Butch & Transmen Friendship: Mutual Support

Strappie · 06-13-2010, 10:41 PM

Hey Guys,

Please take my words not always literally for I am not the best at putting words into writing like some of you so eloquently do.

I am asking this from my heart and not being an ass in anyway shape or form. I'm not so "up" on my trans knowledge so please bare with me while I come up with words that do not offend anyone. And please believe me when I say this is from my heart because one of my best buds is Post-Op (he says he thinks we were separated at birth) lol

ok so here it goes....

Over at the Dash site I started a thread pertaining to the Olivia Cruise: in regards of Trans folks not being welcome on a Olivia Cruise. I wanted to ask the question but I stopped before because my previous questions stirred up some not so happy comments from folks including the owner.

My question is this, How are they to know if some random Joe Blow who has never been through a transition get on the Cruise? For real.. I'm not trying to stir up shit trust me. Can't any male just hop on the ship? How are they to know who transitioned and who hasn't? I want all my friends gay-lesbian-trans-tg-ect... to be able to enjoy the things I enjoy not because of who I am or who they are. I want equal rights for ALL.

They would have to let "everyone" on the ship? No? How could they not, are they really going to ask me if I'm really gay? Will they ask you what you are? I don't know ... I think I should make a phone call.

Corkey · 06-13-2010, 10:47 PM

Strappie, personally I don't care about the dash site, or what they do or don't do, I have no vested interest in that site. I know that this site and the owners are very inclusive and would not in any way be divisive to the membership. So what the owner of the other site does or doesn't do in no way effects me or mine. And take your time to express yourself, I'm in no hurry.

Strappie · 06-13-2010, 10:59 PM

Corkey,

Thanks for not taking my words wrong. I find it a bit absurd that they would allow Men to go on the Cruise. They might as well open it up if they do that. I guess at this point I'm frustrated with the decision they made because I do know some do not feel it would be a welcoming place for them. I've heard a couple of times, "why would I support a function that is for "women" only.

Corkey · 06-13-2010, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strappie

Corkey,

Thanks for not taking my words wrong. I find it a bit absurd that they would allow Men to go on the Cruise. They might as well open it up if they do that. I guess at this point I'm frustrated with the decision they made because I do know some do not feel it would be a welcoming place for them. I've heard a couple of times, "why would I support a function that is for "women" only.

I totally understand your concern, but I understand that for this particular cruse they are allowing FTM's and Transmen on the joy ride. Personally I wouldn't go on an Olivia cruse as it isn't my cuppa, but I would go on a Princess cruse to Alaska if given the opportunity, and of course Ami would be right by my side.

DapperButch · 06-13-2010, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strappie

Hey Guys,

Please take my words not always literally for I am not the best at putting words into writing like some of you so eloquently do.

I am asking this from my heart and not being an ass in anyway shape or form. I'm not so "up" on my trans knowledge so please bare with me while I come up with words that do not offend anyone. And please believe me when I say this is from my heart because one of my best buds is Post-Op (he says he thinks we were separated at birth) lol

ok so here it goes....

Over at the Dash site I started a thread pertaining to the Olivia Cruise: in regards of Trans folks not being welcome on a Olivia Cruise. I wanted to ask the question but I stopped before because my previous questions stirred up some not so happy comments from folks including the owner.

My question is this, How are they to know if some random Joe Blow who has never been through a transition get on the Cruise? For real.. I'm not trying to stir up shit trust me. Can't any male just hop on the ship? How are they to know who transitioned and who hasn't? I want all my friends gay-lesbian-trans-tg-ect... to be able to enjoy the things I enjoy not because of who I am or who they are. I want equal rights for ALL.

They would have to let "everyone" on the ship? No? How could they not, are they really going to ask me if I'm really gay? Will they ask if you? I don't know ... I think I should make a phone call.

Hey, Strappie. I am curious to know this as well. Does Olivia cruises only let cissexed gay females on the cruises? Do they let any other group on? MTFs? FTMs? Cis gay males? Cis straight males? Cis straight females? (I am pretty sure the answer is yes to the last one..straight cis females can come).

I would really like to know. Not b/c I am planning on going, but b/c I would like to know.

Also, if it is typcially only gay females, did the admin of the dash site may a special request that EVERYONE on her web site be able to attend?

Let us (or at least me!) know if you make that phone call/pose that question on the site, what you find out.

