Breeder and other words we use to hurt our own.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I love how you take it out of context and start a thread about it.

You want to drag this conversation over to another thread now?

Honestly, if you don't think little girls are groomed for this shit from before they can even talk, I really don't understand how or why you'd jump into a conversation about that exact topic

It wasn't a dis on people who have kids...it was used as a dis for how girls are groomed by a sexist culture.

I heard you. I got your feelings on the topic. Had that been the way I used it in the post, I would agree with you. But that's not how I used it.


Dylan

Can you take into consideration that it is NOT OK for you to say that? Can you not listen and hear us say

It's offensive?

Can you step out of Dylan zone for one fucking second and hear this?

You don't get to tell us how to feel about a word that has been used on us as defensive, derogatory or insulting.

Damn it Dylan..

I know you gotta know better..

It's not about you you you and your god damn sentence structure and how you see fit.

As a guy, it's even worse for you to come up in here and JUSTIFY that term.

Damn dude...

FFS listen.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Can you take into consideration that it is NOT OK for you to say that? Can you not listen and hear us say

It's offensive?

Can you step out of Dylan zone for one fucking second and hear this?

You don't get to tell us how to feel about a word that has been used on us as defensive, derogatory or insulting.

Damn it Dylan..

I know you gotta know better..

It's not about you you you and your god damn sentence structure and how you see fit.

As a guy, it's even worse for you to come up in here and JUSTIFY that term.

Damn dude...

FFS listen.

FFS Snow, I heard you. Both of you.

And FFS Snow, could you hear a word in context instead of hearing it as you want?

Give me another word, Snow.

What other word denotes the same way women are groomed?

Give me another one, and I'll use it. That has the same connotation. Reproducer? Doesn't have the same connotation.

Give me something that has the same connotation as puppy mill. Because that IS how the patriarchy sets up and grooms girls/women.


Dylan

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Dylan

FFS Snow, I heard you. Both of you.

And FFS Snow, could you hear a word in context instead of hearing it as you want?

Give me another word, Snow.

What other word denotes the same way women are groomed?

Give me another one, and I'll use it. That has the same connotation. Reproducer? Doesn't have the same connotation.

Give me something that has the same connotation as puppy mill. Because that IS how the patriarchy sets up and grooms girls/women.


Dylan

When I was pregnant..

I was refered to as pregnant..

Not bred.

How about that

Impregnated..

Pregnant.

Last time I checked that was a word.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

When I was pregnant..

I was refered to as pregnant..

Not bred.

How about that

Impregnated..

Pregnant.

Last time I checked that was a word.

And after you were pregnant?

Pregnant is a certain stage of the reproduction cycle

It's not the same connotation

And let's not forget that once women are past the age of reproducing/carrying on the human race, they're no longer seen as attractive or useful to the patriarchy (unless they're the caretaking, doting grandmother who once again is dealing with children).


Dylan

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Dylan

And after you were pregnant?

Pregnant is a certain stage of the reproduction cycle

It's not the same connotation

And let's not forget that once women are past the age of reproducing/carrying on the human race, they're no longer seen as attractive or useful to the patriarchy (unless they're the caretaking, doting grandmother who once again is dealing with children).


Dylan

After I became MOM...

I will gladly become MOMMA-SON

I don't use gramma.

Yanno Dylan once again, some of us wanted kids. It wasn't shoved down our throats, we just wanted them.. I can't tell you how much I wanted my kids. IT HURT. Every single one, once I knew them I would give my life for them.

That's what you ain't hearing Dylan, that as a MOTHER, you insisting on using the word is humiliating and ugly.

FUCK your points of view..

Respect that a handful of women keep asking you to listen, can you just listen and give us that much respect?

Not that fucking hard Dylan, I do it for you ,and would if you asked -and have.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Dylan

And after you were pregnant?

Pregnant is a certain stage of the reproduction cycle

It's not the same connotation

And let's not forget that once women are past the age of reproducing/carrying on the human race, they're no longer seen as attractive or useful to the patriarchy (unless they're the caretaking, doting grandmother who once again is dealing with children).


