor]

My new favorite is "there were no terrorist attacks on US soil during the Bush (43) administration".

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by MsDemeanor

My new favorite is "there were no terrorist attacks on US soil during the Bush (43) administration".

Yeah, I love that one too!

[Andrew, Jr.]

I'm Democrat. I never voted for any of the Bush's.

Sorry my remarks here are worthless pieces of shit, MsDemeanor and Dreadgeek. I am very offended when people have no respect for our vets and active duty soldiers. I have relatives who are both vets, and in Iraq. One of my nephews just joined the Army. He is headed for his first tour of duty, and left last week. I also have a problem when a sitting President cannot offer comfort to the families of those who died in the blast. And due to some bullshit of a bill from the 40's those families will not receive much if any money because of it. Obama signed up for the job, and should be held to it.

I will keep my opinions to myself.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Andrew, Jr.

I'm Democrat. I never voted for any of the Bush's.

Sorry my remarks here are worthless pieces of shit, MsDemeanor and Dreadgeek. I am very offended when people have no respect for our vets and active duty soldiers. I have relatives who are both vets, and in Iraq. One of my nephews just joined the Army. He is headed for his first tour of duty, and left last week. I also have a problem when a sitting President cannot offer comfort to the families of those who died in the blast. And due to some bullshit of a bill from the 40's those families will not receive much if any money because of it. Obama signed up for the job, and should be held to it.

I will keep my opinions to myself.

Firstly, I didn't say your remarks were worthless pieces of shit. I'm curious, though, if you held every other president to the same standard? You said that you lost all respect for Obama because he didn't go to Arlington this year. I'm curious if you have no respect for Bush the Younger, Clinton, Bush the Elder, Reagan, Carter, Ford, and Nixon based upon their performance of that act. This isn't about who you voted for, Andrew. It's not about your party affiliation. YOU (not I or MsD) said that you lost all respect for Obama based upon his not going to Arlington on Memorial Day. Now, whatever I might think about using that as a touchstone for grading a President (and I have thoughts on that matter), what I was asking about was whether or not you applied this standard in a consistent fashion. If not, then why not? If so, then why *that* standard? All I was looking for from you, Andrew, was whether or not this "what did you do on Memorial Day, Mr. President" standard was applied fairly and evenly or was this a special standard for Mr. Obama. That's it.

Look, perhaps we have different standards for Presidents. For you, perhaps their performance of symbolic and ceremonial duties (which count for something) trumps policy. For me, policy trumps everything else. I don't even care, as much, about always keeping all their campaign promises but I DO care about what kinds of policies they enact, why they enact them and how they fight for those policies. The ceremonial duties may or may not put a lump in my throat but I'm not going to lose respect for some pol because of what s/he chose to do on some holiday.

One last thing:

As far as doing this thing--and people here do this a lot and as a veteran it *REALLY* pisses me off, by the way--is trotting out their relatives who are veterans to be air cover. Look, I am a vet, as is my son, as is my sister, as was my father before us. A member of my extended family has served in every single war this nation has fought since WWI. There are, within my immediate family, two Purple Hearts and a Bronze star. I have, on my mother's side, three former Tuskegee Airmen. My father was a member of the storied 761st Tank Battalion. My sister made it a career and retired as a Major in 2005. I would have made it a career but I was cashiered for being queer. My son is a Ranger. He is *not* on his fourth deployment to Iraq because he's on his *first* deployment to Afghanistan. So it's been Iraq-Iraq-Iraq-Afghanistan. That's been the last six years of his life and you know what, he's signing up for a second hitch! Now, what have I just proved? Have I made myself more correct? Do I have an argument that judging the POTUS on what he did on his long Memorial Day weekend might not be the best standard?

We're not props and we don't give folks an argument when they don't otherwise have one. I was a soldier. I'd do it again in a heartbeat but I didn't do it so I could be trotted out on an Internet message board as a prop to bolster a flailing argument. I am glad and appreciative that you honor our veterans--but you aren't the only one and, pardon me for being obtuse but I was just enlisted--what on Earth do your relatives have to do with THIS topic? The day someone here says something horrible about a veteran *because* they are a veteran, I will absolutely stand with you but I just don't get why you felt the need to wave your service-member relatives and/or friends around on this thread.