Kosmo · 06-13-2010, 11:01 PM

Strappie,

I don't know who Olivia markets their cruises to now. I know how they initially did. They probably have a website you can check.

Strappie · 06-13-2010, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Hey, Strappie. I am curious to know this as well. Does Olivia cruises only let cissexed gay females on the cruises? Do they let any other group on? MTFs? FTMs? Cis gay males? Cis straight males? Cis straight females? (I am pretty sure the answer is yes to the last one..straight cis females can come).

I would really like to know. Not b/c I am planning on going, but b/c I would like to know.

Also, if it is typcially only gay females, did the admin of the dash site may a special request that EVERYONE on her web site be able to attend?

Let us (or at least me!) know if you make that phone call/pose that question on the site, what you find out.

Dapper,

I will call Olivia Cruise myself tomorrow.. for now I need to settle my thoughts and get some sleep. 5am comes fast at Midnight!

JustJo · 06-14-2010, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Hey, Strappie. I am curious to know this as well. Does Olivia cruises only let cissexed gay females on the cruises? Do they let any other group on? MTFs? FTMs? Cis gay males? Cis straight males? Cis straight females? (I am pretty sure the answer is yes to the last one..straight cis females can come).

Just peeking in...

I can answer one teeny piece of this. Olivia does allow straight cis women on the cruise. A strongly feminist (and celibate by choice) friend goes on these cruises because she prefers the time outside of the company of men.

AtLast · 06-14-2010, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustJo

Just peeking in...

I can answer one teeny piece of this. Olivia does allow straight cis women on the cruise. A strongly feminist (and celibate by choice) friend goes on these cruises because she prefers the time outside of the company of men.

It looks like from what Dylan found out via calling Olivia, that all cruises are open to any gender. I do know that they used to have special family cruises open to all. So, maybe their TOS have changed?

Never have gone on one of these, have thought about it, but, I don't know how I would deal with possibly being in a situation in which both B-F and transphobia might be more than just a little present. Humm... but I guess I am being stereotypic, here. Ugh... have to think about this.

Weird, I make no bones about my feminist lesbian identity, but have to say that I too, have had negative experience with some (not all) lesbian geared activities. LOL... I have a lesbian couple that lives across the street from me that stopped talking to me after they saw me in a tux a couple of years ago going to the Oakland B-F Bash!!

Also, prior to knowing them as they really are, a close FtM friend (actually the co-parent to my late partner's daughter) was visiting and they happened to be over. He is very open about his transitioning and these women were total assholes to him. He can take on gender-ignorance just fine, but I felt awful.

So, I know if I did go on a cruise and was in the midst of this kind of bigotry, it would not be good! The idea of spending all that cash for a leisure vacation and being in a space in which this went on, just doesn't sound good!

It isn't really about women's space with me, it's about discrimination and bigotry which unfortunately, goes both ways. Sucks!

Argh... when is this all going to stop with the entire LGBTIQ community?Every year during Pride, I honestly go through a roller-coaster of emotions.

TenderKnight · 06-14-2010, 12:41 PM

Well, after reading some of the posts on here, I am feeling kinda mixed, to be honest.. It's amazing how many triggers can go off while reading a thread! lol

In any case, here are some of my thoughts..

RE: Butch/trans morals and ethics when it comes to dating a friend's ex.. I take it as it comes.. If I am good friends with both, I can usually tell if it's a healthy break up that just needs time for both partners to heal, or if it is unhealthy and full of destructive behavior and hurt feelings.. In the first case, if I'm attracted to one of the partners, I will let them know, in a comfortable way, that I am interested and that I would like to date them, but I want to allow them time to heal.. Then it is up to them and we can go from there. Is it my responcibility to ask permission from the other ex partner? No.. The relationship is over. *shrugs*

In the second case, I leave it be.. It isn't healthy and I don't want to be a rebound or a way to get back at an ex.. I have been both and it hurts.

RE: Women's only space.. We got the cruise thing settled out, but when I first saw the Oblivia post by Strappie, I was thinking, "Oh god! Being stuck on a boat with a bunch of people that don't want me there? Having those "conversations" with people that don't get or don't WANT to get why I am transgender? No thanks.." It is also about giving women, (god yes, I'm using women.. female only?), females a place to feel safe and comfortable with themselves and who surround them. I *don't* belong. I will never belong in female only space. I have made my "choice" and if I expect to be respected, then I will do the same..