Dylan

How about if we say parent? mother?

I wasn't bred...I'm not a cow.

I became pregnant. I am a mother. I parent. Any of those is better, at least to me.

I agree that women are judged, in part, by whether or not they have children. We are also judged, in part, by our physical appearance, how much money we make or have, who we partner with. the class we are born into, the car we drive, the clothes we wear and more.

For me, the central problem isn't that women are raised to be mothers or measure their worth by their sexual appeal to others (although I have a problem with both of those things)...it's that we aren't generally raised to treasure our own individuality - no matter what it looks like or where it takes us.

[Spirit Dancer]

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Spirit Dancer

/derail
I wish this was true for all mothers.

[Lady Pamela]

Even in the dictionary it reads:

breed·er (brdr)
n.
1. A person who breeds animals or plants.
2. An animal kept to produce offspring.
3. Offensive Slang A heterosexual person.
4. A source or cause: social injustice breeder of revolutions.


Right here it clearing shows many forms of how it is offensive.
And a huge amount of offensive sides are not even listed.

The word implies we are like cattle...Held to reproduce only.

And degrades our parenthood.

I for one was not raised to breed.
My mother never taught me that was what my adulthood looked like.
I chose my mothering. And adore and cherrish it.

[SuperFemme]

I really don't want this thread to turn into what Dylan thinks about how women are groomed. I get what hy is saying and I hear hym.

I started this thread because just seeing the word upset me. It has been used about me in conjunction with how "girly girl" I am on several occasions. As if being a Queer Woman is a balancing act of being Queer but not too "Girly".

I don't think I will ever change my girliness or being a Femme. I wonder why that is frowned upon?

Raising kids with a mom, a dad and a partner feels subversive to some degree. More people to love and shape a child and I get to be *me*. It took me a long time to be brave enough to do that.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by JustJo

How about if we say parent? mother?

I wasn't bred...I'm not a cow.

I became pregnant. I am a mother. I parent. Any of those is better, at least to me.

I agree that women are judged, in part, by whether or not they have children. We are also judged, in part, by our physical appearance, how much money we make or have, who we partner with. the class we are born into, the car we drive, the clothes we wear and more.

For me, the central problem isn't that women are raised to be mothers or measure their worth by their sexual appeal to others (although I have a problem with both of those things)...it's that we aren't generally raised to treasure our own individuality - no matter what it looks like or where it takes us.

Do you think women are groomed to be mothers for their own selves or do you think women are groomed to be mothers for the benefit of men?

Do you think motherhood is so regaled when a man is NOT involved?

Because when there's NOT a man around, those women (single women) are seen (STILL...in 2010) as whores and or 'untouchable' by men, because they have another man's child.

So, do you think girls are taught to be mothers (and that's not the word I want, because 'mothers' are usually regaled [unless they're single mothers]...mother does not have the same connotation as what I was trying to convey in how the patriarchy treats/grooms girls)

I'm not talking about how I (me,me,me) or you or women see parenting/motherhood/etc...I'm talking about patriarchy and how little girls are taught from a young age that their worth is tied to their sexuality and ability to create children. And because I likened that whole post to FLDS and the grooming that takes place in that arena...breed is exactly the right word.

Because I don't see the patriarchal grooming of (girl) children in this society as ANY different than FLDS society, and that's EXACTLY how women are treated in that patriarchal society.


Dylan

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Do you think women are groomed to be mothers for their own selves or do you think women are groomed to be mothers for the benefit of men?

Do you think motherhood is so regaled when a man is NOT involved?

Because when there's NOT a man around, those women (single women) are seen (STILL...in 2010) as whores and or 'untouchable' by men, because they have another man's child.

So, do you think girls are taught to be mothers (and that's not the word I want, because 'mothers' are usually regaled [unless they're single mothers]...mother does not have the same connotation as what I was trying to convey in how the patriarchy treats/grooms girls)

I'm not talking about how I (me,me,me) or you or women see parenting/motherhood/etc...I'm talking about patriarchy and how little girls are taught from a young age that their worth is tied to their sexuality and ability to create children. And because I likened that whole post to FLDS and the grooming that takes place in that arena...breed is exactly the right word.

