It's Time to Boycott Arizona

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Linus:

You bring up a really good point--the *real* problems America are facing aren't really related to immigration. Compared to the effects of letting our education system falter and turning our backs on science, they are trivial. Compared to allowing American corporations to move their headquarters off-shore to avoid paying corporate taxes or moving jobs overseas, immigration just fades into the background. Compared to a trillion dollar defense budget all the social services *combined* do not even begin to compete for the amount of weight they have on the economy.

But improving the education system is a long-term project and will require more money with the payoff being intangible, so we don't want to do that. Passing laws that reward good business behavior and punish bad business behavior are difficult so we don't want to do that heavy lifting either. Cutting back our defense spending by, say, half gores way too many sacred cows. Immigrants are easy. They are nice slow-moving target and have the added virtue of large numbers of immigrants looking substantially different than the majority so blaming them is the path we've chosen in this country. Why do the hard thing that will require courage, sacrifice and will when there's a ready-made scapegoat right at hand?

Yes, it's cynical but that doesn't mean it's wrong.

Cheers
Aj

From what I read in this thread, I think I am the only one who doesnt have a problem with the Arizona attempt to curb illegal immigration. I say kudos for having the gonads to tackle a problem no one else has the guts to deal with.

It is easy to say we shouldnt deal with immigration issues because there are other more pressing problems affecting the country. Unfortunately, we use this excuse to avoid dealing with many issues because no one wants to be seen as the bad guy about any issue.

Illegal immigrations costs us taxpayers billions and billions a year in services i.e. education and health care plus immigration costs of housing illegals awaiting deportation hearings and providing them with legal representation to name just a few.

With the downturn in the economy and Americans struggling to find work, my allegiance is with the people who belong here, not with those who deliberately circumvented the laws because they wanted to do so. That type of selfish, self serving behavior is insulting.

One can only wonder what these people might be able to achieve if they put their energy to work in changing the conditions in their own countries rather than invading others.

[MsDemeanor]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Illegal immigrations costs us taxpayers billions and billions a year in services i.e. education and health care plus immigration costs of housing illegals awaiting deportation hearings and providing them with legal representation to name just a few.

Billions and billions? Go check your facts.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by MsDemeanor

Billions and billions? Go check your facts.

I know my facts. Conservative estimate in 2004 was illegal immigrants costing taxpayers 10 billion a year.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Aug25.html

[Corkey]

The problem I have is that this law has no distinction between law abiding American Latinos and American Native peoples and immeragrents who have come here seeking jobs that most Americans won't do. It is racist and is racial profiling at it's worst. Any one who isn't lilly white will be subject to this unreasonable search and seizure law. It is basic discrimination, cloaked in states rights. It is unjust, unfair, and totally unreasonable.
I do think we need to do the hard work of reform, but not at the risk of American citizens being jailed for not having their birth certificates on them.
All American citizens have the bill of rights to use, their 5th amendment right of self incrimination, but they shouldn't have to use this as they have every right to be here, they are US.

[MsDemeanor]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I know my facts. Conservative estimate in 2004 was illegal immigrants costing taxpayers 10 billion a year.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Aug25.html

This is a short newspaper article about a six year old study from an anti-immigrant organization. That's not "facts".

[weatherboi]

Hey Kobi!!!

What is important to recognize from the article you posted is that the study includes the social impact that undocumented workers kids have on the system but what Camarotas' study doesnt include is the impact their future contributuions will make on our society. Camarotas number one concern back in 2004 was to make these numbers as big as he could. The article is bogus and not a good measure for reform because it is so slanted.

Grant

Originally Posted by Kobi

I know my facts. Conservative estimate in 2004 was illegal immigrants costing taxpayers 10 billion a year.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Aug25.html

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Kobi

From what I read in this thread, I think I am the only one who doesnt have a problem with the Arizona attempt to curb illegal immigration. I say kudos for having the gonads to tackle a problem no one else has the guts to deal with.

It is easy to say we shouldnt deal with immigration issues because there are other more pressing problems affecting the country. Unfortunately, we use this excuse to avoid dealing with many issues because no one wants to be seen as the bad guy about any issue.

Illegal immigrations costs us taxpayers billions and billions a year in services i.e. education and health care plus immigration costs of housing illegals awaiting deportation hearings and providing them with legal representation to name just a few.