On a side note.. FUCKING AWESOME COMMUNICATION going on in this thread.. At Last, thank you so very much for talking TO me and not just to my post. I felt that. Thank you.

I may have more later.. Thank you all for posting and for being real.

-Tony, Asshat (not really, but it made me laugh..)

Kosmo · 06-14-2010, 02:42 PM

These are some random and not so random thoughts while I sit here at work and multi-task.

I have noticed that we do come to each others aid when there is a misconception or stereotype, but that it sometimes escalates into a gender war and that’s frustrating to see. Then femmes get involved and sometimes I wish they wouldn’t. I have been guilty of trying to speak for others when I shouldn’t have… just once (I think?). It’s not like I don’t appreciate the effort, but then those voices I want to hear from are drowned out in a way. Then the flirting and adoration exchanges start and I get annoyed. I would like to see more of us coming in to talk about what we can do to help each other. Between us and only us.

Are we less likely to find camaraderie because we’re so used to going it alone? You know the stereotypical gender aspects we’re ALL supposed to innately have that make up the brooding, loner, tough exterior, ‘I don’t need help or support’. I know we’re much more than that. It’s as if the chasm between butch/transman and femme is built just to feel/fit a need for the other and I think it limits our view of the common ground we do share.

To AtLastHome,
I think you were actually quoting me, but have DapperButch as the originator of this quote:

‘Is it because we've all had our share of struggles in negotiating the world, our self-identity, others expectations, etc. and we are more guarded and protective of that? Is it for fear of becoming left out? Is it competitive posturing for the attentions of femmes? Just throwing some stuff out there....’

So I’m going to respond to you. I don’t think you digress at all. I can’t imagine the difficulty or internal strife that transmen may have with sensing or knowing that someone is interested out of curiosity. I can only say it might be similar to someone who is interested in a butch out of curiosity.

I’ve never succumbed to the interests of someone like that. When I think about it, I know it would make me feel stripped of self. I would feel like an oddity and lose my attraction immediately.

On other thoughts, I’ve read about transmen getting gigged for not being somehow loyal to the cause or traitors when they feel they must leave the community. I find this contradictory when I think they have gotten back a lot less/if any loyalty for their cause. It wouldn't bother me personally if a transman or anyone wanted to leave the community to live their lives. See, I’m not that involved in the community, I don’t get involved in queer political issues, but doesn’t make me unloyal or unable to post my thoughts/opinions on such issues. Would it affect me if I had a transman as a friend, let’s say a friend before and during transition who needed to leave the community and alter or limit their interaction with me? Yes. It’s hard for me to say goodbye. I’m a sentimental person and I would miss them a lot. Could I try to be closeted for them in interactions to not inadvertently sell them out? No. It would be impossible for me to be something I am not. Just like it would be impossible for them. We’ve all worked through enough shit to get where we are today.

These thoughts may or may not resonate with anyone, but I find that if I don’t sometimes blurt stuff out that I’m pondering, I’ll never add to the conversation. Also, it takes me freakin’ forever to assemble that blurt into something coherent and then by the time I do post my thoughts, the conversation is 15 pages down the road!

I’ve had other thoughts, but I keep getting interrupted at work

and I can't login from there.

AtLast · 06-14-2010, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kosmo

These are some random and not so random thoughts while I sit here at work and multi-task.

I have noticed that we do come to each others aid when there is a misconception or stereotype, but that it sometimes escalates into a gender war and that’s frustrating to see. Then femmes get involved and sometimes I wish they wouldn’t. I have been guilty of trying to speak for others when I shouldn’t have… just once (I think?). It’s not like I don’t appreciate the effort, but then those voices I want to hear from are drowned out in a way. Then the flirting and adoration exchanges start and I get annoyed. I would like to see more of us coming in to talk about what we can do to help each other. Between us and only us.

Are we less likely to find camaraderie because we’re so used to going it alone? You know the stereotypical gender aspects we’re ALL supposed to innately have that make up the brooding, loner, tough exterior, ‘I don’t need help or support’. I know we’re much more than that. It’s as if the chasm between butch/transman and femme is built just to feel/fit a need for the other and I think it limits our view of the common ground we do share.