Because I don't see the patriarchal grooming of (girl) children in this society as ANY different than FLDS society, and that's EXACTLY how women are treated in that patriarchal society.


Dylan

It's a damn good thang I don't and have never listened to shit like that..

It may have been shoved down my face by things around me, it just did not ring true for ME.

I am the bomb fucking diggity cause I am a single mom, have been, and still don't need no damn body as I continue to do so.

I was taught I can do anything on my own.

[JustJo]

Well I'm gonna have to change colors here so I can go point to point...because I think you raise some interesting questions...
Let me start first by saying that, as much as I love the warm sentiments of motherhood...I was NOT raised to be a mother. I was raised by a narcissist who made it very clear to me from a very young age that motherhood ruined her life, her future and her happiness. I was raised to believe that motherhood was one step above slavery, and the last thing in the world I should ever desire.

Originally Posted by Dylan

Do you think women are groomed to be mothers for their own selves or do you think women are groomed to be mothers for the benefit of men?

20 years ago I would have agreed with you that women were groomed to be mothers primarily to support the status quo. Anymore? No. The largest growing (I believe) stratum of new mothers are older, first time, single mothers - many of whom have decided to stop waiting for Mr. Right and just start their own family on their own terms. I personally know many of women in this cohort - and they are mothering purely for their own reasons and because it's what their own heart desires.

Do you think motherhood is so regaled when a man is NOT involved?

Because when there's NOT a man around, those women (single women) are seen (STILL...in 2010) as whores and or 'untouchable' by men, because they have another man's child.

Not in my experience.l I am a single mother. I did, eventually and big mistake, marry my son's father for a few years thinking it would be best for my son. No one ever called or treated me like a whore, and I was far from untouchable by men. In fact, I had several volunteers to step into my ready made family. Yes, there are some men who avoid single moms...but honestly, not many.

So, do you think girls are taught to be mothers (and that's not the word I want, because 'mothers' are usually regaled [unless they're single mothers]...mother does not have the same connotation as what I was trying to convey in how the patriarchy treats/grooms girls)

I'm not talking about how I (me,me,me) or you or women see parenting/motherhood/etc...I'm talking about patriarchy and how little girls are taught from a young age that their worth is tied to their sexuality and ability to create children. And because I likened that whole post to FLDS and the grooming that takes place in that arena...breed is exactly the right word.

Acutally, I think women today are measured more by their ability to be a trophy wife than a mother. You don't need breast implants, botox injections and a lifestyle lift to be a mother. But that's what's getting hammered into us now. Again, 20 years ago I would have agreed that a woman's ability to have children was key. Anymore, I think her ability to fit into a size 3 is more important to much of mainstream society.

I think we've gone past the "woman as mother" stage in our culture and moved into "woman as perpetually youthful hottie" instead. I don't see it as an improvement, but no one consulted me.

Because I don't see the patriarchal grooming of (girl) children in this society as ANY different than FLDS society, and that's EXACTLY how women are treated in that patriarchal society.


Dylan

I do hear what you're saying Dylan...I just feel like you're talking about a 20 year old dynamic.

[Random]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Because when there's NOT a man around, those women (single women) are seen (STILL...in 2010) as whores and or 'untouchable' by men, because they have another man's child.

Dylan

I have to STRONGLY disagree with this misandrist statement...

I know for a fact that this is not true..

Both my mother and myself we *unwed mothers* and I know DAMN well that my father didn't think my mother was a whore or untouchable.. I know the same thing about my ex husband...

Remember.. there are NO absolutes in live.. not ONE group of ANYTHING/ANYONE feels the same way, simply because they belong to that group....

Sorry for the derail.. but I can't sit still and let all guys be tared with the same feather...

[Gayla]

I've heard it used by the (straight) child free by choice people in reference to other straight people who have children. I've heard it used by, mostly, gay men in reference to straight people. It's the term we yelled back at the protester who were yelling "Fags!" at us when our float went by. In these circumstances, it's been used against men and women equally and usually towards heterosexual couples.

