Open Letter: Dear Femme

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by bonne-maman

Jesus fuck, I do have to say that it is wonderful that both here and in the female-IDed butch thread that we are talking about anti-lesbian stuff openly. Whew. I feel that giant chip about to slip off of my shoulder.

Well.

I guess I may as well own it publicly.

I have definitely been guilty of some anti-lesbian posturing. Just because I have been treated badly by some lesbians in some spaces, does not make it acceptable for me to be "anti-lesbian." No sir/ma'am.

And by having held that position, I can see where when I have been playful (in particular with you, Bonne) that maybe it's hard to distinguish when I'm being a dick and when I'm playing. And really, how would anyone know the difference. So, yeah, I'm going to do some work there.

[bonne-maman]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Well.

I guess I may as well own it publicly.

I have definitely been guilty of some anti-lesbian posturing. Just because I have been treated badly by some lesbians in some spaces, does not make it acceptable for me to be "anti-lesbian." No sir/ma'am.

And by having held that position, I can see where when I have been playful (in particular with you, Bonne) that maybe it's hard to distinguish when I'm being a dick and when I'm playing. And really, how would anyone know the difference. So, yeah, I'm going to do some work there.

Well, even though I have never felt anything but sweetness in your playing around with me Mr. Clark Kent, I have seen you be a bit biting around cyber town at times. I appreciate you saying this, it means a lot to me coming from a guyperson type like you. I guess some of the most hurtful things about lesbians I have encountered on these sites is when a butch or guytype person says "I would never date a lesbian." This makes me feel pretty much like shit. It's hard to read something like that without internalizing it.

I know I am kinda derailing, but I don't feel like making a, "why don't you wanna date lesbians?" thread. Besides, I'll live, I got better things to do than cry about people I don't know who don't wanna date me!

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Passionaria

What purpose does keeping women in competition serve on a sociological level? Control of women??????

Maybe the real power is in loving our selves so completely that we believe we deserve to be loved, just because we exist. Then what is there to compete about?

Passionaria

Hi Passionaria,

I believe that men/masculine others are also in this competitive tension with one another, so, for me, there is the question of the Darwinian aim that I spoke to earlier. We are, most of us, looking for a mate. I disbelieve the Patriarchy has tooled a competition solely among women in order to establish control of us (it seems to create more chaos than order), but I do see mechanisms of control in the methods we undertake in order to compete, i.e. clothing, cosmetics, socially prescribed behaviors.

As to the seeming pandemic of "unworthiness" we seem to suffer. I wonder about the ways in which we have so thoroughly disconnected from nature (feminine?) and from one another in this Western, individualist culture that dominates us. The more unworthy we feel, the more we will consume. This, of course, props up the capitalist structure our patriarchy has established. And round and round we go.

Originally Posted by bonne-maman

I know I am kinda derailing, but I don't feel like making a, "why don't you wanna date lesbians?" thread. Besides, I'll live, I got better things to do than cry about people I don't know who don't wanna date me!

I like the idea of this thread, bonney. Even if I don't want to date them either. I understand that for them it has to do with not being a woman and that this is the strict definition they have of lesbian, but I am not ready to give up Lesbian and I'm not sure I ever will be. I don't care if it's political for me and that gets on your nerves. It is also personal. It is my story, how I came into this queer life. I honor it.

Thank you and the end.

[SuperFemme]

How do We meet at a crossroads regarding the L word?

How do we make sure *not* to visit the sins of others upon the innocent without negating everyone's truth?

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

How do We meet at a crossroads regarding the L word?

How do we make sure *not* to visit the sins of others upon the innocent without negating everyone's truth?

Can you say more?

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Lynn

Can you say more?

I am mulling over in my head how people come in and say "I was shunned and ostracized by the Lesbian community" because it is their truth.

I am mulling over in my head the people that ARE the Lesbian community coming in and being hurt beyond measure because They did NOT participate in such hurtful behavior and it is NOT their truth.

Both groups of people have valid points and feelings that are in complete contradiction.

How DO WE get around this?

[apretty]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I am mulling over in my head how people come in and say "I was shunned and ostracized by the Lesbian community" because it is their truth.

I am mulling over in my head the people that ARE the Lesbian community coming in and being hurt beyond measure because They did NOT participate in such hurtful behavior and it is NOT their truth.

Both groups of people have valid points and feelings that are in complete contradiction.

How DO WE get around this?

i'm so glad that this has been brought up, i feel so *protective* of the lesbian community, (whenever i hear it bashed) tho i really don't ID as lesbian, simply stated i've got more in common with *her* than not.

(lately--post prop 8--i'm thinking more about aligning ourselves, vs. our few 'differences')

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I am mulling over in my head how people come in and say "I was shunned and ostracized by the Lesbian community" because it is their truth.

