The Public Healthcare Debate

[Vincent]

Originally Posted by theoddz

I know that most of us have long been either in hearty support of, or at least leaning towards, a public single payer health care system here in the United States. For my part, I have always been an avid supporter of the "Medicare for all" idea, even though how it would/could be actually implemented is quite up in the air and open for debate. One thing I have been and will remain adamantly supportive of is that the current profit incentive/motivation needs to be taken completely out of any kind of healthcare system. Every human being has a right to access quality healthcare. But then I saw this:

I have to admit that I really enjoyed Michael Moore's documentary, "Sicko". When it comes to public healthcare and a federally run single payer system, like Medicare, I've thought "ya, this could be done and, with a few tweaks, could be economically viable". Then I saw the above documentary and, I'll have to admit, it made my thinking on this stop dead in its tracks. Now I'm scratching my chin and I really don't know what to think. I just know that what we have now is an utter disaster and is totally unfair and untenable.

Okay, so where is my thinking on this now?? I don't know. I'm going to have to think about this long and hard. So, I'd like some input from the community here. But please, watch the video. I mean, think broadly and fairly about what it presents. What do ya'll think??

~Theo~

We have universal healthcare in Aust and it is funded through taxation but managed by the states.

The Medicare levy helps fund some of the costs of Australia's public health system known as Medicare. The Medicare levy is 2% of your taxable income, in addition to the tax you pay on your taxable income. ... The Medicare levy is collected from you in the same way as income tax.

we also have subsidised medicine in Aust.Medicare

Medicare came in when I was about 13.Before that we had private healthcare,my father worked 2 jobs so we had top cover.

It would be political suicide to end medicare here in Aust,although they have undermined it, by stealth underfunding it,also a medical degree in a private hospital in Aust,is worthless,as all the top surgions work in public hospitals.
Private hospitals here are hopeless and I always try and avoid private health providers,they mainly do cosmetic surgery.
Yes tobacco is very exspensive here,result being most people gave up smoking,including myself.

Having been to the USA twice,I understand why the virus has hit so hard,a very unhealthy population,with serious health issues,but are forced to work,as healthcare is connected to work.My Ex was also amazed when she came here,at the quality of our food,now that's coming from an American not me.

My generation is much healthier,than my parents,so yes preventative healthcare does work.Imagine your military budget spent on the citizens.

The USA has a military budget,the size of the world combined,you kinda can only blow up the planet once.

Is medecare perfect-No,we have to work within the framework of capitalisim.

And he also never mentioned Cuba,who actually have the best healthcare in the world,which is why they send doctors not weapons to war torn countries.

I hope this has been informative,not patriotic,as I see myself as a world citizen.

[~ocean]

I've experienced if you pay for the higher health insurance your deff. get more. The doctors are better, ( so they say ) you get better meds., more medical essentials , this is one that piss' me off really bad ~ when hospitalized the food and accommodations are different. The better the plan the more you get. It's all shamefull. There will never be equality. Greed beats equality every time .

[Kelt]

Thank you for posting this video Theo, my thinking is in line with what they are saying. There are many hurdles to getting anything resembling universal health care in the states and I believe one of the biggest obstacles will be the American concepts of "freedom" to do whatever we want with our own lives free from restrictions and regulations. "Individuals" will want to continue to behave in ways that undermine personal and public health while expecting care for no additional expense. I think some of the Euro examples of accountability would be a good step, but in the states?

We saw how the conversation began during the primaries where everybody though Medicare for all was a great idea as long as the loudest voices just kept shouting about FREE everything. Then when Warren got her feet held to the fire and tried to start explaining costs, it quickly started to lose its shine.

I believe that our medical services for pay system is horribly broken and has no business calling itself "Health care". I see no health or care involved, what I see is an industry build on the promotion of disease and the patching up of symptoms and no regard for prevention or responsibility. That said I have no solutions or even good ideas, we have a three tier system that is broken and needs a complete reboot. I keep asking myself who is going to pay and how?

I do think taking the profit motive out would create an opportunity to change priorities but then we have the same question of "who runs it?" I look forward to seeing what others here have to say because I'm stumped.