Granted, this was all probably 20+ years ago and I'm not sure I've seen it used since except on rare occasion. And when I do it hear it used in that way that is meant to insult, I'm horrified that we used it back then. In our somewhat limited defense, there were not many queers with children in our limited social circle at the time.

I do have a friend who refers to his siblings as the "breeders" of the family because he has something like 14 nieces and nephews . In this particular case, he uses it with affection because he is very glad to have those kids in his life. And yes, he uses the phrase to their faces.

I think that may be the only time I've heard it used without offensive intent.

[SassyLeo]

In the 80's/90's when my dad came out in SF, breeder was a word I heard ALL THE TIME. Not specifically in company of family or friends (though I am sure it happened) but just out in the world. Especially in the Castro on days when a demonstration was taking place on the corner or during Pride. Again, this was 15 to 20 years ago. Even though I was a teenager at the time, I knew what it meant and that it was used as a derogatory term aimed at someone who had just said something homophobic or in "gay boy talk" as I call it or caddy, gossipy talk - (again years ago...)

I do not use the word and rarely hear it these days in my world. I have never heard the word being used in a positive way.

In terms of women being bred to have children, I agree with the history of patriarchy in the world...in old traditional, religious cultures, women get married and have children. It is what they believe women are "to do". This is a -generalization-. I'm not saying all women are this way and all cultures are this way, etc.

The last century has changed and shifted what women's roles are, specifically in more lieberal countries, obviously. I think women are raised to make their own choices about children. We are not forced to have them. We also can have them without a husband or partner. We can adopt. We have choices.

My parents had very traditional and incredibly dysfunctional and mostly pretty crappy upbringings and they set out to do pretty much the exact opposite with me.

I decided many years ago that I did not want to have children. A personal choice. I've always been upfront with my parents about not wanting children of my own and they support me either way. I NEVER felt pressure to get married, not get married, have kids, not have kids, I've always been told I have choices.

Of course, my parents are queer...so I realize I am kind of an anomaly

And I have friends who have children and I think it is wonderful! I admire their love and dedication. I love being a pseudo auntie. I watched one of my best friends through her pregnancy and birth of her daughter. It was amazing. And if someone had deemed her a breeder from that incredible experience... well, that's awful.

Of course, when my grandfather died a couple of years ago, I went with my parents to his funeral with a ton of family I hadn't seen in years. One of the first things out of my 78 year old great-uncle's mouth was: 'hey you are the last of the <family name>; how old are you honey? thinking about kids anytime soon?'

[Oneida]

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

One of the first things out of my 75 year old great-uncle's mouth was: 'hey you are the last of the <family name>; how old are you honey? thinking about kids anytime soon?'

When I came out to my family, I was around 24 years old. One of my Uncles told me he was said because he really thought I would have been a wonderful mother.

I can't remember what happened yesterday, but some comments live forever in our memories, don't they.

[WolfyOne]

Growing up in Chicago and hanging out in bars back then, I heard the word often. Usually though it was to describe heterosexuals that picked on homosexuals. So, I never thought about it being demeaning then. After reading posts here, I understand where all of you are coming from. Funny how the definition of a word and the way it's used over the last 30 years has changed so much.

SF thanks for enlightening me on a word I haven't heard in ages nor use in my everyday vocabulary.

[SuperFemme]

Maybe the change in times has come around in that I don't hate straight people per se? I think *my* derogatory word for straight person is *right wing* these days. Which is probably just as side ways considering that I go to church and am offending all Christians sideways.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Dylan

FFS Snow, I heard you. Both of you.

And FFS Snow, could you hear a word in context instead of hearing it as you want?

Give me another word, Snow.

What other word denotes the same way women are groomed?

Give me another one, and I'll use it. That has the same connotation. Reproducer? Doesn't have the same connotation.

Give me something that has the same connotation as puppy mill. Because that IS how the patriarchy sets up and grooms girls/women.


Dylan

Puppy mill? Really?

I thought we were to have 2.3 children only and to stay gorgeous for our men. Who would have the energy to clean, work, and be sexy with THAT many kids?