To AtLastHome,
I think you were actually quoting me, but have DapperButch as the originator of this quote:

‘Is it because we've all had our share of struggles in negotiating the world, our self-identity, others expectations, etc. and we are more guarded and protective of that? Is it for fear of becoming left out? Is it competitive posturing for the attentions of femmes? Just throwing some stuff out there....’

So I’m going to respond to you. I don’t think you digress at all. I can’t imagine the difficulty or internal strife that transmen may have with sensing or knowing that someone is interested out of curiosity. I can only say it might be similar to someone who is interested in a butch out of curiosity.

I’ve never succumbed to the interests of someone like that. When I think about it, I know it would make me feel stripped of self. I would feel like an oddity and lose my attraction immediately.

On other thoughts, I’ve read about transmen getting gigged for not being somehow loyal to the cause or traitors when they feel they must leave the community. I find this contradictory when I think they have gotten back a lot less/if any loyalty for their cause. It wouldn't bother me personally if a transman or anyone wanted to leave the community to live their lives. See, I’m not that involved in the community, I don’t get involved in queer political issues, but doesn’t make me unloyal or unable to post my thoughts/opinions on such issues. Would it affect me if I had a transman as a friend, let’s say a friend before and during transition who needed to leave the community and alter or limit their interaction with me? Yes. It’s hard for me to say goodbye. I’m a sentimental person and I would miss them a lot. Could I try to be closeted for them in interactions to not inadvertently sell them out? No. It would be impossible for me to be something I am not. Just like it would be impossible for them. We’ve all worked through enough shit to get where we are today.

These thoughts may or may not resonate with anyone, but I find that if I don’t sometimes blurt stuff out that I’m pondering, I’ll never add to the conversation. Also, it takes me freakin’ forever to assemble that blurt into something coherent and then by the time I do post my thoughts, the conversation is 15 pages down the road!

I’ve had other thoughts, but I keep getting interrupted at work

and I can't login from there.

I apologize for my goof up!

You touch on some really key issues here, thanks! Will be interesting to see what responses come along.

Ebon · 06-13-2010, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strappie

Hey Guys,

Please take my words not always literally for I am not the best at putting words into writing like some of you so eloquently do.

I am asking this from my heart and not being an ass in anyway shape or form. I'm not so "up" on my trans knowledge so please bare with me while I come up with words that do not offend anyone. And please believe me when I say this is from my heart because one of my best buds is Post-Op (he says he thinks we were separated at birth) lol

ok so here it goes....

Over at the Dash site I started a thread pertaining to the Olivia Cruise: in regards of Trans folks not being welcome on a Olivia Cruise. I wanted to ask the question but I stopped before because my previous questions stirred up some not so happy comments from folks including the owner.

My question is this, How are they to know if some random Joe Blow who has never been through a transition get on the Cruise? For real.. I'm not trying to stir up shit trust me. Can't any male just hop on the ship? How are they to know who transitioned and who hasn't? I want all my friends gay-lesbian-trans-tg-ect... to be able to enjoy the things I enjoy not because of who I am or who they are. I want equal rights for ALL.

They would have to let "everyone" on the ship? No? How could they not, are they really going to ask me if I'm really gay? Will they ask you what you are? I don't know ... I think I should make a phone call.

Well if they have that policy wouldn't the cruise attract people that mostly felt the same way?

Dylan · 06-14-2010, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strappie

Hey Guys,

Please take my words not always literally for I am not the best at putting words into writing like some of you so eloquently do.

I am asking this from my heart and not being an ass in anyway shape or form. I'm not so "up" on my trans knowledge so please bare with me while I come up with words that do not offend anyone. And please believe me when I say this is from my heart because one of my best buds is Post-Op (he says he thinks we were separated at birth) lol

ok so here it goes....

Over at the Dash site I started a thread pertaining to the Olivia Cruise: in regards of Trans folks not being welcome on a Olivia Cruise. I wanted to ask the question but I stopped before because my previous questions stirred up some not so happy comments from folks including the owner.

My question is this, How are they to know if some random Joe Blow who has never been through a transition get on the Cruise? For real.. I'm not trying to stir up shit trust me. Can't any male just hop on the ship? How are they to know who transitioned and who hasn't? I want all my friends gay-lesbian-trans-tg-ect... to be able to enjoy the things I enjoy not because of who I am or who they are. I want equal rights for ALL.

They would have to let "everyone" on the ship? No? How could they not, are they really going to ask me if I'm really gay? Will they ask you what you are? I don't know ... I think I should make a phone call.