[Gráinne]

For starters, I believe all ads for pharmaceuticals should be banned. A tremendous amount of money is spent on TV and magazine ads, and guess where that comes from?

All health care providers should be required to openly state their prices, just like a fast-food menu board. Let competition do its work; if hospital A costs $$ and hospital B costs $$$$ for equal services, hospital B is going out of business. None of this "in network" and "out of network" stuff. One reason costs are so out of control is it's impossible to get a straight answer on how much anything costs. Medical providers shouldn't be able to charge some astronomical sum simply because insurance will cover it.

I believe in theory in interstate insurance, but to make that work and prevent massive fraud, I've little idea. Ultimately, the entire insurance business is hugely bloated and inefficient, but I have too little knowledge on how to possibly reform it.

[theoddz]

I hear what you all are saying about how the expense of such a nationwide single payer system would almost be just plain out impractical and, in the end, disastrous. I do think, however, that removing some of the profit incentive would drive overall costs down.

Even in traditional business models, costs always go up when you have middlemen (insurance companies) involved. Could that be where the first slice of a type of precision "trimming down" could begin?? At least, in theory?? Insurance companies seem to be the base cause of a lot of costs going up. They are, by and large, public companies, so they have shareholders to appease, therefore, they are in it to make as much money as they possibly can. In this case, it's at the expense of another person's health and/or well being. That's where the profit motive lies, in large part. I think everyone would agree that every living organism on this planet has the drive to live, and we humans also feel that the quality of our health determines a lot of the quality of our lives. What person wouldn't do everything and anything to just live?? What would YOU sell, bargain, beg, steal, lie or cheat for, if for nothing else, life?? Just to keep taking one breath after another without screaming in pain?? C'mon, be honest. This FOR PROFIT health "system" that we have, here in the US, has a sincerely captive audience. It isn't hard to understand. Yet we will give anything, ANYTHING to anyone who will help us live to see another sunrise, even if we are flat broke, living in a cardboard box under a bridge with nothing to eat but dirt.

Leveling the economic playing field in the health care industry is going to mean taking the huge profits away from the insurance companies, and they might just have to reinvent another business model that they can survive under. Maybe get rid of the shareholders and replace them with folks who really do have some skin in the game....like maybe the patients they are charged to take care of/insure?? I don't know what the answer is, but this much I do know: Something is going to have to give if our entire democracy is going to survive. We ALL do better when the interests of the public good is served, so we've got to start with one measure of common sense and make sure that ALL of our citizenry, not just the ones with $$, can just stay alive.

I've gotten a bit jaded, over the years, because I've worked in the US health care industry (both private and public sectors), and one of the big reasons I switched to the public sector (VA - US gov't) is because I saw what the real conditions were in the private/for profit systems, back when they brought in the concept of "Managed Care". We providers used to cynically call it "mangled care". I loved the VA system, overall, because it didn't require that a patient have enough $$ to get care. All that mattered was that that person served our country and put his/her life on the line for his/her countrymen/women. We treated all Veteran patients equally, no matter what. They are ALL precious lives to us. Oh, and something like 40% of us are Veterans, ourselves, so that helped. I once heard someone comment that, "if you want to see what socialized (I assume they were meaning government run) medicine would look like in this country, take a look at the VA." I thought that was kind of interesting, because it's widely recognized, according to consistent polling, that the VA Health Care System has held the top rating in patient satisfaction (of all US health systems) for many years now. The VA was one of just a few systems that brought about using computerized patient records/charting that streamlined VA care and reduced costs, nationwide. It also served to improve the quality and timeliness of care, also. Overall, it is a very impressive system, and I'm very proud to have worked in it, serving my fellow Vets.

I am so thankful to you all who have shared your thoughts here. I'd also like to extend a hand out to every and anyone else here to throw out your ideas and thoughts about this here, too. BFP is, admittedly, a microcosm of our LGBTQ communities, I think, and we all come from various walks of life, occupations and arenas. Something someone says here, or other places, might end up reaching the right ears and create constructive conversations in other places, with other ears. An idea is an idea, you know!! I've gotten a lot more to think about now, thanks, again, to those who have shared. I tip my hat to ya'll!!!

