2020 Presidential Election

[Martina]

I don't think it's gonna go that way. I am glad for the voices on the left. They remind us of reality in this surreal political landscape. I am not totally neverhillary because I voted for her, but I hated her as a candidate -- with a white hot heat.

I don't know if you can go by me, but I will vote for any not totally sold out Dem. I guess I am a little ideosyncratic in how I determine that. I dislike and would not vote for Corey Booker, but would vote for Biden.

I think there are a lot of lefties like me who don't feel the anti-mainstream Dem heat as strongly after two years of Trump.

[kittygrrl]

i will vote for a moderate democrat in primaries even though i am very left leaning..because i want a candidate that will appeal to a wider variety of midwest voters and those in red states. This is the smarter choice.

[WheatToast]

Originally Posted by kittygrrl

i will vote for a moderate democrat in primaries even though i am very left leaning..because i want a candidate that will appeal to a wider variety of midwest voters and those in red states. This is the smarter choice.

My sentiments exactly.
If Bernie decides to run, more power to him, but he is not a Democrat and if he runs he should proudly run as the Independent he constantly says he is.
He siphoned off votes from Clinton, partly because he refused to leave the race once the Democratic leadership felt he had overstayed his welcome.
It is my understanding he was given permission to run as a Democrat because he agreed to certain terms--like quitting the race when asked to do so, after being allowed to introduce his "radical" ideas to the wider Democratic audience, and to the entire nation.
The problems began as Bernie started ragging on Hillary, then he started complaining that the Democrats were favoring Clinton. When his rhetoric got so intense he threatened a contested DNC convention, it was too much for the Democrats who had given him permission to run under their flag.
While some may say the Democrats broke their initial agreement to treat him fairly, when he became aggressive and antagonistic, Democrats maintain it was he who was being unfair and violating their implicit agreements.

When Putin-backed WikiLeaks published the DNC's stolen e-mail, where HRC's Campaign Chair John Podesta and DNC Chair Debbie Wasserman-Schultz were trash talking Bernie...IT WAS PRIVATE e-mail.
Imagine if you had a house guest who begged you to allow him to stay, then when he started eavesdropping, cutting his toenails on the couch, farting all over the house, complaining about the cooking, starting arguments with the hosts and otherwise being an ungrateful mooch who had clearly overstayed his welcome, so you and your partner started plotting via private e-mail to get him out of the house.
That e-mail might contain a lot of fanciful plans to oust him. It would probably also contain some unfiltered insults that were part of the private brainstorming.
In life, it seems only the most obnoxious guests fail to get the hint when it comes to keeping their end of the bargain and not imposing.
When it becomes a he said/she said--most would agree the owner of the house should prevail.

Back then, once the Democrats realized Trump was a loose cannon and would say or do anything to win, the last thing the Democrats needed was a contentious interloper to distract them from the task at hand. They did not need him to provide the GOP with talking points against Hillary, which he did in spades. His open, vituperative criticism of Hillary and the DNC siphoned votes and created massive in-fighting-- that surprisingly still prevails today between Democrats and those of his fans who are not Russian Bots.
The fact* that the Mueller investigation uncovered proof that the Russians interfered with the electoral process in order to help Trump, Bernie and Jill Stein beat Hillary makes me wonder if Bernie knew that ahead of time. Given his lifelong fascination with the Soviet Union and his irascible nature, who knows?

Note--I may wonder, but I have no desire to sword fight any of his die-hard fans on this site. Like him if you want--but I don't. Like many, I used to love him and valued his leftist agenda as a Senator. To this day, I have no burning desire for him to leave that job.
I just think he fucked the Democrats in the 2016 race, and he thereby contributed to the clusterfuck that gave us Trump.
That makes him dead to me.

Bottom line, I'm a yellow dog Democrat--if the Republicans run the risen Jesus Christ and the Democrats run a yellow dog, I'm going for Old Yeller.



*easy to vet--be my guest

[kittygrrl]

Originally Posted by WheatToast

My sentiments exactly.
If Bernie decides to run, more power to him, but he is not a Democrat and if he runs he should proudly run as the Independent he constantly says he is.
He siphoned off votes from Clinton, partly because he refused to leave the race once the Democratic leadership felt he had overstayed his welcome.
It is my understanding he was given permission to run as a Democrat because he agreed to certain terms--like quitting the race when asked to do so, after being allowed to introduce his "radical" ideas to the wider Democratic audience, and to the entire nation.
The problems began as Bernie started ragging on Hillary, then he started complaining that the Democrats were favoring Clinton. When his rhetoric got so intense he threatened a contested DNC convention, it was too much for the Democrats who had given him permission to run under their flag.
While some may say the Democrats broke their initial agreement to treat him fairly, when he became aggressive and antagonistic, Democrats maintain it was he who was being unfair and violating their implicit agreements.