With the downturn in the economy and Americans struggling to find work, my allegiance is with the people who belong here, not with those who deliberately circumvented the laws because they wanted to do so. That type of selfish, self serving behavior is insulting.


WOW you gotta be fucking kidding me... Cause Kobi no one is stopping any *American* from getting their ass out there and picking fucking veggies for the *American Supper Table* I don't see anyone standing in line or pushing these undocumented workers to shovel our sidewalks in the winter or fucking make those lawns look all pretty.. I mean for fucks sakes, no one stops anyone or keeps anyone from doing these god damn glorious jobs.


One can only wonder what these people might be able to achieve if they put their energy to work in changing the conditions in their own countries rather than invading others.

My allegiance is with a people who are being pegged and have a fucking spot light shown on them now because of their color. I can't believe how you think that these human being are taking the jobs of hard working American's who are out there competing for them.. You need to look around more Kobi you fucking seriously do...

PS

When my momma came over here all illegal and shit, she did not cheat ANYONE out of the maids job she got...

[apretty]

i'm not in the sort of mood to educate today, so you'll just have to trust me:

your (gonadal?!) statement is both misguided and illogical; a stupid and an overtly simplistic, racist view of our history of scapegoating (pick your brown person and odds are you'll come up with someone whos people are/have been disenfranchised) and continues to go on (scapegoating works!) in this state (AZ) and in pockets of shit-hole towns throughout this (USA) country.


so if you know a racist that needs a job, that thinks a mexican took his/her job, i have just the thing for you:

http://www.takeourjobs.org/

please educate yourself. or don't.

Originally Posted by Kobi

From what I read in this thread, I think I am the only one who doesnt have a problem with the Arizona attempt to curb illegal immigration. I say kudos for having the gonads to tackle a problem no one else has the guts to deal with.

It is easy to say we shouldnt deal with immigration issues because there are other more pressing problems affecting the country. Unfortunately, we use this excuse to avoid dealing with many issues because no one wants to be seen as the bad guy about any issue.

Illegal immigrations costs us taxpayers billions and billions a year in services i.e. education and health care plus immigration costs of housing illegals awaiting deportation hearings and providing them with legal representation to name just a few.

With the downturn in the economy and Americans struggling to find work, my allegiance is with the people who belong here, not with those who deliberately circumvented the laws because they wanted to do so. That type of selfish, self serving behavior is insulting.

One can only wonder what these people might be able to achieve if they put their energy to work in changing the conditions in their own countries rather than invading others.

[MsDemeanor]

Originally Posted by apretty;139652
[URL

http://www.takeourjobs.org/[/URL]

This is hella smart.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by MsDemeanor

This is hella smart.

Yup! it is!

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by apretty

i'm not in the sort of mood to educate today, so you'll just have to trust me:

your (gonadal) statement is both misguided and illogical; a stupid and an overtly simplistic, racist view of our history of scapegoating (pick your brown person and odds are you'll come up with someone whos people are/have been disenfranchised) and continues to go on (scapegoating works!) in this state (AZ) and in pockets of shit-hole towns throughout this (USA) country.


so if you know a racist that needs a job, that thinks a mexican took his/her job, i have just the thing for you:

http://www.takeourjobs.org/

please educate yourself. or don't.

And I need to add the numbers of white, middle and upper middle-class LDS polygamous offshoot people with dozens of children on welfare!! Take a gander at how much taxpayer money goes to these people! And the men that have fathered all of these kids are only financially responsible for those within the marriage that is legally recognized.

I get really ticked with the BS advocated about immigrant (yes, illegal) social service and education taking from US citizens. Not to mention corporate welfare in the US!!

The fact of the matter is, big Agriculture (and service industry) businesses have been bringing in illegal’s to work at shit wages for decades and is the culprit with how many illegal’s are here. Frankly, they should be footing the bills for illegal’s here. And citizenship should be moved along for these people so that they are part of the tax base and can live here and prosper and see their children have education and opportunity. And please universe, get Latino [populations especially registered to vote en masse! This is the fastest growing population in the US today and they need some political clout!

The taking our jobs argument is just plain incorrect! Yes, educate yourself and stop knee-jerk talking-point responses!! Get the damn facts!

