Socialisation and related issues

[Bex-9Tales]

Hi Esme,

I appreciate your well-thought out response to this. And while I can't speak for you and your experiences, I personally can't see how any MTF can claim to not have been affected in any way by male socialization; I actually used to think the same way as you - that I hated being socialized male, that I always "thought" female - and in many ways I suppose I did. I always gave more accord to women than men, I was always a bit suspicious of men. But as I began to make myself become more self-deconstructive and aware, I could see the sub-conscious signs of it. The way women born and raised as women often constantly apologize for things they don't need to, the way they are self-effacing, they way they will back down from arguments instead of standing their ground. So so so much of this comes from the 24/7 indoctrination from Western culture, and we don't even appreciate it. How it shapes, molds, and warps us, in ways we don't even appreciate it.

And yes, male privilege is out there, and yes, we benefited from it. There have definitely been times I can recall where I was given more accord because I was presenting male at the time. I can definition think of times where I had to aggressively push a cause to get something - a raise, more resources, what have you, and a lot of that came from pre-programmed "male" behaviors.

And yes, definitely there are some transwomen who "grok" womanthink better than others. I am sad to say that I have come across transwomen who seem to be, and I apologize for how shitty this is going to sound, little more than a male in a dress. They're anti-feminist, they're entitled in the way only men can be, they talk over other women constantly, they tear other women down. And you see it in some of the younger, entitled generation too with this whole Cotton Ceiling bullcrap.

So TLDR, you no doubt experienced male privilege in countless million little ways that you probably would take for granted, even as you hated being identified as male. That doesn't mean it didn't exist for you. As I stated before, if we really want to create a more egalitarian society, and do right by our fellow women, then we must transition our minds as well as our bodies. And yes, as you say, some of us may discover that we don't need to go through as much self-deconstruction and self-deprogramming as others, I have no problems with that line of thinking. But I would be shocked if there was a MTF who didn't need to question at least some of their behavior patterns and thought processes, even just a little. And this isn't meant to be an attack, simply a statement of fact, at how we are deeply influenced by our cultures, even at a non-conscious level.

[Kätzchen]

I sincerely appreciate the dialogue expressed by both of you, Esme and Bex.

I am not sure if it was here on our boards at BFP or in the prior, now-defunct "Dash" community where I have shared this before, but my eldest son, from an very early age, has had (and probably still has) gender dysphoria.

As an young child, my eldest would often dress up in my clothes and feminine articles of lingerie, or use my makeup, lipstick, or even borrow my dress shoes, while exploring his gender identity. And because of this early exploration of gender identity, I sought out an child therapist for my son to go see, to help and provide an safe place for exploration of his gender dysphoria.

I think it's incredibly difficult for those who experience gender dysphoria, no matter what part of the Trans- spectrum one resides. I have always felt that my eldest child leans more toward the female side of the spectrum. But my eldest is also unmistakably male.

Although my son is unmistakably male, I would be remiss to not acknowledge his gender dysphoria, which I believe he still experiences.

I am disclosing this aspect of my eldest's gender dysphoria because as his mother, I have always tried to provide an safe environment for my son to realize that, as his mother, I care about the huge pressures one faces when trying to decide which way to go, so they can come to terms with their gender dysphoria.

Fwiw, I extend my sincere appreciation to members of the Trans- community for sharing your personal experience, concerning your own personal development.

Generally speaking, you are by proxy, in my mind, the Early Adopters of deciding what aspects of Meta-social or Micro-social expectations of socialization you decide to accept or reject.

K.

[Bex-9Tales]

That is so sweet. Thank you for being such an awesome and supportive mother!! I'd like to think that no matter what, the overall trend re: the trans community and acceptance is heading in a positive direction.

[Kätzchen]

Originally Posted by Bex-9Tales

That is so sweet. Thank you for being such an awesome and supportive mother!! I'd like to think that no matter what, the overall trend re: the trans community and acceptance is heading in a positive direction.

Thank you Bex... ... I've tried to always put my children's needs and concern's first, no matter how tough the road has been (past, present or in terms of an future).

I appreciate your candor and Esme's candor too.

[Kätzchen]

Esme? That's incredibly unfair being told off by someone in chat. That's not okay. I hope you realize that that person's behavior is about them (ie, hidden bias, prejudice, etc) and not about you.

And, thank you for disclosing in your post that this happened to you.

Trans-identified individuals are often the targets of this type of prejudicial treatment, as well as other members of the greater LGBTQ community.

It's sad, to me, that given how incredibly hard it is to find our way 'home', that one encounters this in our own community.

"We're all just walking each other home," -- Ram Dass.

That is one of my favorite all time quotes because it's true. We're all just walking each other home.

May you and others find comfort and peace in our community, each and every day.

K.

[Esme nha Maire]

(Laughing) Apologies, Katztchen, you've misunderstood! No-one was being mean to me. It's just that my humour is naturally self-deprecating, and one of my good friends here was a little concerned, because when joking I am often so, that I was putting myself down and so might think myself worthless. I had to reassure her that I do value myself despite my self-deprecating humour!

Originally Posted by Kätzchen

Esme? That's incredibly unfair being told off by someone in chat. That's not okay. I hope you realize that that person's behavior is about them (ie, hidden bias, prejudice, etc) and not about you.

And, thank you for disclosing in your post that this happened to you.

Trans-identified individuals are often the targets of this type of prejudicial treatment, as well as other members of the greater LGBTQ community.

It's sad, to me, that given how incredibly hard it is to find our way 'home', that one encounters this in our own community.

"We're all just walking each other home," -- Ram Dass.

That is one of my favorite all time quotes because it's true. We're all just walking each other home.

May you and others find comfort and peace in our community, each and every day.

K.