Cheers
Aj

[AtLast]

Ummm... if my facts are correct... I remember President Obama receiving the bodies of fallen soldiers at about 4 am early in his term. I believe (if I am wrong, do tell me), that this was the first time the bodies of the fallen were greeted by a US President upon arriving home since the start of both the Iraq & Afghanistan Wars.

During both Bush admins (maybe Clinton, as well), this did not occur.

Yes, facts.... seems we in the US have no use for them any longer. Personally, I am sick of what so called news reporting has become. It isn't!

I did a personal experiment last week because I realized my BP is not as good as I need it to be (even on medication, loosing weight, eating well, etc). The economic tide of the Great recession is taking its toll on me (and everyone). So, in an attempt to be more in touch with what shoots my BP up, I started taking it pre and post watching my usual news programs. I actually watch several different ones.

Yup, my BP soared post watching! And it didn't matter what show I watched... Rachael or Anderson, Keith, or Chris or Ed. I sometimes take a look at faux news programs so I can get a feel for all the fact reporting.. not much difference in how high my BP rose compared to the other programs!

I am cutting down on all news programming! No matter what I watch, there are discrepancies with facts. The only programs that seems to agree with my BP is the News Hour, Democracy Now, NPR and BBC coverage as well.

Guess I need to stay away from talking point types...

[Jet]

I could cry

Several photos are released on Yahoo today

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Animal...788f972a9e2e99

[MsDemeanor]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Ummm... if my facts are correct... I remember President Obama receiving the bodies of fallen soldiers at about 4 am early in his term. I believe (if I am wrong, do tell me), that this was the first time the bodies of the fallen were greeted by a US President upon arriving home since the start of both the Iraq & Afghanistan Wars.

Yep, that's what happened. There is an official 'ceremony' (not the right word, but it's too early for the dictionary side of my brain to work) for each casket - part on the plane and part once on the tarmac. Though the cameras were there for only one or two of these, Obama stayed all night.

Also, until Obama, no cameras had been allowed since 1991:

President George H.W. Bush's administration imposed the ban on media coverage of the arrival of fallen troops' remains at Dover Air Force Base during the Gulf War in February 1991. It came about after a controversy arose when Bush held a news conference at the same moment the first U.S. casualties were returning to Dover the day after the U.S. invasion of Panama in 1989, and three television networks carried the events live on split screen, with Bush appearing at one point to joke while on the opposite screen the solemn ceremony unfolded at the Delaware base.

Both Republican and Democratic administrations have upheld the Dover ban, but both have also made notable exceptions, which some observers view as politically expedient. For example, under President Bill Clinton in October 2000, the Pentagon distributed photographs of coffins arriving at Dover bearing the remains of military personnel killed in the bombing of the USS Cole.

linkyloo

[Diavolo]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I am cutting down on all news programming! No matter what I watch, there are discrepancies with facts. The only programs that seems to agree with my BP is the News Hour, Democracy Now, NPR and BBC coverage as well.

Guess I need to stay away from talking point types...

I turned off my cable about four months ago. I search out my news online and listen to NPR when I'm driving. (I drive a lot for work) I'm happier and better informed.

[Linus]

Interesting graphic that suggests possible outlook of the flow if it continues for an extended period (until relief wells are built)

[MsDemeanor]

Originally Posted by Andrew, Jr.

I'm Democrat. I never voted for any of the Bush's.

Sorry my remarks here are worthless pieces of shit, MsDemeanor and Dreadgeek. I am very offended when people have no respect for our vets and active duty soldiers. I have relatives who are both vets, and in Iraq. One of my nephews just joined the Army. He is headed for his first tour of duty, and left last week. I also have a problem when a sitting President cannot offer comfort to the families of those who died in the blast. And due to some bullshit of a bill from the 40's those families will not receive much if any money because of it. Obama signed up for the job, and should be held to it.

I will keep my opinions to myself.

Wow, that's quite a pity party response. The whole point of posting on a discussion board is to discuss. If you don't want people to respond to or question your opinions, then keeping them to yourself might be an appropriate course of action.