I am mulling over in my head the people that ARE the Lesbian community coming in and being hurt beyond measure because They did NOT participate in such hurtful behavior and it is NOT their truth.

Both groups of people have valid points and feelings that are in complete contradiction.

How DO WE get around this?

Maybe we could start by not generalizing to an entire community when speaking about individual experiences. I am suspicious about the existence of an actual lesbian community. Or, for that matter, a butch femme community or any other worldwide experience of community. Any lesbian who went out of her way to ostracize an individual, or who got a bunch of her friends to join in on the meanness is not someone who is in *my* lesbian community.

Have you seen the posts (mine included) that put in disclaimers and small print to utterly ensure that this is no one else's viewpoint but the poster's. When, in fact, that's all any one of us can speak to at any time, no matter how sweeping and all-inclusive our language gets.

On line, there are different levels of education, worldliness, writing and speaking abililties, intelligences, etc. No d'uh. We know this, but yet we often don't give each other a fucking break. I think when we're discussing different points of view, we just offer a little kindness and benefit of the doubt and that could go a long way toward avoiding pissing wars. Sarcasm and insults should be relegated to the fun and fluff threads.

My lesbian warrior with great hair identity is not threatened by anyone's babygirl identity, lesbian or not. Don't be afraid of me. I love you and I mean it.

[Boots13]

Originally Posted by evolveme

Hi Passionaria,

I believe that men/masculine others are also in this competitive tension with one another, so, for me, there is the question of the Darwinian aim that I spoke to earlier. We are, most of us, looking for a mate. I disbelieve the Patriarchy has tooled a competition solely among women in order to establish control of us (it seems to create more chaos than order), but I do see mechanisms of control in the methods we undertake in order to compete, i.e. clothing, cosmetics, socially prescribed behaviors.

.

Bravo Bravo Bravo !!! I feel like school is in session this subject and post has my rapt attention !

so can I offer this personal perspective about prescribed behaviors ?

I am assuming those prescribed (patriarchal-induced) behaviors to be quiet, malleable, supportive, complacent?

I stated to Fru, during one of our roundabouts (read, arguments) Jezzuz, you've got a streak ...Yes, I SAID THAT to the person I love, admire and cherish most in the world...my heart of hearts !

But what I've come to appreciate is that I rely on that streak ! I hate being in the sights of the femme howitzer, but I know that it comes from her place of strength, Independence and that "don't fuck with me" undercurrent of confidence, all wrapped in a Southern Charm that is completely disarming !

Nice and pretty (though she undoubtedly is ) isn't going to
singlehandedly protect her or us. I love knowing that her streak is borne of hardship, life experience and a clear vision for HER future. I am blessed to be a part of that. I know that I am safe with her.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Boots13

Bravo Bravo Bravo !!! I feel like school is in session this subject and post has my rapt attention !

so can I offer this personal perspective about prescribed behaviors ?

I am assuming those prescribed (patriarchal-induced) behaviors to be quiet, malleable, supportive, complacent?

I stated to Fru, during one of our roundabouts (read, arguments) Jezzuz, you've got a streak ...Yes, I SAID THAT to the person I love, admire and cherish most in the world...my heart of hearts !

But what I've come to appreciate is that I rely on that streak ! I hate being in the sights of the femme howitzer, but I know that it comes from her place of strength, Independence and that "don't fuck with me" undercurrent of confidence, all wrapped in a Southern Charm that is completely disarming !

Nice and pretty (though she undoubtedly is ) isn't going to
singlehandedly protect her or us. I love knowing that her streak is borne of hardship, life experience and a clear vision for HER future. I am blessed to be a part of that. I know that I am safe with her.

Boots, I want you to know that I am really, really glad you're here and listening AND participating.

On my first reading of your post, I was quietly pleased. I identified with Fru.

On second reading, I had to stop a minute. I asked myself, "What about when we aren't 'all wrapped in Southern charm?" What about when we aren't sweet and nice and pretty? What about when we do not see ourselves as your safety or your comfort?

When we're called too abrasive, or The Bitch, because we do not meet the standard that has been set for us. Because we are clearing our own path and making our own decisions in a world that would do anything to name us incapable of the task?

What about That Femme? I think she lives in all of us. Some of us are less afraid to show her, maybe.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Boots13

Bravo Bravo Bravo !!! I feel like school is in session this subject and post has my rapt attention !

so can I offer this personal perspective about prescribed behaviors ?

I am assuming those prescribed (patriarchal-induced) behaviors to be quiet, malleable, supportive, complacent?

I stated to Fru, during one of our roundabouts (read, arguments) Jezzuz, you've got a streak ...Yes, I SAID THAT to the person I love, admire and cherish most in the world...my heart of hearts !