When Putin-backed WikiLeaks published the DNC's stolen e-mail, where HRC's Campaign Chair John Podesta and DNC Chair Debbie Wasserman-Schultz were trash talking Bernie...IT WAS PRIVATE e-mail.
Imagine if you had a house guest who begged you to allow him to stay, then when he started eavesdropping, cutting his toenails on the couch, farting all over the house, complaining about the cooking, starting arguments with the hosts and otherwise being an ungrateful mooch who had clearly overstayed his welcome, so you and your partner started plotting via private e-mail to get him out of the house.
That e-mail might contain a lot of fanciful plans to oust him. It would probably also contain some unfiltered insults that were part of the private brainstorming.
In life, it seems only the most obnoxious guests fail to get the hint when it comes to keeping their end of the bargain and not imposing.
When it becomes a he said/she said--most would agree the owner of the house should prevail.

Back then, once the Democrats realized Trump was a loose cannon and would say or do anything to win, the last thing the Democrats needed was a contentious interloper to distract them from the task at hand. They did not need him to provide the GOP with talking points against Hillary, which he did in spades. His open, vituperative criticism of Hillary and the DNC siphoned votes and created massive in-fighting-- that surprisingly still prevails today between Democrats and those of his fans who are not Russian Bots.
The fact* that the Mueller investigation uncovered proof that the Russians interfered with the electoral process in order to help Trump, Bernie and Jill Stein beat Hillary makes me wonder if Bernie knew that ahead of time. Given his lifelong fascination with the Soviet Union and his irascible nature, who knows?

Note--I may wonder, but I have no desire to sword fight any of his die-hard fans on this site. Like him if you want--but I don't. Like many, I used to love him and valued his leftist agenda as a Senator. To this day, I have no burning desire for him to leave that job.
I just think he fucked the Democrats in the 2016 race, and he thereby contributed to the clusterfuck that gave us Trump.
That makes him dead to me.

Bottom line, I'm a yellow dog Democrat--if the Republicans run the risen Jesus Christ and the Democrats run a yellow dog, I'm going for Old Yeller.



*easy to vet--be my guest

yes Trump was bad but then so was Bernie..he helped get Trump elected, which i will never forgive him for. He did so much damage to the Democratic party with all his snipes and outright attacks against Hillary and the party, when he had promised he would act with decorum. What a liar. He's a russian loving, non Democrat a LOT like Trump only sneakier about his real agenda. Honeymoon in Russia to visit Kremlin, how cozy..ick...i wouldn't vote for him in a million years. He's reminds me of Trump. He is every bit as nasty as Trump and is totally eaten up with how cool he is and what a large following of willing minions..Where is the difference??!? I didn't see any in 2012 and i don't see any now. He needs to go home and stay out of it.

[dark_crystal]

Originally Posted by Martina

I don't think it's gonna go that way. I am glad for the voices on the left. They remind us of reality in this surreal political landscape. I am not totally neverhillary because I voted for her, but I hated her as a candidate -- with a white hot heat.

I don't know if you can go by me, but I will vote for any not totally sold out Dem. I guess I am a little ideosyncratic in how I determine that. I dislike and would not vote for Corey Booker, but would vote for Biden.

I think there are a lot of lefties like me who don't feel the anti-mainstream Dem heat as strongly after two years of Trump.

I am concerned about Russia. Whether or not people are currently feeling the anti-mainstream heat, Russia will make sure sentiments like these grow legs.

Chapo Traphouse stated multiple times that interest in the Russia investigation was a litmus test for who NOT to support among the Dem candidates.

It's like they are Russian Meddling deniers, despite extensive proof that the Russians used them last time.

This will make just make the left a better weapon.

[Martina]

Kamala now, which I guess we knew. I like her.

[dark_crystal]

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

I am concerned about Russia. Whether or not people are currently feeling the anti-mainstream heat, Russia will make sure sentiments like these grow legs.

Chapo Traphouse stated multiple times that interest in the Russia investigation was a litmus test for who NOT to support among the Dem candidates.

It's like they are Russian Meddling deniers, despite extensive proof that the Russians used them last time.

This will make just make the left a better weapon.