~Theo~

[GeorgiaMa'am]

This will be controversial, I know, but please read my entire post if you care to respond to my post.

I do not believe that every person has the right to medical care. People have the right to what they can afford in this country, everything from shoes to food to justice. We may not like it, but that is the capitalist system we have set up in the U.S.

That said, I believe every person deserves medical care. We cannot call ourselves decent human beings if we don't provide basic health care to everyone that we can afford to. Somebody has to pay for it - but if we are good, humanitarian folk, then we should be willing to pay for it.

Even if we're not all good, humanitarian folk, we should recognize that it is in our own self interest to provide health care for everyone. This is one of the things that Americans will have to be convinced of in order to provide universal health care. I used to work with an otherwise perfectly reasonable, decent woman who felt, "I had to work hard to get a job where I get good healthcare. Why shouldn't everyone else have to do the same?" (I'll just mention that the numbers don't work out with this reasoning - there will always be people who slide to the bottom of the economy, and no matter how hard they work, or don't work, they will never get a job with great medical benefits.) What I said to her instead was, "You have to think of it from the point of enlightened self-interest." If only some of us have health care and others don't, the unhealthy ones will make the rest of us unhealthy. We want ALL people to be vaccinated against transmissible diseases so they don't spread. Likewise, we should want all people with the flu to be treated, so they don't spread it around. Consider the plight of a grocery store worker, with no health care and no sick days. They go to work even when they're sick, because if they don't work, they don't get paid - and these low-paid workers can't afford health care with no insurance. Yet, they are handling your and my fresh produce, trimming our meat, cutting slices of cheese in the deli and all the while transferring their germs to everyone who shops at that store.

Re: Insurance Companies - they are EVIL. They will do anything at all to avoid having to pay a claim. It doesn't matter if they are in the right or not, what matters to them is: can they wiggle their way out of paying? I have worked for insurance companies and I know how deceptive and underhanded they are, on a regular everyday basis. Anyway, this is probably best discussed in a new thread, if anyone cares to. But insurance in its current form, for all of the reasons stated previously in this thread and others, is a huge impediment to getting affordable health care in this country.

[Vincent]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaMa'am

This will be controversial, I know, but please read my entire post if you care to respond to my post.

I do not believe that every person has the right to medical care. People have the right to what they can afford in this country, everything from shoes to food to justice. We may not like it, but that is the capitalist system we have set up in the U.S.

That said, I believe every person deserves medical care. We cannot call ourselves decent human beings if we don't provide basic health care to everyone that we can afford to. Somebody has to pay for it - but if we are good, humanitarian folk, then we should be willing to pay for it.

Even if we're not all good, humanitarian folk, we should recognize that it is in our own self interest to provide health care for everyone. This is one of the things that Americans will have to be convinced of in order to provide universal health care. I used to work with an otherwise perfectly reasonable, decent woman who felt, "I had to work hard to get a job where I get good healthcare. Why shouldn't everyone else have to do the same?" (I'll just mention that the numbers don't work out with this reasoning - there will always be people who slide to the bottom of the economy, and no matter how hard they work, or don't work, they will never get a job with great medical benefits.) What I said to her instead was, "You have to think of it from the point of enlightened self-interest." If only some of us have health care and others don't, the unhealthy ones will make the rest of us unhealthy. We want ALL people to be vaccinated against transmissible diseases so they don't spread. Likewise, we should want all people with the flu to be treated, so they don't spread it around. Consider the plight of a grocery store worker, with no health care and no sick days. They go to work even when they're sick, because if they don't work, they don't get paid - and these low-paid workers can't afford health care with no insurance. Yet, they are handling your and my fresh produce, trimming our meat, cutting slices of cheese in the deli and all the while transferring their germs to everyone who shops at that store.