Here's the deal with Olivia Cruises. I know this, because I called them just last week to find out (for sure...from the horse's mouth) who's welcome.

Men (all flavors) are welcome on the cruises. They ask that you please realize this is a cruise geared towards the lesbian community, but men are welcome as long as they respect that it's geared towards lesbians.

They were extremely nice to me when I called, and really stressed the point that it's not a 'women-only' space.

Not That I Plan On Going, But...There's The Info,
Dylan

06-13-2010, 10:47 PM	#2
Corkey Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Human Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Very Married Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Where I want to be Posts: 8,155 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 47,491 Thanked 29,268 Times in 6,637 Posts Rep Power: 21474859	Strappie, personally I don't care about the dash site, or what they do or don't do, I have no vested interest in that site. I know that this site and the owners are very inclusive and would not in any way be divisive to the membership. So what the owner of the other site does or doesn't do in no way effects me or mine. And take your time to express yourself, I'm in no hurry. __________________ "Many proposals have been made to us to adopt your laws, your religion, your manners and your customs. We would be better pleased with beholding the good effects of these doctrines in your own practices, than with hearing you talk about them". ~Old Tassel, Chief of the Tsalagi (Cherokee)

06-14-2010, 12:41 PM	#10
TenderKnight Member How Do You Identify?: Kinky Poly Transman Preferred Pronoun?: He Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Monroe, NC Posts: 551 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 773 Thanked 822 Times in 256 Posts Rep Power: 2402408	Well, after reading some of the posts on here, I am feeling kinda mixed, to be honest.. It's amazing how many triggers can go off while reading a thread! lol In any case, here are some of my thoughts.. RE: Butch/trans morals and ethics when it comes to dating a friend's ex.. I take it as it comes.. If I am good friends with both, I can usually tell if it's a healthy break up that just needs time for both partners to heal, or if it is unhealthy and full of destructive behavior and hurt feelings.. In the first case, if I'm attracted to one of the partners, I will let them know, in a comfortable way, that I am interested and that I would like to date them, but I want to allow them time to heal.. Then it is up to them and we can go from there. Is it my responcibility to ask permission from the other ex partner? No.. The relationship is over. shrugs In the second case, I leave it be.. It isn't healthy and I don't want to be a rebound or a way to get back at an ex.. I have been both and it hurts. RE: Women's only space.. We got the cruise thing settled out, but when I first saw the Oblivia post by Strappie, I was thinking, "Oh god! Being stuck on a boat with a bunch of people that don't want me there? Having those "conversations" with people that don't get or don't WANT to get why I am transgender? No thanks.." It is also about giving women, (god yes, I'm using women.. female only?), females a place to feel safe and comfortable with themselves and who surround them. I don't belong. I will never belong in female only space. I have made my "choice" and if I expect to be respected, then I will do the same.. On a side note.. FUCKING AWESOME COMMUNICATION going on in this thread.. At Last, thank you so very much for talking TO me and not just to my post. I felt that. Thank you. I may have more later.. Thank you all for posting and for being real. -Tony, Asshat (not really, but it made me laugh..) __________________ The beatings shall continue.. until moral improves.. Last edited by TenderKnight; 06-14-2010 at 12:45 PM. Reason: I need to edit my spelling before i post :(

06-13-2010, 10:41 PM	#1
Strappie Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Butch Preferred Pronoun?: I know who I am... Doesn't matter Relationship Status: It's a new day.... Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 3,283 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 3,813 Thanked 4,945 Times in 1,350 Posts Rep Power: 21474855	Hey Guys, Please take my words not always literally for I am not the best at putting words into writing like some of you so eloquently do. I am asking this from my heart and not being an ass in anyway shape or form. I'm not so "up" on my trans knowledge so please bare with me while I come up with words that do not offend anyone. And please believe me when I say this is from my heart because one of my best buds is Post-Op (he says he thinks we were separated at birth) lol ok so here it goes.... Over at the Dash site I started a thread pertaining to the Olivia Cruise: in regards of Trans folks not being welcome on a Olivia Cruise. I wanted to ask the question but I stopped before because my previous questions stirred up some not so happy comments from folks including the owner. My question is this, How are they to know if some random Joe Blow who has never been through a transition get on the Cruise? For real.. I'm not trying to stir up shit trust me. Can't any male just hop on the ship? How are they to know who transitioned and who hasn't? I want all my friends gay-lesbian-trans-tg-ect... to be able to enjoy the things I enjoy not because of who I am or who they are. I want equal rights for ALL. They would have to let "everyone" on the ship? No? How could they not, are they really going to ask me if I'm really gay? Will they ask you what you are? I don't know ... I think I should make a phone call.