Part of the reason the #NeverHillary situation last year was so terrifying to me was because it was as much IRL than online, in that i had 2 Sanders supporters close to me (both guys, one white/cishet) who hated Hillary Clinton so much that i thought they were about to stroke out over it. Ruining ever happy hour and dinner party and ranting 24/7 on facebook. And i couldn't mute them because i was going to see them.

Anyway, i feel like this lingering hatred is driving the tendency of outlets like Chapo Traphouse to mock and dismiss the Russia situation.

If Russia delivered the election to Trump, Clinton's loss was not because of how badly she sucked. It was not because the Democrats failed to nominate Bernie.

If Trump cheated, then Clinton didn't lose.

Clinton's loss validates the idea that the Democrats need to move further left. If she didn't lose, some of that validation shift back to the center.

We're not supposed to talk abut politics at work, but we have talked about the Russian meddling because it is relevant to our work.

I have colleagues who feel like what Russia did was no big deal.

If Russia changed votes by amplifying and promoting misinformation, they believe that's fair. Critical thinking is available to everyone, they say, and if people had used it, Russia's tricks wouldn't have worked.

I guess that's what Chapo Traphouse thinks, too.

But is critical thinking available to everyone? I don't feel that it is, and part of a librarian's job is to address that.

[Martina]

A lot of us on the left have a broader critique of mainstream Democrats than just our hatred of Clintons. Working people have been betrayed by corporatist Democrats, who contributed to our headlong rush into a society of extreme economic inequality. Without the challenge from the left, Democrats would still be singing their same old song.

There has not been any over correction. I was hearing that BS on NPR today. Today's left are espousing FDR brand policies. The world canted way to the right starting with Reagan. Sensible folk are pointing that out in order to create a more humane system.

I do care about defeating Trump, but I also care about the truth. The idea that the Democratic Party is too far to the left is a joke.

After Trump, these divisions will still be with us, and I am not going to pretend that the Dems have not massively betrayed this country for any single election, even 2020.

[C0LLETTE]

I love the debates in here and I read them avidly. I often read them over and over and over till I understand the point.

Would it be possible to have a rule that a writer not use any "double negatives", surely not use more than one, and just stick to simple declarative sentences.

I figure you'd save time and space and even a simpleton like me would understand what you are saying in half the time.

Just a thought.

[dark_crystal]

Originally Posted by Martina

A lot of us on the left have a broader critique of mainstream Democrats than just our hatred of Clintons. Working people have been betrayed by corporatist Democrats, who contributed to our headlong rush into a society of extreme economic inequality. Without the challenge from the left, Democrats would still be singing their same old song.

There has not been any over correction. I was hearing that BS on NPR today. Today's left are espousing FDR brand policies. The world canted way to the right starting with Reagan. Sensible folk are pointing that out in order to create a more humane system.

I do care about defeating Trump, but I also care about the truth. The idea that the Democratic Party is too far to the left is a joke.

After Trump, these divisions will still be with us, and I am not going to pretend that the Dems have not massively betrayed this country for any single election, even 2020.

I don't think the Democratic party is too far to the left, my post was narrowly focused on why certain media and librarian progressives dismiss the Russian meddling.

There are a lot of things on the table for 2020 that would not even be in the air if Clinton had won.

We would be looking at Obamacare-with-lipstick-on for health care, rather than having a primary field where you have to support some form of single-payer. We would not even be talking about 70% tax rates on the wealthy. We would not be talking about redistribution at all.

I think all critiques of the yuppie wing of the Democratic party are valid.

I think those critiques are weakened when people are so invested in them that they ignore crimes just because the existence of those crimes challenges the critique narrative. That is what i see happening on Chapo Traphouse.

It's like the "tankie" (Tankie = member of a communist group or a "fellow traveller" (sympathiser) who believes fully in the political system of the Soviet Union and defends/defended the actions of the Soviet Union) phenomenon: tankies are so committed to communism that they ignore or defend atrocities because the existence of Soviet history puts a question mark on communism's virtues.

Anyway i was listening to Chapo Traphouse again this morning and they were having a lot of fun with the arrest of Roger Stone, so maybe their position is more nuanced that it seemed when i first heard them discuss it.

Also i do not know if i can promise to write in short declarative sentences. Brevity has never been a strength of mine.

[C0LLETTE]

The word "short" was never mine. I asked for "simple" declarative and fewer double negatives which bog me down. lol.

There's the line that Einstein probably never really uttered: " If you can't explain it simply, you probably don't understand it ".

On the other hand, one Nobel winner probably did say" "If it was simple to explain, I wouldn't have won a Nobel prize for it ".

[homoe]

Howard Schultz, Please Don’t Run for President...........




Really, what qualifications do you have besides being a decent businessman???????