[Kobi]

It is always amusing how if you dont not ascribe to the knee jerk bleeding heart liberal stance , one is subject to ridicule and rudeness. Im used to it here.

It does not diminsh the fact that illegal workers diminish the wages of Americans....why pay more for American workers when we can go get illegal day laborers for a mere fraction of a living wage. It also undermines our overall standard of living. But, why focus on those facts when we can resort to how Americans dont want to do real labor.

Funny, how our economy is in the tank and I see more Americans doing landscaping and general labor work this year then ever. A job is a job, and our priority should be to citizens and those here legally.

Companies can use H2 visas and get workers here legally to do "scut work". One does not have to resort to illegal people.

But, as I said, it is easier for knee jerk liberals to be profane and rude then to inject any rhyme or reason into the situation. Preying on emotions rather than facts is sad but customary.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Kobi

It is always amusing how if you dont not ascribe to the knee jerk bleeding heart liberal stance , one is subject to ridicule and rudeness. Im used to it here.

It does not diminsh the fact that illegal workers diminish the wages of Americans....why pay more for American workers when we can go get illegal day laborers for a mere fraction of a living wage. It also undermines our overall standard of living. But, why focus on those facts when we can resort to how Americans dont want to do real labor.

Funny, how our economy is in the tank and I see more Americans doing landscaping and general labor work this year then ever. A job is a job, and our priority should be to citizens and those here legally.

Companies can use H2 visas and get workers here legally to do "scut work". One does not have to resort to illegal people.

But, as I said, it is easier for knee jerk liberals to be profane and rude then to inject any rhyme or reason into the situation. Preying on emotions rather than facts is sad but customary.

I was rude, I will continue to be rude as long as people come in here with their bullshit about how we take ya'lls jobs..


It's clear Kobi, I don't see no white folks out in the fields picking your pack of peppers...

Like I said look around out of your white zone once in a while...

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I was rude, I will continue to be rude as long as people come in here with their bullshit about how we take ya'lls jobs..


It's clear Kobi, I don't see no white folks out in the fields picking your pack of peppers...

Like I said look around out of your white zone once in a while...

How incredibly racist and presumptuous of you.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Kobi

How incredibly racist and presumptuous of you.

oh please....

You come up on in here and start saying how we take your jobs, and how Americans are suffering from job loss due to Latinos and you want to call me presumptuous and racist..

All my people were wet backs Kobi, all of them, I am too.

So don't tell me how we take your jobs, we do jobs American's don't wanna get up off their asses and do including raising their children

[Corkey]

Kobi, sincerely, there is no such thing as an illegal person. Undocumented certainly, but illegal, no. The knee jerk reaction as you call it is that you have voiced what FUAX news wants to be repeated, it isn't news and it isn't correct. White americans will not do the jobs that undocumented immeragrents do, that is a fact. Please I grew up in a very Latino rich county. All the farm workers were paid a below minimum wage, the farm owners can't afford to pay them more, because we don't pay the farmer a decent dollar for the produce we consume. It is an economic nightmare that these undocumented face. Human rights for all, or none of us have them.

[Kobi]

[Corkey,

I hear what you are saying. I could respond in kind i.e. saying people are undocumented rather than illegal is just a marketing ploy to take legal immigration out of the picture and make ilegal immigration more palatable.

And, illegals or undocumented workers do not only take "menial jobs". I have worked with many who are doing office type work and quite proud to tell me how they came here on a visitors visa or a student visa with no intention of ever leaving.

The media hype works both ways. You can say I listen to the wrong media but then again what makes yours the correct one?

It is all in the eyes of the beholder. None of us know the "truth". And to espouse one truth is more right than another is wrong.

We are a country of immigrants. My grandparents were immigrants. Tho they came in legally and put up with waiting lists and quotas and racism.

I may not agree with your take on things but I respect your right to feel differently. And, I dont have the need to be rude or belittling about it. It doesnt make either of us right or wrong. It just means we see it differently.

Wow. Thats how a respectful conversation evolves.