06-13-2010, 10:59 PM	#3
Strappie Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Butch Preferred Pronoun?: I know who I am... Doesn't matter Relationship Status: It's a new day.... Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 3,283 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 3,813 Thanked 4,945 Times in 1,350 Posts Rep Power: 21474855	Corkey, Thanks for not taking my words wrong. I find it a bit absurd that they would allow Men to go on the Cruise. They might as well open it up if they do that. I guess at this point I'm frustrated with the decision they made because I do know some do not feel it would be a welcoming place for them. I've heard a couple of times, "why would I support a function that is for "women" only.

06-13-2010, 11:01 PM	#6
Kosmo Member How Do You Identify?: just me Preferred Pronoun?: he Relationship Status: This seat is taken Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Buckeye Posts: 210 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 180 Thanked 274 Times in 119 Posts Rep Power: 227089	Strappie, I don't know who Olivia markets their cruises to now. I know how they initially did. They probably have a website you can check.

06-14-2010, 02:42 PM	#11
Kosmo Member How Do You Identify?: just me Preferred Pronoun?: he Relationship Status: This seat is taken Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Buckeye Posts: 210 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 180 Thanked 274 Times in 119 Posts Rep Power: 227089	These are some random and not so random thoughts while I sit here at work and multi-task. I have noticed that we do come to each others aid when there is a misconception or stereotype, but that it sometimes escalates into a gender war and that’s frustrating to see. Then femmes get involved and sometimes I wish they wouldn’t. I have been guilty of trying to speak for others when I shouldn’t have… just once (I think?). It’s not like I don’t appreciate the effort, but then those voices I want to hear from are drowned out in a way. Then the flirting and adoration exchanges start and I get annoyed. I would like to see more of us coming in to talk about what we can do to help each other. Between us and only us. Are we less likely to find camaraderie because we’re so used to going it alone? You know the stereotypical gender aspects we’re ALL supposed to innately have that make up the brooding, loner, tough exterior, ‘I don’t need help or support’. I know we’re much more than that. It’s as if the chasm between butch/transman and femme is built just to feel/fit a need for the other and I think it limits our view of the common ground we do share. To AtLastHome, I think you were actually quoting me, but have DapperButch as the originator of this quote: ‘Is it because we've all had our share of struggles in negotiating the world, our self-identity, others expectations, etc. and we are more guarded and protective of that? Is it for fear of becoming left out? Is it competitive posturing for the attentions of femmes? Just throwing some stuff out there....’ So I’m going to respond to you. I don’t think you digress at all. I can’t imagine the difficulty or internal strife that transmen may have with sensing or knowing that someone is interested out of curiosity. I can only say it might be similar to someone who is interested in a butch out of curiosity. I’ve never succumbed to the interests of someone like that. When I think about it, I know it would make me feel stripped of self. I would feel like an oddity and lose my attraction immediately. On other thoughts, I’ve read about transmen getting gigged for not being somehow loyal to the cause or traitors when they feel they must leave the community. I find this contradictory when I think they have gotten back a lot less/if any loyalty for their cause. It wouldn't bother me personally if a transman or anyone wanted to leave the community to live their lives. See, I’m not that involved in the community, I don’t get involved in queer political issues, but doesn’t make me unloyal or unable to post my thoughts/opinions on such issues. Would it affect me if I had a transman as a friend, let’s say a friend before and during transition who needed to leave the community and alter or limit their interaction with me? Yes. It’s hard for me to say goodbye. I’m a sentimental person and I would miss them a lot. Could I try to be closeted for them in interactions to not inadvertently sell them out? No. It would be impossible for me to be something I am not. Just like it would be impossible for them. We’ve all worked through enough shit to get where we are today. These thoughts may or may not resonate with anyone, but I find that if I don’t sometimes blurt stuff out that I’m pondering, I’ll never add to the conversation. Also, it takes me freakin’ forever to assemble that blurt into something coherent and then by the time I do post my thoughts, the conversation is 15 pages down the road! I’ve had other thoughts, but I keep getting interrupted at work and I can't login from there.