[Kätzchen]

Originally Posted by Esme nha Maire

(Laughing) Apologies, Katztchen, you've misunderstood! No-one was being mean to me. It's just that my humour is naturally self-deprecating, and one of my good friends here was a little concerned, because when joking I am often so, that I was putting myself down and so might think myself worthless. I had to reassure her that I do value myself despite my self-deprecating humour!

Thanks Esme for clarifying your situation in chat.

I would like to say that, aside from your disclosure about your style of communication (self deprecating humour), perception plays an critical role in how one processes internal and external types of scenarios we encounter in life and in our own journey to discovering who we are and how we choose to process issues that matter most.

Enjoy your day, Esme and Bex!

K.

[Esme nha Maire]

(Chuckle) Bex, these matters of privilege and socialisation and such are things I've long given much thought to since childhood; it's not a subject area I've only thought about since realising that transitioning is possible, at the age of 28, some 32 years ago for me. I was reading feminist literature since my mid-teens and enthralled by it, because it spoke to me of the problems faced by women - people like me - and possible ways to go about trying to tackle them.

You mention self-deprecating behaviour - yep, I've always been like that (got told off for it in chat here by someone just the other evening!). I asked for raises at work but almost never got them; it just wasn't in my nature to be aggressive about it. Now, it should be noted that there are cisgender guys who are self-deprecating and non-agressive, so I'm not claiming that my more female-typical behaviour in that regard necessarily comes from my femaleness. But it is innate. And guys always have talked over me, ignored me, etc. As also have the more forceful women.

The only thing I can think of where I know male privilege was definitely aimed in my direction was a few occasions where, being the only visually male person in a small group, I was looked to as some kind of authority on whatever the topic was at hand. That mere possession of male visual characteristics didn't make me an oracle - ie: I'd happily state that I had no idea if I had no idea - confused some (disgusted some - what kind of a man was I if I didn't know THAT stuff?!), delighted other women. And as I've noted elsewhere, I was quite often, although not always, tacitly treated as 'one of the girls' in offices I worked in, because, well, psychologically I was one.

Actually I've just recalled one temp job I landed because the temping agency had noticed that very thing. A timber merchants had an office run by a male manager but with otherwise all-female staff, and they had a backlog of work, manually creating invoices, so wanted a temp to help. When the agency put me forward, the timber yard wasn't initially enthusiastic because they were concerned that a male might cause problems with the female staff. They reluctantly agreed, on the understanding that if I wasn't suitable I'd be out the door like a shot. That company actually asked for me back by name on three later occasions when they had backlogs because I could both do the work well and fit in fine with the (other, to me) women there.

In short - I'm sufficiently bright and introspective to be aware of the diversity and subtlety of the ways in which male privilege exists and is accorded or taken for granted by some. But truly - nope, I don't believe I was even accorded male privilege very often (and I can't recall ever benefitting from such - not saying I absolutely may not have, just that if I did, it would have been in very, very minor ways), I just didn't fit societys notions of what a male should be like, because I could not - I'm female, always have been as well as having had the severe bodily dysphoria.

It wasn't a case of 'groking womanthink' with me and some others that I encountered - we were just simply ourselves and, well, female of mind. (shrugs). To me it seems like there's a certain amount of 'magical thinking' on the part of some who think that mentally there always MUST be some difference between cisgender women and transwomen, just as there are with some who think that any such differences that exist must necessarily be ignored.

So far as I can see, with regard to the socialisation and male privilege issues with MTFs, the reality is that there is a spectrum from the one extreme, those who have little trouble transitioning because they always were very female of mind and absorbed societys expectations of females, rather than males; through those who may have to work on things a bit in order to transition socially successfully; to those who just cannot seem to stop acting like a bloke and who are always likely to experience problems being accepted as female because of it.

Sure I haven't experienced menses and all that surrounds that, nor childbirth despite my strong instinct, when younger, to want to bear children. I didnt experience people telling me I couldn't be X when I grew up because aside from wanting to be an astronomer from a young age (fairly acceptable for both genders even back then), I tended not to mention some things that I maybe wanted to be, because I was aware I might get strong disapproval for some of them (like being a dancer in certain female dance troupes!).

But I was aware as a child that girls were commonly directed toward certain types of aspirations and away from others, and thought it horribly unfair, and this well before I'd even heard of feminism. (shrugs). We are all individuals, and MTFs are incredibly diverse in the way they present to the world when young and in their experience of the world when young. The myth that we must ALL necessarily have been unaware of the existence of male privilege in the world, and therefore either be educated to a womans lot in the world or have a sudden moment of illumination once we transition is just simply not so, any more than thinking that we're all just women and that's that just because we say we are. I'm as capable of seeing what's in the world around me as any other girl or woman - that's why feminism appealed to me as a youngster - because I hated the way the world treated people like me - ie: women. So I respectfully disagree with you on that point, Bex.

[Esme nha Maire]

As Bex has said, Kätzchen, that is really nice to hear of a mother being that supportive of a child with gender dysphoria! It does raise one point that may be of interest though - the only thing that gave the GIC any pause for thought about me was that I had no history whatsoever of cross-dressing. This because simply changing clothes wouldn't have eased my dysphoria one iota, and the potential negative of being found out if I did try to acquire womens clothing - nope, wasn't worth it.

It was lovely to be seen as and treated as a woman when I socially reassigned, so such social dysphoria as I had was eased, but the more fundamental problem with me was physical, and my bodily dysphoria didnt go away until I had surgery. Both kinds of dysphoria exist on a spectrum, and it's great that more dysphoric youngsters these days are given the chance to explore what's the best solution for them, rather than having to try to decide between one extreme or the other. Which wasnt an issue for me (never any slightest doubt!) but is for some. Supportive parents are pure gold for gender dysphorics!