QUOTE=Corkey;139717]Kobi, sincerely, there is no such thing as an illegal person. Undocumented certainly, but illegal, no. The knee jerk reaction as you call it is that you have voiced what FUAX news wants to be repeated, it isn't news and it isn't correct. White americans will not do the jobs that undocumented immeragrents do, that is a fact. Please I grew up in a very Latino rich county. All the farm workers were paid a below minimum wage, the farm owners can't afford to pay them more, because we don't pay the farmer a decent dollar for the produce we consume. It is an economic nightmare that these undocumented face. Human rights for all, or none of us have them.[/QUOTE]

[SuperFemme]

i'd like to donate a week long vacation to el salvador, guatamala, bolivia, and mexico (resort towns not applicable) to the next person who comes in here and bitches about the audacity of those sneaking across the border.

You know, you never can really know until you walk a mile in somebody elses shoes....

[Corkey]

Ok Kobi, I don't just get my news, I lived it. I may be progressive, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong. Yes most americans are immigrants, not all. You see this law will target anyone who has brown skin, Latinos and Natives who have been here before there were any Europeans. As far as I'm concerned it is the Europeans who are here illegally. They stole our lands and now they want to take our citizenship. Well I for one am not going anywhere, and I am fighting this heinious law. Live in your white neighborhoods, just remember they were stolen from MY people.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Kobi

[Corkey,

I hear what you are saying. I could respond in kind i.e. saying people are undocumented rather than illegal is just a marketing ploy to take legal immigration out of the picture and make ilegal immigration more palatable.

And, illegals or undocumented workers do not only take "menial jobs". I have worked with many who are doing office type work and quite proud to tell me how they came here on a visitors visa or a student visa with no intention of ever leaving.

The media hype works both ways. You can say I listen to the wrong media but then again what makes yours the correct one?

It is all in the eyes of the beholder. None of us know the "truth". And to espouse one truth is more right than another is wrong.

We are a country of immigrants. My grandparents were immigrants. Tho they came in legally and put up with waiting lists and quotas and racism.

I may not agree with your take on things but I respect your right to feel differently. And, I dont have the need to be rude or belittling about it. It doesnt make either of us right or wrong. It just means we see it differently.

Wow. Thats how a respectful conversation evolves.



QUOTE=Corkey;139717]Kobi, sincerely, there is no such thing as an illegal person. Undocumented certainly, but illegal, no. The knee jerk reaction as you call it is that you have voiced what FUAX news wants to be repeated, it isn't news and it isn't correct. White americans will not do the jobs that undocumented immeragrents do, that is a fact. Please I grew up in a very Latino rich county. All the farm workers were paid a below minimum wage, the farm owners can't afford to pay them more, because we don't pay the farmer a decent dollar for the produce we consume. It is an economic nightmare that these undocumented face. Human rights for all, or none of us have them.

[/QUOTE]

Kobi, you have every right to your opinion on all of this. I differ, many others do as well. I really do believe you are not getting factual information, however, about immigrant (both legal/undocumented/illegal) workers. Also, those on the student visa's etc. are here doing a job totally within the law. If they believe they will be able to stay in the US in light of what is going on, they are mistaken. There will be immigration reform. My hope is that this reform stops how these workers are treated here. The bigotry against Latin populations in the US is sickening.

Also, just making the kinds of assumptions you are about a person working here under a visa and wanting to stay is bothersome. Why someone that is better employed (than what is available from their home country), getting an education and, oh.. paying taxes as a immigrant with a visa (it is a legal status, thus reports for income are made to the IRS and and state taxing agency necessary), wreaks of racism to me. Why are you even talking about such people in this discussion? Frankly, folks with an education job skills seem like people I want here! I hope the visa process leads to citizenship for them!

I like you, Kobi, but I am having a problem with this. Just have to disagree, I guess. But, I hope you will begin research on the fact that it is whites that are the largest population of welfare in the United States, bar none! Not, non-whites or immigrants (illegal or otherwise). And all poor people without health insurance are using our public health care funding! I don't mind this, either. Health care is a right, not a privilege as far as I'm concerned and when people are not able to have things like communicable diseases treated... it becomes a health risk for all. This very same thing happens all around the world. Why do you think traveling persons need to get certain shots?

I am not blind to there being less and less funding available for social services, education, etc. But I do not buy that this is due to illegal immigrants. Stop and take a look at how funding is done in this country as a matter of politics.