But what I've come to appreciate is that I rely on that streak ! I hate being in the sights of the femme howitzer, but I know that it comes from her place of strength, Independence and that "don't fuck with me" undercurrent of confidence, all wrapped in a Southern Charm that is completely disarming !

Nice and pretty (though she undoubtedly is ) isn't going to
singlehandedly protect her or us. I love knowing that her streak is borne of hardship, life experience and a clear vision for HER future. I am blessed to be a part of that. I know that I am safe with her.

I'm quoting your whole post cuz I don't want to take it out of context.

But it speaks to me of that femme disconnect. That idea that there exists two sides to a femme, the bitch and the angel. When in reality, both are present at all times.

For me, it's not a "streak" of strength. I'll shank someone NICELY anytime.

[T D]

I'd like to know exactly what you mean by "male centric"

[Bit]

Originally Posted by T D

I'd like to know exactly what you mean by "male centric"

That's a huge question, TD, and may take a long time to answer, if we can ever completely define it at all. For a start--a very oversimplified start--the general idea is that we have all been socialized to equate "male" with "best, most worthy" and "female" with "least, unworthy" and so we bring that into our interactions in everyday life and online both, equating Butch with male and therefore devaluing Femme. The trick is to understand when we are doing that, and why... sometimes when one or the other of us points it out, it's very hard on people who are not used to being analytical or who haven't taken women's studies classes, because they don't have the frame of reference they need to see it properly--they can often get offended and hurt by other people's attempts to explain. It can be hard to create a community culture that is understandable to everyone given our different backgrounds and educations.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by T D

I'd like to know exactly what you mean by "male centric"

TD, I'd like to know to whom you're directing this question and the tone with which you ask it.

[Boots13]

Originally Posted by blush

I'm quoting your whole post cuz I don't want to take it out of context.

But it speaks to me of that femme disconnect. That idea that there exists two sides to a femme, the bitch and the angel. When in reality, both are present at all times.

For me, it's not a "streak" of strength. I'll shank someone NICELY anytime.

Originally Posted by evolveme

...On second reading, I had to stop a minute. I asked myself, "What about when we aren't 'all wrapped in Southern charm?" What about when we aren't sweet and nice and pretty? What about when we do not see ourselves as your safety or your comfort?

When we're called too abrasive, or The Bitch, because we do not meet the standard that has been set for us. Because we are clearing our own path and making our own decisions in a world that would do anything to name us incapable of the task?

What about That Femme? I think she lives in all of us. Some of us are less afraid to show her, maybe.

I stand corrected, and rightfully so. I was inadvertently dismissive when I described her quality as a streak...it isn't that transient (to be a streak) it's a quality borne of her life experiences and her assertiveness and the vision she has of her future. So starts my lesson.

Addressing a disconnect between "bitch and angel" (Blushes words!) ...I wish she was here so that we could kick this can around...I wonder if /when she feels that? Though I feel I would be speaking out of turn to comment on her feelings.
I cant wait til we talk tonight ...now I want to dig into this with her!

But pondering my "feeling safe" thing. This feeling is new for me. I trust her, with my heart and I trust her with our future, one that we are building together...and from this trust comes a feeling of safety. Who she is (separate and independent from the "us" that we are creating) is where the trust started. Her values, her code, her strengths, her armor, her fierceness, her assertiveness, her charm, her manners, her emotions. She is not just one of these, but an ever shifting culmination of these qualities and more.

This thread has my head spinning...

I am engrossed in the different discussions going on here, and thrilled with the information and personal opinion that is being presented.

[Passionaria]

Originally Posted by evolveme

Hi Passionaria,


I believe that men/masculine others are also in this competitive tension with one another, so, for me, there is the question of the Darwinian aim that I spoke to earlier. We are, most of us, looking for a mate. I disbelieve the Patriarchy has tooled a competition solely among women in order to establish control of us (it seems to create more chaos than order), but I do see mechanisms of control in the methods we undertake in order to compete, i.e. clothing, cosmetics, socially prescribed behaviors.

As to the seeming pandemic of "unworthiness" we seem to suffer. I wonder about the ways in which we have so thoroughly disconnected from nature (feminine?) and from one another in this Western, individualist culture that dominates us. The more unworthy we feel, the more we will consume. This, of course, props up the capitalist structure our patriarchy has established. And round and round we go.

.

Hi Evolveme,
This is a great conversation.I think the chaos serves a purpose. It defuses power, it's been used as a tool for centuries. All of that existed before mass consumerism, although the competition does fuel capitalism wonderfully.

Christianity was the disconnect with the divine feminine. And that was about controlling the masses. We were born into sin, basically unworthy unless we follow XYZ,to redeem ourselves, presets determined by men in power, who mandated that women carry the sin of the world, the original sin. I think this is a huge factor in why we in this culture anyway believe we are not worthy of being loved.