Re: Insurance Companies - they are EVIL. They will do anything at all to avoid having to pay a claim. It doesn't matter if they are in the right or not, what matters to them is: can they wiggle their way out of paying? I have worked for insurance companies and I know how deceptive and underhanded they are, on a regular everyday basis. Anyway, this is probably best discussed in a new thread, if anyone cares to. But insurance in its current form, for all of the reasons stated previously in this thread and others, is a huge impediment to getting affordable health care in this country.

I just want to add,Aust does have private health insurance as well as universal healthcare,although my cousin who is very well off gay man they both had top private health cober,his partner got prostate cancer,out of pocket was $16,000,he now is an avid advocate for free health care.
I am poor,I had ovarian cancer,I got the cadilac of treatment in the best cancer clinic in the country 100% free.But I have paid my taxes all my life from working,so its not actually free,but who misses 1.5 % of tax,it is morphed into tax you pay.without it,I would be dead now,I was told I would have died within 6 mths.should I be dead,because I got sick?
If so,I do not believe we are so called civilised.

BUT medecare will not cover my trans surgeries at all,which means we are dicrimated as Transgender treatment for those wanting it is surgery.
Medecare also will not cover cosmetic surgery,all of that is in private sector of our health system.

[Gráinne]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaMa'am

This will be controversial, I know, but please read my entire post if you care to respond to my post.

I do not believe that every person has the right to medical care. People have the right to what they can afford in this country, everything from shoes to food to justice. We may not like it, but that is the capitalist system we have set up in the U.S.

That said, I believe every person deserves medical care. We cannot call ourselves decent human beings if we don't provide basic health care to everyone that we can afford to. Somebody has to pay for it - but if we are good, humanitarian folk, then we should be willing to pay for it.

Even if we're not all good, humanitarian folk, we should recognize that it is in our own self interest to provide health care for everyone. This is one of the things that Americans will have to be convinced of in order to provide universal health care. I used to work with an otherwise perfectly reasonable, decent woman who felt, "I had to work hard to get a job where I get good healthcare. Why shouldn't everyone else have to do the same?" (I'll just mention that the numbers don't work out with this reasoning - there will always be people who slide to the bottom of the economy, and no matter how hard they work, or don't work, they will never get a job with great medical benefits.) What I said to her instead was, "You have to think of it from the point of enlightened self-interest." If only some of us have health care and others don't, the unhealthy ones will make the rest of us unhealthy. We want ALL people to be vaccinated against transmissible diseases so they don't spread. Likewise, we should want all people with the flu to be treated, so they don't spread it around. Consider the plight of a grocery store worker, with no health care and no sick days. They go to work even when they're sick, because if they don't work, they don't get paid - and these low-paid workers can't afford health care with no insurance. Yet, they are handling your and my fresh produce, trimming our meat, cutting slices of cheese in the deli and all the while transferring their germs to everyone who shops at that store.

Re: Insurance Companies - they are EVIL. They will do anything at all to avoid having to pay a claim. It doesn't matter if they are in the right or not, what matters to them is: can they wiggle their way out of paying? I have worked for insurance companies and I know how deceptive and underhanded they are, on a regular everyday basis. Anyway, this is probably best discussed in a new thread, if anyone cares to. But insurance in its current form, for all of the reasons stated previously in this thread and others, is a huge impediment to getting affordable health care in this country.

*clapping*

The bolded is exactly the scenario I fear at work. Although these days we have to get our temperature taken before we can clock in, I have seen many coworkers come in with non-contagious things that make them feel miserable, simply because they can't afford to miss a day (and/or can't afford the doctor). One was a woman undergoing chemotherapy who developed severe edema because she came back to work too soon after surgery.
(Our boss tried to screw around with her FEMA benefits; a little bird told her about a local attorney used by said bird who made Jaws look like a tuna. Friend must have name-dropped the attorney to our boss, as it got fixed right quick.)
In my own life, I have had to go to the free clinic, and I have also had the best care available. My feeling is that free clinics and the like are crucial. I am not saying staff them with quacks and give substandard care; in fact, I believe in a massive push for universal preventative care, especially for children. It may sound cold, but I think resources should go firstly for prevention. If you choose to smoke or drink yourself to death, that's on you and I don't want to pay for your choices.